Accelerating Progress: U.S. Surface Transportation Research

The Subcommittee on Research and Technology will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. I'd like to begin by recognizing myself for an opening statement for five minutes. Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to today's Research and Technology Subcommittee hearing entitled " Accelerating Progress, US Surface Transportation Research." The U. S. transportation system underpins the American economy and the movement of goods across our nation. Surface transportation, including our roadways, vehicles, and supporting infrastructure, plays a central role in that success. This infrastructure is critical to American prosperity and touches the daily lives of nearly everyone in our country. It is especially important for Congress to assess the state of research and development in this area as we work to authorize key surface transportation programs. Congress's surface transportation reauthorizations fund infrastructure project and support R and D initiatives tied to our nation's transportation systems. This subcommittee oversees the that research in technology titles within each of these bills which have helped drive meaningful transportation research at major American universities we will hear more about this work today, from Mr. Winfrey and Dr. Liu. As we look ahead, it is important to consider the full scope of ongoing surface transportation research. Understanding these effects will help inform the committee's work to strengthen infrastructure and advance innovation here in America. For example, Congress must examine vulnerabilities within our transportation system. We must ensure America's transportation systems are not susceptible to interference or attack from geopolitical competitors like the Chinese Communist Party. Imagine, if you will, a scenario in which global positioning system capabilities commonly used in vehicles were disrupted, and could not quickly be restored. Emergency services such as fire-fighting agencies could face delays, reaching people in need. Beyond emergency response, a GPS disruption would ripple through freight and logistics networks that rely on real-time routing to move goods nationwide. Delivery schedules would falter, supply chains would slow, and costs would rise for businesses and consumers alike. Competitors could also target other connected such as traffic management networks or vehicle to infrastructure communications to cause widespread disruptions without ever physically damaging a single road or bridge. Artificial intelligence will also play a critical role in transforming our transportation system. Having served as co-chair of the bipartisan House AI task force last Congress, I have seen firsthand how swiftly American innovation in AI is advancing. These technologies have growing application in transportation, from congestion analysis to intelligent vehicle systems. AI-powered traffic signals can adjust their operations in real time based on actual traffic conditions easing congestion and improving fuel efficiency. Predictive maintenance tools can analyze sensor data from bridges and roadways to identify problems before they become safety hazards. In the future, vehicle to infrastructure communication systems may use AI to coordinate between vehicles and traffic signals leading to safer intersections and smoother traffic flows. The Advanced Research Projects Agency infrastructure at the Department of Transportation was authorized by Congress in twenty twenty-one to support high-risk, high-reward next-generation transportation technologies. Digital infrastructure, which enables sensitive computing, network, and communi- communication systems, should be a major for- focus of future ARPA-I investment. Autonomously driven vehicles are one rapidly growing area of innovation, and companies like Tesla and Waymo, are making significant advances. Congress should continue evaluating these emerging technologies to support transportation systems that are both cutting edge and safe. Surface transportation research and technology are vital to the strength of our economy I'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today and I appreciate their willingness to help the subcommittee explore these crucial areas of US san- surface transportation research. That concludes my opening statement. I'd like to now recognize the ranking member of the

Well, thank you so much, Chairman Olbermann-Nolte, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today. You know, for decades Michigan has designed, engineered, and manufactured the components that made American vehicles the best in the world. I've spent my career fighting for the workers of Michigan from helping on the US auto rescue, under the administration of Barack Obama, an initiative that saved two hundred thousand Michigan jobs, and of course to the work on this committee, helping pass the Chips and Science Act to get US-made cars back on the lot after supply chain disruptions. After last summer, I introduced the No Chinese Cars Act, which would stop the flow of Chinese cars and parts into the United States, undermining American autos and threatening Michigan jobs. I will always work to bolster Michigan manufacturing, protect Michigan jobs, and support our best-in-class workforce. That effort starts right here by investing in next-generation technologies. And so this hearing comes at a very pivotal moment for the future of mobility and American competitiveness. The upcoming surface transportation reauthorization is Congress's opportunity to keep the United States and Michigan at the forefront of the global auto industry. At its core, this is a choice. Whose side are we on? Do we export American cars or jobs? The research and development investments supported by this committee will determine whether America stays in the driver's seat or lets our adversaries take the wheel. Let me start with what's working. The bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act has been a success story. In Michigan, we've seen over thirty-two million dollars in federal highway administration grants invested in smart intersection and connected vehicle research at the University of Michigan alone. Oakland County, the county that keeps the world on wheels, where seventy-six of the top a hundred global auto part suppliers do business, has leveraged these investments to strengthen our manufacturing ecosystem. And of course, we don't wanna get complacent. especially in setting our nation's surface transportation R and D agenda for years to come. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials recommends that at a minimum Congress should maintain funding at the current laws levels, adjusting for inflation. Every dollar we don't invest in American transportation technology and infrastructure is a dollar of advantage we hand to our competitors. Just a few years ago, Chinese vehicles barely registered on the global stage. Today, China is the world's largest auto pr- producer flooding, uh, markets with cheap, largely electric vehicles. Congress cannot ignore these realities or the pressure these Chinese vehicles and components flooding the market put on Michigan manufacturers and auto workers. Despite misguided trade and manufacturing policies, Michigan is still fighting. but our workers need us in their corner. This science committee has an important voice in the surface transportation bill reauthorization. And this is an important hearing for us to discuss what investments will keep America at the forefront of the next generation mobility technologies. I'm also particularly pleased to see Doctor Henry Liu, uh, Director of MCity at the University of Michigan here today. investments like Mcity represent exactly the kind of research infrastructure that keeps America competitive and I look forward to hearing more. And I'm very confident, Mister Chair, that we can find common ground on investments that keep America competitive, support American workers, and ensure that when the world buys the vehicles of tomorrow, they're designed, engineered, and built in the United States of America, and with my preference, in Michigan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.

Thank you, Ranking, thank you, Ranking Member Stephens, I now recognize the Chairman of the full committee, Representative Babin of Texas, for five minutes for his opening statement.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I g- uh thank you witnesses, uh, um, we're looking forward to your testimony. Uh, good afternoon, Chairman Olberamte, again, thank you for your, for this uh, this hearing. I wanna thank these witnesses as well, and we want to uh see what you all have to say about uh shaping our surface transportation across the United States. Transportation is the circulatory system of the American economy. Industry and commerce depend upon it, and we must do everything we can to keep that system very strong. When the flow of transportation weakens, roadblocks can prevent America from moving forward as it should. Research and development in surface transportation is especially important. From trucks on our highways that support commerce to safety innovations that protect our families, on our roadways, these systems affect Americans every single day. Surface transportation R and D also plays a vital role in safety. Research into crash avoidance systems, better road materials, and vehicle-to-vehicle communication can and does save lives. Every mile we travel can be safer than the last if we invest in smarter vehicles, and in our infrastructure. As transportation technologies evolve, we also need a workforce prepared to, excuse me, to build and maintain them, another area where American research leadership is critical. Our universities are central to these efforts. The uh this subcommittee oversees the research and technology titles within the surface transportation reauthorizations. These bills enable groundbreaking work in institutions across our country. including the Texas A and M Transportation Institute, or TTI, in my home state of Texas. Director Winfrey, I am eager to learn more about TTI's work on vehicle safety, advanced sensor technologies, and on automated uh vehicles. I'm also interested in hearing from our witnesses about the innovation in the private sector as American companies continue developing their own autonomous vehicle technologies Self-driving cars may well be a defining It is remarkable how advances in artificial intelligence are converging with transportation. Understanding these applications across both academia and industry is key to ensuring that the United States leads in surface transportation innovation. At the same time, Congress must examine the full scope of the United States research portfolio to ensure that America remains at the very forefront. We must also ensure that our transportation infrastructure and research enterprise are not vulnerable to interference from foreign adversaries, like the Chinese Communist Party. Whether through exploiting weaknesses in GPS networks, targeting connected vehicle software, or racing ahead in next generation technologies that could transform global markets, these risks are real and they demand our attention. From highways to to railways, surface transportation in the United States is at a crossroads. And the decisions that we make today will define mobility for generations to come. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about their current state of research in this field and uh it is so important and at certainly in an exciting time for innovation in surface transportation but thank you, Mister Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.

Thank you, Chairman Babin. I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Representative Lofgren of California, for five minutes for her opening statement.

Uh, thank you, Chairman Olbermilty and uh, Ranking Member Stephens for holding today's hearing. I'd also like to thank our expert panel of witnesses uh, for their testimony. You know, some topics that we cover here in the committee can feel, you know, futuristic or abstract, like quantum computing. Uh, but surface transportation affects the lives of of everyone who's here. Um, every person in the country every day travels each year, the nation's roads, highways, mass transit systems allow Americans to travel billions of miles and ship trillions of dollars in goods and services. Uh, but we also need to be clear-eyed about the challenges before us today. Our nation has crumbling infrastructure. Despite the historic investments made, uh, during the Biden administration, the American Society of Civil Engineers still gave America a C in its most recent infrastructure report. Thirty-nine percent of major roads in the US are in poor or mediocre condition, and it surely does not help that the Trump administration has unilaterally terminated billions of dollars of commitments made under the bipartisan Infrastructure Act. that appear to be entirely motivated by partisanship. The administration's ill-considered tariffs and other actions against our international partners partners are also uh contributing to inflation and supply chain disruptions that are increasing construction costs, and they also threaten our state's ability to keep up with growing transportation needs. Our colleagues on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee will debate how best to support our roads rails and bridges over the next five years, but the science committee uh has a job to look further into the future, uh to the transportation solutions and innovations of tomorrow. It's through research that we will have an opportunity to make our transportation system safer, cheaper, more efficient, and more environmentally friendly. Researchers are exploring ways to make roads self-healing, or or methods to recycle pavement. uh to make our roads more environmentally friendly. Research can help us identify and address supply t- chain uh shocks, understand how they can affect transportation, and finally as we modernize our transportation systems with automation and sustainable technologies, research is gonna be critical to understanding the impacts of these uh technologies on legacy infrastructure. One of the key federal investments in transportation research is the University Transportation Center program. This program supports a consortium of universities that tackle major, uh, transportation topics from smart infrastructure to next generation GPS and autonomous vehicles. I'm pleased to see two UTCs, uh, represented on the panel today. Unfortunately, the administration's mishandling of this long-standing and successful program shows yet another instance of manufactured chaos. Last May, Secretary Duffy chose to terminate seven grants to UTC's, including one at San Jose State University, located in my district. On the basis that the grants quote " didn't meet the new priorities of the department". Now this action immediately halted over forty specific research projects, supporting nearly one hundred faculty and students across four universities. This decision, I think, was completely unfair, to the university who, the universities who had after all competed for the awards. Awardees didn't have a say in the criteria that were set by Congress and implemented by the previous administration. Last summer, Transportation and Infrastructure Ranking member Larson and I sent the department a letter, calling for this decision to be reconsidered. Now, I was heartened by the department's ultimate decision to re-compete the terminated awards, but I worry that these arbitrary terminations will shake confidence in DOT as a reliable partner, stall future transportation research programs, and further hamper the next generation of transportation uh workforce. The most recent surface transportation law, the bipartisan infrastructure act, expires in September of this year. Uh, I'm looking forward to engaging with Doctor Babinar, Chairman of the Transportation Research Community, the administration, as well as the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, uh, for the impending reauthorization. I hope that the ideas, uh, shared with the committee can day, uh, today can help inform our important work in that effort. And with that, Mister Chairman, I yield back my remaining three seconds.

Well timed. Thank you, Ranking Member Lofgren. We'll now move to witness testimony. Let me introduce Our fir- first witness, Miss Diana Fertsgottroth. In President S- Trump's first term, Miss Fertsgottroth served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Research in Technology at the US Department of Transportation,

OK.

where she directed the one point two billion dollars of research portfolio of the department and led the Volpe National Transportation System Center, and the Transportation Safety Institute. Miss Fertsgottroth, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.

Uh, thank you very much. Uh, uh, thank you very much, uh, Chairman Bobbin, Chairman Obernolte, Ranking Member Lofgren, Ranking Member Stephens. Thanks for allowing me to testify today. American progress has always been the product of American ingenuity. Ever since Henry Ford and the Wright brothers made breakthroughs in transportation technology, and these moved the nation, made us wealthier, enhanced, convenience, and improved our competitive advantages. Better transportation gives people a better choice of jobs. We had great jobs numbers today. A hundred and seventy-two thousand private sector jobs created, a four point three percent unemployment rate. These would not have been possible without our transportation system. Well, America requires transportation to lead technology race in, uh, transport, and transportation research is particularly important. to safeguard America's transportation system. Safety is a public good and it's the responsibility of the federal government. Let's take four areas, automation, GPS backup, American-made batteries, and public-private partnerships. First, because approximately forty thousand people are killed on the roads every year, and millions are injured, the government has an interest in reducing accidents on those roads. in the air and on railroads. Automation has been showed to lower these accident rates. I wanna mention the OSTR program, ARPA-I, which is particularly valuable. DARPA has spent much time seeding the fee field in the many decades, preceding the current boom in AI. And ARPA-I can address road safety and automation of transportation corridors. I just wanna mention a few projects that ARPA-I has been working on. new bridge construction technology that will speed the construction of bridges. Uh, the DOT intersection safety challenge, which develops technology at intersections, uh, that will keep children safe. Running an ideas innovation project that has eng- engaged hundreds of innovators across the country, to come up with technology to improve transportation infrastructure. Second, foreign actors are increasingly attempting to disrupt the systems that Americans use on the roads in the air and on the seas. They want to do this by hacking and spoofing our global positioning system. The federal government provides GPS free of charge, and it has an interest in protecting this GPS, and to install back-up systems in government vehicles to make sure that uh they are available if GPS uh goes out. Turn AI, uh, and I'm serve on the advisory board of Turn AI, has developed a very inexpensive back-up system for GPS that can operate independently of spectrum or visual signals. It works by feeding a sophisticated map in the info system, and this sophisticated map works with the vehicle sensors. It's been tested by DOT, the army, uh, FedEx is interested, cuz it doesn't want its. Trucks to be stranded. Amazon is interested cuz it wants to reduce error rates. It's very important that this type of technology, inexpensive, uh readily available, be extended to government vehicles also. Uh the Ohio State Karman Center, uh which is funded by DOT, has demonstrated that cellular communications infrastructure can be harnessed to deliver the most accurate PNT performance t- across a wide range of platforms and environments. And recently in the latest bill, Congress appropriated five million for the Department of Transportation to deploy back-up positioning, navigation and timing services. This is in the FY twenty twenty-six Transportation, Housing and Urban Development Appropriations bill, uh, that was passed by the Senate. Third, spying from, Chinese spying from electronic components and batteries is, uh, very damaging to the United States, and it's very important that we have US-made batteries in order to uh address this and to make sure that our system is not vulnerable. Just today it was announced that DOT is requiring a hundred percent made in the United States electric battery charges. And electric batteries are available uh made in the United States, made from lithium in North Carolina, processed in the United States uh at the same cost as Chinese batteries. And Chinese battery uh, charges would be very damaging because they would be spying on people who charge up their vehicles. It's very important that we have, uh, uh, that we reduce spying by Chinese, uh, on American, uh, motorists. Fourth, uh, public-private partnerships are vital to replace and maintain infrastructure. And we heard about the crumbling infrastructure. We need to make sure that the private sector has an opportunity to do this. One of the ways is tolling. And the Federal Communications Commission shouldn't be allowed to give away part of the nine hundred m- a megahertz band of spectrum, which will mean that these toll systems will no longer work, and we won't be able to have private-public partnerships in order to, uh, to build the roads that we need to, and maintain the ones that we have. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Miss Fritz-Gothroth. We'll move to our next witness now, the Honorable Gregg Winfrey, the Agency Director of the Texas A and M Transportation Institute. In this role he leads one of the largest and most comprehensive higher education affiliated transportation research institutes in the United States. He represents TTI within the Texas A and M university system, reporting to the Vice Chancellor for Engineering and serves as the institute's liaison to the Texas legislature. He also serves as an adjunct professor at the Texas A and M School of Law. Before joining TTI, Miss Winfrey, Mister Winfrey spent nearly seven years at the US Department of Transportation, most recently as Assistant Secretary of Transportation overseeing the department's research and technology programs. Mister Winfrey, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.

Thank you so much, Chairman Obernolte. Greeting, Ranking Member Stephens, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Lofgren. And members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for inviting me to testify about the importance of federal surface transportation research programs. Again, my name is Greg Winfrey, and I am the Agency Director of the Texas A and M Transportation Institute, or TTI. Prior to joining TTI in twenty sixteen, as you've heard, I served as the Assistant Secretary for Research in Technology at USDOT. Established in nineteen fifty and a member of the Texas A and M University system, TTI is a state agency and the largest and most comprehensive university affiliated transportation research center in the United States. Throughout our seventy-five year history, TTI has addressed complex transportation challenges and has conducted work in all fifty states and more than fifty-four countries. As this committee well knows, technology is changing at an incredible rate. Innovations that would once take decades are now happening daily. Much of this innovation is coming out of research institutions like TTI. And continued investment in transportation research is vital to securing US dominance in transportation and infrastructure. We cannot allow ourselves to fall behind our adversaries, which I fear may already be happening at a quickening pace. TTI values its long-standing collaborative relationship with U S D O T. Our partnership is a notable example of the force multiplier role that research institutions can serve for U S D O T and its state and local D O T partners. Research institutions are major participants in U S D O T's sponsored research. including the cooperative research programs managed by the Transportation Research Board. The research community also supports many other USDOT activities, including the ITS joint program office, the SmartGrant program, and ARPA-I. The UTC program is of particular importance. The UTC's move ideas from research to reality. Assisting USDOT in addressing transportation's biggest challenges, and delivering measurable impacts for communities, agencies, and industry. The UTCs have been at their most successful when centers have the freedom to take the priorities set forth by Congress and U S D O T and identify the research areas that will drive innovation. UTC should be used as implementation partners and force multipliers, extending U S D O T's capacity to work directly with states on deployment. Now, we appreciate the support Congress has given to the UTC program. As you work on the next surface transportation bill, reauthorization of the UTC program will ensure that USDOT continues to be able to harness the power and creativity of university research to address our nation's most pressing transportation challenges. Specifically, Congress should authorize the UTC program at not less than one hundred million dollars per year. In addition to the UTC program, TTI has identified the following critical research areas that are deserving of federal attention and investment. Transportation intelligence. A resilient transportation system requires reliable nationwide intelligence, so U. S. DOT and state agencies can plan and respond effectively. But today our data is fragmented, with no unified access across state lines. That's why TTI is working in partnership with Senator Cornyn and the University of Maryland to propose a national infrastructure intelligence tool through the Congestion Mitigation Act. Emerging technology. The transportation sector is rapidly transforming and is evolving from siloed individual nodes to digital infrastructure connecting modes and technology. Research institutions are key partners in accelerating the deployment of innovative digital technologies shared data, and coordinated operations to transform and modernize major U. S. transportation corridors. Dedicated funding in the next surface transportation reauthorization bill for technology deployment, will serve to enhance these efforts. The department's recently released digital infrastructure RFI is also a welcome step. Transportation safety. The United States has yet to significantly reduce transportation-related fatalities in recent years, despite implementing several new technologies and approaches. Given the continuing alarming trends in fatalities and injuries, it is clear there is a need for a more universal, beneficial, and proactive approach to safety planning, deployment, and assessment at the state, regional, and national levels. On behalf of the seven hundred dedicated professionals at TTI, thank you for your support for federal surface transportation research programs. I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

Thank you, Mr. Winfrey. Our final witness is Doctor Henry Liu, the Bruce Greenshield's Collegiate Professor of Engineering at the University of Michigan where he serves as Director of the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, MCITI, and the USDOT-funded Center for the Connected and Automated Transportation. His research bridges tra- traffic systems, vehicle automation, and artificial intelligence with a focus on real-world deployment. He currently serves as Managing Editor of the Journal of Intelligent Transportation Systems. Doctor Liu, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.

Good afternoon. I'm Chairman Albanati, um, Ranking Member Stephens and members of the subcommittee. My name is Henry Liu. I'm a professor at the University of Michigan, and I serve as the Director of University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute which include M-City and the US DOT Foundation Center for Connected Automated Transportation. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss how the US can accelerate progress in surface transportation research. My remarks focus on two priority areas. The first priority area is to establish a re- rigorous national framework for autonomous vehicle safety testing and evaluation. It's needed because autonomous driving system are moving from limited pilot towards broader deployment and society need a credible answer to a basic question. How do we know a system is safe enough to scale? Without a rigorous unbiased evaluation framework, we face two unacceptable outcomes, either premature deployment based on incomplete evidence that undermines public trust or delayed adoption of a potentially lifesaving technology, because regulators, insurers, can and communities like a principled um uh basis for confidence. But autonomous vehicle safety testing is difficult not only because crashes are rare and operational field is effectively open-ended, but also because modern AVs are AI driven and partially black box. Performance can vary sharply with small changes in context. A learning-based component can fail in non-intuitive ways, often described as hallucinations. Because of these fundamentals, a national A V evaluation framework cannot be created by policy alone. It requires sustained research to make safety evidence rigorous and scalable, and to enable independent assessment. At MCITI, through a NSF-funded MCITI two point O effort, we have developed a behavior safety assessment program with two complementary components basic behavior competency testing use scenario libraries to establish behavioral flaw analog to human licensing. The driving intelligence test provides statistical um evaluation in naturalistic and adversarial environment to uncover unknown unsafe behaviors and estimate accident rate with confidence bond it is important to note this is still a developing framework but it offers a practical practical blueprint uh print for third party performance based assessment. The second priority is to advance AI-based um digital road infrastructure, so agencies can improve safety and mobility with do more with less capabilities. The opportunity is to leverage AI to turn vast amount the vast amount of data agencies own into actionable, operational intelligence. Two examples illustrate what this look like in practice. The first example is to use anonymized vehicle trajectory data to optimize traffic signal timing plans without any new sensors. At arm tree we demonstrate this um with significant reduction in delays and stops, and we are scaling the system with pilot in Oakland County, Michigan, with a US DOT funded Smart Phase One grant. The second example is to leverage AI to proactively um sip monitor with existing cameras. Because crashes are rare, So it take a long time to collect crushed data for safety management. And I'm sure we leverage AI and existing cameras to compute conflict indicators, allowing agency to detect crushed risk and evaluate counting measures months or years before crushed statistics would show a change. The system is being deployed at more than fifty intersections in the city of Ann Arbor in Michigan. To accelerate progress in these two priority areas, I have the following recommended actions for Congress to consider. First, to establish a dedicated federal program to advance the science of autonomous vehicle evaluation. Second, to build shared research accessible data and compute infrastructure including privacy, preserving repository, and dedicated compute resources. Third, to provide stable long-term support for testbed and living labs. And last but not least, to reauthorize and modernize the university transportation centers program as the backbone of the research to workforce to deployment pipeline. With these steps, the United States can lead in transportation safety, infrastructure modernization, and the responsible deployment of AI-enabled mobility, grounded in rigorous evidence and measurable public benefit. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Doctor Liu. We will now move to questions from members of the subcommittee. I will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes for questions. Uh Miss Fertsgothroth, I would like to start with you, uh one of the common frustrations that I hear, not only from members of Congress but uh from members of the research community, is that quite often we will fund really promising technology pilot programs that are successful but then uh, get stuck and never achieve nationwide deployment. So I'm curious, uh, i- about your tenure at the DOT and your experience with, uh, overcoming these structural barriers to get research from the lab out into the real world. And specifically I'm interested in the specific steps that we can take in Congress, uh, during this reauthorization to strengthen that process, because obviously a program that, uh, never advances beyond the pilot program, uh, i- is not one that most of our constituents are going to realize the benefits from.

Uh, so, uh, part of the problem, uh, that I saw when I was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Research in Technology, uh, was, uh, a big, uh, fight over connected vehicles. Uh, the industry had developed, um, dedicated short-range communications. Uh, and then some of the spectrum was taken away by another, uh, part of the government and re-allocated so that that technology couldn't be used. Uh, and then that other agency, the Federal Communications Commission, ended up requiring a second technology, uh, called, uh, cellular V to X. So it was a question of, uh, two different departments working in contradictory directions. And we can see this happening again with uh the Federal Communications Commission uh um uh inquiry uh consideration of repurposing the nine hundred megahertz band, giving it to a particular company uh uh called Nextnav uh to ostensibly to use it for GPS back-up. But this company already provides GPS back-up, you can already see on the web site. And that would disrupt the toll collectors. And again, that's a very important transportation resource, because that's used for public-private partnerships. If you wanna build a new, for example, the new Indiana toll road or, uh, other kinds of, uh, new bridges, tolls are very important. So, uh, those are the kinds of arguments that kind of need to be straightened out within uh the executive branch. In terms of certain technologies not working out, then it's possible that, just like there's a dry hole in an oil, uh, uh, company or a pharmaceutical company invests in some drug that then doesn't work, it's very important to have the investments. You can't be assured that a hundred percent of them work, then you're just gonna take very low risk activities. And you want to look at basically a high risk activities.

Right, yeah, of course, and uh no one pretends that those are bad investments because as you point out, we need to - to - to sort for the - uh the few things that are gonna be really super successful we've gotta make a wide variety of uh - of different investments, but certainly frustrated when the conditions change, uh, as you've outlined. Uh, Mister F- Winfrey, a similar question for you, I was interested in your written testimony that you noted federal research dollars go furthest when the goal is to deploy technology on, we- Real Roads, not just produce a study, which I think is the goal of most of these investment dollars.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you also emphasized that sometimes our biggest challenge is not actually generating good ideas, but getting those ideas tested, standardized, and adopted by state departments of So can you share with us uh an example where that transition worked well and maybe one that it fell short, and identify the factors that made the difference?

Absolutely, and it's a a mix of the question you asked previously and an answer to the question you just posed, so thank you for that, uh, Mister Chairman. I would call it stair steps to success. Um, pilot programs are terrific. Uh, when I was Assistant Secretary, we were pleased and thrilled to be able to grant to the University of Michigan Transportation Institute the connected vehicle safety pilot. And that proved our technologies that Ms. first got Roth is talking about with respect to vehicles having the ability to communicate in real time and, uh, with either other vehicles or with infrastructure. The technology was proven, but because of the time tables, uh, technology development in the transportation space is on a much longer time frame than what you find from Silicon Valley. And you can put a new cell phone out and have it crash and no one dies. You can't put a tan- transportation technology out and have, and, and, and, and be able to tolerate those kinds of endpoints. So it needs to be absolutely safe before it's introduced into the traveling public. So that's certainly one, uh, frame of reference for understanding to better, uh, execute, uh, these technologies to get them into the, uh, communities and before the American driving and traveling public. But also it's a funding issue. Funding, uh, at the federal level, uh, dictates federal leadership. There is a need for guidance from USDOT with respect to how the states operate, because the funds that come from the federal government trickle down to the states for execution. And without an adequate game plan and directive, from the feds, you wind up with what we have now, with fifty state cacophony with folks that don't know what to do. So, yes, pilot programs are good. Uh, get those in place, and then have a strategy for nationwide deployment. I think a good instance of where that is showing and bearing some fruit now is with the VITA-X deployment program through USDOT that, uh, TTI is working on in Houston. But Arizona and Utah are both uh partnered in that regard. This is a deployment program. This isn't a pilot. This is an actual deployment that will have uh improve out the technology for nationwide deployment. So it can be done.

Right. Well, thank you very much for the insight. So my time has expired. Uh, I'll now now recognize ranking member Stephens for her five minutes for her her questions.

OK, thank you. Um, the University Transportation Center's program is a competitive grant program sports mid to long-term surface transportation research, as our ranking member mentioned. And of course we've been seeing um grants get canceled through UTC awards and um schedule expirations uh just coming into effect. And so, Mister Winfrey and Doctor Lowe, um can you

Mm-hmm.

describe the impacts of these cancellations on the broader community? Do actions like these undermine confidence in the stability and

Thank you, Member Stephens. Like you just mentioned that um these grant are um uh competitively bidded um and so uh it's certainly a surprise for us that uh we see that some of the programs has been cancelled and terminated and then um um we are in the process of re-bidding. um in some some of these are repeating these programs and so so i do think that uh this will create um some uh uncertainty in transportation research and uh um and and um this will impact not only the research project but also this faculty and students also uh involve in these projects and so this is certainly uh uh a a shock to the transportation enterprise in the us

and Mister Winfrey, if these program cancellations were to happen or to occur at your respective institution, what would be the immediate impacts?

Uh, to - to echo, uh, what Doctor Liu said, certainly, uh, faculty and students, but let's not forget, these are consortia and - and the UTC program is something I hold dear. I was the - the bureaucrat that had to take it to a fully competitive program that we have now. So, I'm very beholden to the UTC program, but what I'm saying is, um, uh, it's a - it's a consortium, so these - these programs have one to sometimes ten or eleven universities involved. So it's not just the name and lead school that suffers. There are downstream effects, and the intent was to share, uh, these resource dollars across a wider area. So it's regional, uh, or even greater in its impact, so it is - it is - it can be devastating.

Well,

Yeah.

you you have a lot to be proud of with that program, and also thank you for your incredible testimony written and delivered. And, you know, one of the biggest challenges confronting Congress in the upcoming surface transportation reauthorization is how, uh, best to balance safety and innovation with the deployment of autonomous vehicles. Um, while we are not as focused on the regulatory challenges on this committee, there are still critical research and testing that needs to be done to improve um the safety and to understand the impact of such a transition. And Doctor Liu, in twenty twenty four your team at M City released the M City Digital Twin, which I'm a fan of the Digital Twin, um to support the development and testing of autonomous and connected vehicle software. Unlike other platforms, this Digital Twin is an open source project. So can you just describe for us here the M City Digital Twin

sure um sure that's a great question um so mct digital twin is um was built as part of the nsf supported national um uh my mct two point O project um and uh in that project you know we have a mct physical infrastructure and and then um uh with that digital twin we coupled the physical infrastructure with the digital infrastructure and now we can open up M-city for uh remote access to this mixed reality test uh um uh testbed. And this is particularly important. We are at Michigan, we are fortunate enough, we have a testbed. And one of the things I um specify in my testimony is that uh the transportation research community like uh uh likes uh a testbed to test out their algorithms, and and so that they can um um they can um uh specify the parameters and and before they deploy it uh in the real world. Um and so this digital twin of this uh uh MCD, it was particularly important that uh it not only um enables researchers to test out their algorithm before they even test in the MCD uh physical infrastructure but also they because it's open source they can incorporate this into their algorithms and and uh and and do some specification with with it and it's open sourced so it's not only to academic community but it's also to the industry as well and so you have seen multiple um a number of users are use using these digital trains and we also further develop these digital trains not only spec not only constrained at m city but now we are developing a city school digital train for the city of annapur we also working with uh san francisco county transportation authority to build a much larger scale digital twin so that we can test out autonomous vehicles in terms of uh particularly to explore their unknown unsafe behaviors and also to estimate the accident rates they will be occurring um when they de- being deployed in large scale.

Well, keep up the great work. And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.

The gentleman yields back. I now recognize my colleague from California, Mister Fong, for five minutes for his questions.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chairman. Um, I thank you for uh, for the testimony. Um, I wanted to focus uh, on uh, my questions uh, uh to you, Mrs. Diana, uh, for Scott Roth. Um, I certainly am an am am bullish when it comes to autonomous technology, especially when it comes to transportation. Um, I've introduced America Drives Act to try to create a national framework, uh, to allow the deployment, uh, safely, um, uh, of this technology. I was wanting to get from your expertise and your experience, um, you know, what should we be doing now to advance uh autonomous technology, especially when it comes to to cars and trucks?

Uh, thanks for that excellent question. Um, autonomous driving can go so f- very, very far to reduce accidents. I was really happy to have my first ride in a Waymo, uh, taxi when I was in Phoenix a few months ago. It was really a transformative experience. It went slower than I would have gone, uh, very safe. And I know that there are headlines whenever there's an accident with an autonomous vehicle but there are far fewer than there are on the regular vehicles, uh, on the road, uh, driver, uh, driver, uh, vehicles with drivers in them. So, I think it's very important that, uh, the federal government set overall performance standards but then let different states and cities roll out these vehicles as they see fit. And when I was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Research in Technology, I would travel, uh, the country and, uh, people in Greenville would say, " Why aren't you allowing me to use my autonomous shuttle?" People in Tampa would say, " Why aren't you allowing me to use my autonomous shuttles?" So I think it's very important to get this technology out, point one. Point two, if you have autonomous trucking, if you have autonomous trucks, you need a whole corridor across the United States to do so. So I think it's very important to have corridors where autonomous trucks can go, so that they don't find they get to, for example, Texas, then they can't use the autonomous technology, then they can use it after they go through Texas. So, something like uh I-ten, having autonomous, an autonomous corridor there, or a couple of other corridors would be very helpful also.

Uh, uh, uh, I I couldn't agree with you more. Uh, I do invite you to maybe, uh, you know, take a ride on Aurora's or, or um, or Kodiak's uh autonomous trucks. I, yeah, had the same experience um, going uh in Texas, uh, and of course Interstate uh commerce you know we we can't have um you know fifty different rules uh uh across the country especially when we're trying to get um products uh you know from point a to point b especially when it comes to the supply chain. Um from in terms of the legislative barriers I mean uh are there specific legislative barriers that that you've seen in your research that need to be addressed to help propel the technology forward? You kind of outlined you know kind of putting a framework but Uh, do you have any specific uh, legislative ideas that you think need to be um, you know, in the short term need to be addressed, um, and then in the in the long term, you know, as well?

Uh, I don't have them right now, but I would be happy to get back to you with a list of those proposed legislative changes. And I just wanna add that in terms of our workforce, uh, in uh, we see that uh, some um, that uh, that our workforce is not necessarily expanding as fast As it used to be, we have shortages of truck drivers, uh, that, uh, I think one of the barriers to, uh, autonomous technology, uh, not just in the road area but also in ports has been the feeling that, uh, workers will be disenfranchised. But with autonomous technology, productivity can, uh, be increased, uh, people can be paid more, and, uh, all technology has been leading to an expansion of employment rather than a contraction.

Absolutely. Uh, I w- I wanna offer, uh, the - the other two, uh, panelists to - to - to, uh, chime in as well, um, in - in terms of what - what can we do to advance, uh, autonomous technology? Are there any specific legislative barriers that you've seen in your research? Uh, we'll certainly welcome your expertise to both of you.

Thank you so much, Mr. Fong, and - and I'll be brief. Uh, again, it's a lack of federal leadership with respect to, uh, harmonizing, uh, the fifty states. We've got a fifty state cacophony right now with different rules. However, I am proud to say that the great state of Texas is the leader with respect to self-driving technologies with Aurora, Gattac, and others on our roadways. But Ms. Frisch-Gottroth is exactly right. If we're gonna get commerce from California to Florida on I-ten or I-forty, or any of the other interstates, we need to be able to have a seamless connectivity between the states. Thank you.

So one of the things I want to add is um um there's various program in the federal uh uh some of the federal project, but uh safety testing and evaluation of autonomous vehicles is scattered around. There's no central place that uh uh a federal program support safety testing and evaluation I want to mention that autonomous vehicle safety testing and evaluation, it is a difficult problem. It's not easy. There's no consensus how do we test these vehicles in terms of their safety performance. And so um so then Um, now when something happened, uh, with, uh, you know, these, uh, autonomous vehicle developers and, um, um, this this blame goes to the company. And so I think there's there's a need for the federal to establish, um, a federal, uh, program to - to really explore the science behind autonomous vehicle safety testing. And then to provide some sort of framework, how do we evaluate, and also to investigate how safe is it safe enough. Right, so uh in in terms of this technology.

Well, my time has run out, but I appreciate I appreciate the leadership of Texas. I that's where I uh rode uh the and and saw these technologies at first uh in in real time uh firsthand so uh thank you, Mister Chairman, I'll yield back.

Gentleman yields back. We'll go next to the representative from Delaware, Miss McBride, you're recognized for five minutes.

Thank you so much, Mister Chairman. Thank you to you, Mister Chairman, and ranking member Stephens for hosting this hearing today, and good afternoon to our witnesses. for taking the time to come before us today to share your expertise and your knowledge. This committee plays a unique role in moving forward legislation that advances research and development efforts for surface transportation. As we heard earlier, university transportation centers are authorized and funded to research and develop recommendations that make our roads and infrastructure better, and safer for Americans. I am proud that the University of Delaware and the greatest in the history of the union, Delaware, plays an important role, I heard some laughter there, uh, plays an important role in this effort as one of only seven universities that form the Smarter Center. After the tragic collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge in twenty twenty four, the Smarter Center mobilized quickly to study the impact of the collapse, to develop recommendations to help mitigate the impact, and to carry out long-term research to learn about the lasting consequences of the tragedy. As a member of the Smarter Center, the University of Delaware conducts research that is community-based, folding in workforce development, multimodal transit options, urban areas, food access, emerging technologies, and more, while involving industry partners, government agencies, and more. This research is not only timely, but crucial to helping us understand how we can make wise investments to make our infrastructure work better for us tomorrow. Congress and the administration should continue to support this important work, rather than pulling the rug out from under our researchers and universities that are working to advance our understanding and inform our decision making. I I I'd like to start with uh, Doctor Liu, in your experience as a director of a university transportation center, could you speak more to how you would characterize the impact that sustained federal funding has on transportation research? through UTCs and how does this work help state and local governments make smarter and more cost-effective decisions?

Yes, um I uh I want to agree with my uh colleague uh, Greg Winfrey that um these transportation, u- university transportation centers, they are consortium. So um at the Center for Connected Automated Transportation, our Region five UTC, we have nine universities within the consortium. Um and so this not only just the lead university but also uh uh uh uh a number of consortium members the second thing I want to emphasize is these UTCs not only conduct research uh and make impact uh in terms to our um um uh policy and practice, but also this is a important consortium um to uh educate our next generation workforce. And so um so at UTC I want to emphasize these are research workforce and impact is not only just the research, so it's it carries the the the um responsibility to educate our next generation workforce.

Great. Thank you, thank you very much. And Assistant Secretary Secretary Winfrey, um we we just heard a little bit about uh Waymo's. I haven't had the chance to to ride in one yet. But moving back and sort of talking more broadly uh uh about emerging technologies, could you speak about the role UTC's have played in studying emerging technologies? uh in transportation to help improve safety and resilience of our transportation systems and what role do UTC's play in facilitating the mass deployment of these technologies in a timely and safe manner?

That's a great question. Thank you so much. Um, a good way to think about it is something that we're doing at Texas A and M and it's called the uh Transportation Technology uh Innovation Accelerator. If you look at state DOTs around the country, they're inundated with brilliant ideas that, hey, only for a million dollars we can solve all your problems. State DOTs don't have the depth of bench to do the research and really invest the time in figuring out what's wheat and what's chaff, what's real and what's Memorex. That's where university transportation centers can play a huge role, by bringing those technologies into a, into a space that's got controlled access, proving grounds, that's got the depth of bench as a force multiplier for the state DOT personnel, to test out those technologies and then give them the consumer report's seal of approval as to whether or not it will work in their system or to be objective, and tell them whether or not it's not gonna work and it's not worth the investment. So that is a a tremendous role that universities can play starting tomorrow with respect to working with state DOTs in partnership to ensure that the best technologies get into the transportation system to start saving lives now.

Thank you. Yeah, that scalability of expertise is a real benefit for our state and local governments in particular. Thank you very much. I yield back.

The gentleman yields back. Uh, we'll hear next from the gentlewoman from Maryland, Miss Maclean Delaney, you're recognized for five minutes for your questions.

Thank you to our chair and to our ranking member, and thanks to our witnesses here today. I've been watching this, uh, uh, uh, and very, very interested in in in hearing your testimony. So I represent Maryland's sixth congressional district, which stretches from the suburbs of Washington, D. C. to the West Virginia and Pennsylvania borders. I often call it the microcosm of America because it's diversity in geography, from rural to suburban to urban. But given our proximity to the capital, um, many of my constituents, uh, commute far distances to D. C. or across our wide, diverse uh geographic district. Surface transportation is about connectivity, from bridges to highways and beyond. And for many that means public transit to get to work, take kids to school, or reach the grocery store. So in Montgomery County, which is very close to DC, we've seen what's possible when we put affordability first. Uh, our county pioneered a fare-free ride-on bus system, and it's made a real difference in higher ridership, lower transportation costs for families, and better access. And sadly that stands in stark contrast to the uncertainty coming from this administration and the Department of Transportation, on un-proposed attacks on our free fare transit programs. But transit isn't just about accessibility, it's about affordability, and not having to pay hundreds of dollars a month for car insurance or transportation instead of affordable daycare or um other costs. But research, um, in this innovation and greater access is what I'm really, um, really key to me, and that brings me today to focus on strengthening our surface transportation research. We have a real opportunity here, and I'm looking forward to hearing about a couple of things with innovation, AI, new tech, because throughout my career in nonprofit, for-profit, and government, I focused on the collection of data, and how it's used, and who has access to it. Particularly when it comes to agencies and government data, and how it's shared or monitored or safeguarded from third parties. So, Mister Winfrey, I heard that the propriet the proprietary vendor formats make it harder to co- share data and comply with uh federal reporting. Can you talk about how federal investment in the transit integrated data exchange specification and the transit operational data standards reduce improve interoperability across systems, and lower costs for agencies and competitors.

Thank you so much uh for your question, Miss Delaney. Uh that is extraordinarily complicated and complex, and I'm a lawyer. So, yeah.

So am I.

And I was a venable lawyer. Um I'll be happy to get uh any information you need from our experts, but I will tell you from a thirty thousand foot view, the data challenges are tremendous. As I mentioned to uh Representative Fong, uh in the state of Texas, we've got automated vehicles on our roadways right now,

Yep.

but it's proprietary information and the innovators that are operating on the roadways have no obligation to share data with us, with TxDOT, with our state troopers, or with our Department of Motor Vehicles. So that's a black box and we don't know what's going on inside.

You think that's a problem?

That's a huge, well it's it's a it's an issue and an opportunity that we're missing.

Yep.

Um, safety of operation is - is where they - they need to be inch-perfect with respect to ensuring that these technologies become implementable on a wide scale. And that trickles down to the, uh, transit level. We are huge supporters of public transit at the Texas A and M Transportation Institute. Uh, the funding models are upside-down. Uh, we believe because it's all about ensuring uh that Americans can get from point A to point B. We need to have uh availability of choice, we're not obviously averse to that, but ensuring that those uh with the least amount of means have the ability to get to those centers whether it's food deserts uh that they can relieve themselves from, or employment centers, we need to be facilitating that.

Thank you, and I'll follow up with you on that. Uh, Doctor Liu, your team res- released the M-City Digital Twin as an open source

Thank you for that question. I think uh the open source digital twin is particularly important, and then everybody understand the digital twin itself is very it take a long time to build um but uh it's it's critical to evaluate different type of technologies and before they they can be uh deployed on our railroad uh on the roadways. And so um uh with the open source digital twin then they this will open up um the opportunity for not only for academic researchers but also for private private companies to really utilize this um uh this resource to um um evaluate their algorithms And one of the other thing I want to mention, um, MCD has a physical infrastructure as well, right? So it's not only just the digital twin, uh, it also has the phy- physical infrastructure. So I can hope the researchers will look at also how the fidelity of the digital twin, and also the, um, the re- the result from this this evaluation. So having this such testbed not only include the physical infrastructure, but also the digital infrastructure is particularly important. for um for the research and technology development.

Excellent. Um, Doctor Liu, I'll fill follow up s- with some questions for the record, but I thank you and I yield back.

Thank you.

The gentlewoman yields back. We'll hear next from the gentleman from Illinois, Mister Foster, you're recognized for five minutes.

Uh, thank you Mister Chair and our witnesses. Uh, just a quick question on the last point, are these being integrated into the um, uh what what is the big project, the Genesis uh project where there's an attempt in in led by the Department of Energy

No, this is this is not right now. Uh, this project in particular, um, uh, related with MCD digital twin was supported by National Science Foundation, the MCD two point O project.

OK, which is also in at least intended to be incorporated. It it strikes me this is a generally useful data set for a number of purposes, and then it should

I certainly agree.

Yeah. Um, OK. Uh, one thing I've been, well, everyone's been worried about for a while is cyber security in all of these. Uh, you know, there was, I guess, probably ten years ago where Tesla, uh, one of the Chinese, I think it was, was it Tencent or Alibaba, some researchers there hacked a Tes- hacked a Tesla. And then found out they could do anything you wanted, including potentially kill the occupant or other fun stuff. And so, so Tesla rapidly, um, uh, made it so it could not be jailbroken. You know, it's sort of the difference between a Windows machine and and an IOS machine. And these uh, and and the problem that we have is that we have uh, we have this wonderful agency NIST that defines all the standards for supply chain security and and cyber security and everything um, else but they don't call balls and strikes on specific projects. And it struck me for a while that that's an agency we need. We need to have someone who actually is a regulatory agency, says, okay, we look at the NIST standards, your product does not qualify and you can't go on the road, or whatever it is. Um, we're gonna need, it's wider than just transportation. You know, this is an issue for like iPhone. If we start using our iPhones for high valued financial transactions, and then all of a sudden you find out the key storage is not secure in your iPhone, then that can discredit, you know, the whole operation and and cost people billions of dollars. So, you know, what are the, what's the best thinking on how we get the s- the cyber security that we will need, and the supply chain security and the chips and everything that goes with that, so that we don't have the science fiction disaster of, you know, all the robots turning against us or them being used for assassination, all the stuff that's been written about for decades. So what what's the status of trying to, um, and anyone take a swing at that?

Well, I think at the very least we need to make sure that, uh, we have batteries that are made in the USA, that we don't have uh Chinese EVs uh or Chinese vehicles that can be hacked. Because just as if you buy a GM car and uh you subscribe to OnStar and it says, if this car is stolen let us know, we can disable it or stop it. Uh China uh owns

Yeah they have a kill switch, yeah I mean there are there are all sorts of bad things you can do if you can

Yeah exactly, so we need to make sure that tho- those uh those are kept out and that the Chinese batteries don't have the spying components,

Right.

I would say that's a good number.

Okay but who, what agency is the one that says, okay this model is alright, cuz we trust country X and we and this one is not ok, because we don't trust country Y or or if they were less sloppy. You know, and it could be an American company that's just being sloppy. And and so, you know, I it struck me that we actually need an enforcement uh army, not just NIST to define best practices. Uh, is is there been any serious discussion of standing up such an agency to You know, the military has to face this for all kinds of of secure systems and sort of the best they have is Indian National Labs, sort of the unofficial expert, uh, being used to, for military systems, but, you know, there's a lot more civilian than military electronics out there.

Uh, unfortunately, I don't have a perfect answer, it's scattered and diffuse. Uh, I recall, um, the Department of Commerce, uh, entertaining conversations about this. You mentioned the iPhone, it's largely not widely known that your phone, iPhone, can contact the Russian GPS system. Right? So it's cascading effects, i- and it's difficult to pinpoint it to any one particular technology or any one particular uh arena so there's gonna need to be a whole of government approach uh that sits down and analyzes and then deputizes the proper or creates the proper stand-up organization to address this. But I recall Department of Commerce tackling this or trying to tackle this about a dozen years ago.

Yeah, and uh this is clearly something where the state's do not have the capacity to do this. It's not even clear that we as a nation have the capacity to look at every piece of consumer electronics that could potentially harm someone. And then, you know, and then somehow have some pretty highly paid, very expert people look at the software, the firmware, the supply chain history of the silicon and everything that will, because, you know, the bad guys are already thinking of exploiting this.

Congressman, I'm not a policy expert, but I can comment on some of the technology dev related with cyber security i think cyber security in many cases is being considered as a add-on afterwards afterthoughts but uh um research is really needed to uh really incorporate security by design and so that it's part of this um system design that you incorporate security consideration into the specifications so that these are automatically um um uh hosted

yeah

and it's and it has to have the power of congress

and you know yeah

Because if one agency makes a regulation, say that we're not gonna have Chinese um EVs, then uh in another administration that can be rolled back. But if Congress codifies and makes into a law, all of you decide that this is important, you pass a law, then it can't just ping pong backwards and forwards between administrations.

Yeah, from a foreign point of view. I'm I'm worried more about it costs a lot to do a good job of cyber security, and and that's a, anyway, well, thank you, and yield back.

The gentleman yields back. That concludes questions from the subcommittee. I'd like to thank the witnesses for all of your valuable testimony, and all of our members for their pertinent questions. The record will remain open for ten days for additional comments and written questions from members. This hearing is now adjourned.