Proposed FY 2027 Budget Estimates and Justification for CBO, GPO, and GAO

with sufficient resources to fulfill our constitutional duties to oversee the federal government pass meaningful legislation and provide constituent services I also believe that the investments we make must be necessary, strategic, and for the benefit of this nation. The Congressional Budget Office's mission is to provide non-partisan budget and economic data to Congress, independent of the executive branch. The agency's request for fiscal year twenty twenty-seven is seventy-six point three million dollars, an increase of one point five million dollars above the enacted level. This request would restore staff capacity to approximately two hundred seventy-four employees and it would allow CBO to hire eleven additional staff members, including analysts focused on defense and mean-tested programs, dynamic scoring, and transparency and responsiveness efforts. It also includes funding to continue to strengthen the agency's cyber security posture, and improve IT. The government publishing offices publish publishes trusted information for Congress and the federal government to keep the American people informed I would like to highlight how long CPO has been dedicated to this mission CPO recently celebrated its one hundred sixty-fifth birthday the agency opened its doors for business on March fourth eighteen sixty one. the same day that President Lincoln was inaugurated. The fiscal year twenty twenty-seven's CPO has requested one hundred thirty-two million dollars which is equal to the enacted level. The request supports the continued transition to digital products and technologies which will achieve savings while also increasing accessibility for the American public. GAO supports Congress in its oversight of the federal government. identifying waste and fraud in government programs and recommending programmatic and operational improvements to executive branch agencies. For fiscal year twenty twenty-seven GAO is requesting eight hundred sixty million dollars and increase of forty-eight point two million dollars above the fiscal year twenty twenty-six enacted level. Additionally, GAO's budget request includes fifty million dollars in offsets and supplemental appropriations for a total budget authority of nine hundred ten million dollars. This funding request includes over six million dollars to cover critical hiring, mandatory pay-related increases, and other personnel benefits, though the agency would be required to continue workforce reduction efforts. The request includes funding to continue IT modernization initiatives, optimize space at the headquarters building, and and undertake physical infrastructure enhancements. Each of your agencies provides important support for the work of the Senate. We rely on the timely, non-partisan analysis and information that you deliver to assist us in our jobs as legislators. That expert assistant requires highly talented and trained staff, a need to which is reflected in all of your budget requests. While GP O operates on a business model, human capital costs represent more than eighty percent of CBO and GAO's budgets. It's not uncommon for personnel budget costs to compromise the vast majority of agency budgets across the legislative branch. This dynamic continues to be a challenge in a constrained fiscal environment. In the face of this challenge, I look forward to our discussion and learning more about your agency's priorities for this year. And with that, I would like to turn to our ranking member, Senator Heinrich, for any remarks he would like to make.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and uh congratulations on your gavel. I very much look forward to um working with you uh constructively to craft uh the fiscal year twenty twenty-seven funding bill that meets the needs of Congress, and the legislative branch support agencies. Uh, I think it's important for the legislative branch to have the resources necessary to effectively carry out our constitutional responsibilities on behalf of the American people and I would like to thank the three witnesses for being here today and providing us testimony I would also like to thank the women and men of your agencies who work every day to facilitate our work here in the Senate. Uh, Miss Williams-Brown, thank you for guiding the work of the Government Accountability Office. pending the appointment of a new Comptroller General. The GAO plays an important role in providing oversight of government programs and spending as well as identifying waste in the federal government. In the fiscal year twenty twenty-seven, the GAO is requesting eight hundred and sixty million dollars to carry out that vital work an increase of forty-eight point two million dollars over the fiscal year, twenty twenty-six in acted level. And although your agency requested a nearly six percent increase, your budget request includes a reduction of a hundred and forty-three full-time employees. GAO has been flat-funded since fiscal year twenty-twenty-four, requiring the agency to absorb rising personnel and operating costs. At the same time, the GAO's workload in support of congre- congressional oversight continues to grow. With increasing use of the con- Congressional Review Act, to overturn agency actions, GAO must devote additional staff time to making those determinations, drawing resources away from other reports and functions demanded by Congress. Uh, Doctor Swagle, the Congressional Budget Office has requested nearly seventy-six million dollars to support its essential work for Congress, an increase of one point five million over the prior year. In fiscal year twenty twenty-six, CBO published more than one thousand cost estimates for legislation. legislation and appropriations bills and issued more than one hundred reports in support of Congress's work. All of this comes amid significant revenue uncertainty driven by the President's shifting tariff policies, and the conflict in the Middle East. To sustain this level of support work for Congress, CBO must retain highly skilled subject matter experts. I look forward to hearing from you um about your budget request and the critical work that CBO carries out. Mr. Helfer, the government publishing office is requesting a hundred and thirty-two million dollars to support personnel costs and agency operations, equal to last year's enacted level. GP O has an impressive record of st- of utilizing available balances to maintain congressional publishing levels. At the same time, GP O is operating in a rapidly changing information environment, where emerging technologies are changing expectations around accessibility, efficacy and security. Even with level funding, the agency has plans to support two long-standing capital investment prio priorities for XPUB and GovInfo. Again, thank you to all our witnesses for being here today and very much look forward to our discussion. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Now I would like to ask our witnesses to give a brief opening statement, about five minutes in length, please, so that we can have adequate time for questions. Your

Uh-huh. Yes.

Mm.

Thank you, Chair Fisher, Ranking Member Heinrich, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to present the Congressional Budget Office's budget request. And thank you for your continued support. CBO requests an appropriation of seventy six point three million dollars for twenty twenty seven that's an increase of one point five million dollars. or two percent from the amount provided in twenty twenty six. The request would address our increased cost for pay and benefits, allow us to further strengthen our IT and cyber security infrastructure, and enable us to add staff in areas of especially intense legislative interest. CBO's mission is to provide non-partisan analysis analysis to the Congress that is timely rigorous and transparent. When legislation is heading to a vote, we provide cost estimates and real-time analysis of am of amendments, often hundreds or even thousands of them for bills such as the NDAA. We provide analysis and technical assistance for large complex legislation such as the twenty twenty-five Reconciliation Act. For both sides in both chambers, we provide the analysis at the time that members need it. We produce budget and economic projections that incorporate the effects of recent legislation, of economic developments, and of administrative action. and we provide analysis of a broad range of issues in front of the Congress, bringing to bear data and analysis from a wide variety of sources. Demand for our work remains strong among congressional leadership, committees, and individual members. The additional resources we request would enhance our responsiveness and further strengthen our efforts to increase our transparency. In the current year, twenty twenty six, CBI will shrink from the two hundred seventy-four we started at um in February, so uh two months ago, to two hundred sixty-eight positions by the end of the fiscal year. So this is to this is to absorb the ongoing costs associated with strengthening our cyber security infrastructure. I'm grateful to the sub for the subcommittee's support in providing two point seventy-five million dollars in additional resources in the current year. The continued elevated costs. mean that the funding available for other activities remains essentially flat. For twenty twenty seven, eighty percent of the requested increase, so that's one point two million dollars, would cover increases in current employees' salaries and benefits, and then allow CBO to expand staff in the key areas of of congressional interest. Uh ultimately, the request would allow us to start the process of increasing our staffing, from two hundred sixty eight to two hundred eighty five. Six of the positions initially would enable us to refill the vacancies that will take place this year and then the eleven additional staff on top of that would strengthen our analysis of defense and home-wind security, of income security programs such as SNAP, and then enhance our transparency, expand our dynamic analysis, and further bolster our our cyber security and our publishing and communications The rest of the requested increase would go toward cyber security and IT costs. While our spending on these um uh functions on cyber security would remain elevated, that spending would decline from the current fiscal year. And the net then is the overall increase of two percent, of one point two percent. T of of two percent. Um CBO's would support our goal to provide budgetary and economic information when it is most useful to the Congress. For the appropriations committees, we will provide real-time, provision by provision estimates of the twelve annual appropriations bills and of any supplemental appropriations bills or continuing resolutions we will respond to thousands of requests for technical assistance and preliminary estimates often on a quick turn around, as committees craft. In summary, to achieve our goal of being as responsive as possible, CVO requests an increase of one point five million dollars, which is two percent. With your support, I look forward to continuing to provide timely and high-quality analysis to support the Congress. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Doctor Swagle. Mister Halperin, you are recognized.

Thank you. Uh, Chairman Fischer, Ranking Member Heinrich, thank you for allowing me to present GP O's Fiscal year twenty twenty seven appropriations request. Thank you for your past support of GPO and I look forward to working with you closely again. I'm requesting appropriations of a hundred and thirty-two million dollars for fiscal year twenty twenty seven, unchanged from our FY twenty-six appropriation. As you noted, GPO operates as a business enterprise and directly appropriated funds represent only about nine percent of GPO's total revenue. In FY twenty-five, the remainder of our more than one point three billion dollar budget came from GPO's billings to its other federal customers. We sell products and services to those customers and adjust pricing based on the cost of materials, labor, and overhead. Our model continues to res- deliver results. We closed our books for FY twenty-five with a net positive income of thirty-two point eight million dollars enabling us to continue investing in our team, equipment, and campus. Our FY twenty-seven request includes eighty million dollars for congressional publishing which is unchanged from our current appropriation. Based on our estimate of Congress's likely needs, informed by historical trends and available unexpended balances, we believe that this amount will be adequate for the coming fiscal year. For this account, we offset increased labor and material costs through Our request for public information programs count, through which we administer the federal depository library program is about forty-two point nine million dollars. Our final request is for nine point one million dollars for GPO's revolving fund to support key technology upgrades, the same amount as was appropriated last year, which is about two million dollars less than what it was in the FY twenty-five. About forty percent of that amount will support continued development of Xpub, our next generation composition engine. We are continuing to push forward with the final stages of development for Xpub, for bills, resolutions, and amendments. We've completed our first phase of testing with both the House and Senate and hope to complete the second expanded testing phase this summer. The remainder of our revolving fund request is for funds to support GovInfo, our on-line The data in that system supports the Library of Congress, Congress's own bulk data efforts, and dozens of other federal agencies, enabling Americans to access government information digitally rather than in print. Last year, this system received nearly two billion information retrieval requests, and that's a sixteen percent increase year over year. Overall, this is a big year for GPO. Along with the nation's two hundred and fiftieth birthday, GPO celebrated its own one hundred and sixty-fifth birthday in March, along with the century of producing the United States passport. We appreciate all of your support in the past, and hope it continues well into the future. Chairman Fischer, Ranking Member Heinrich, uh, thank you for this opportunity to present GPO's appropriations request, and for the support you and your staff have extended us. Look forward to answering any questions you might have.

Thank you, Mr. Halfrin. Um, Miss Brown, welcome. You are recognized.

Thank you. Chairwoman Fisher, Ranking Member Heinrich, I am pleased to be here today to present GAO's twenty twenty-seven budget request. I appreciate the support the committee has provided GAO in the past. GAO continues to be a solid investment for Congress and taxpayers. Last year, Congress and the executive branch implemented actions that resulted in financial benefits of over sixty-two billion dollars resulting from our work. And there remain hundreds of billions of dollars in potential financial benefits that have yet to be realized through congressional and executive branch action. We are requesting an increase of forty-eight point two million dollars, about five point nine percent, to help offset projected increase increases in costs. This would bring our appropriated request to just eight hundred and sixty million dollars. If enacted, this would be our first increase since fiscal year twenty twenty-four when we received a two point four percent increase. We are also seeking to use just over fifty million dollars in offsetting pr- appropriations for a total budget authority of nine hundred and ten million dollars. With this budget, our twenty twenty-seven staff level target is thirty-one hundred people. A D over four hundred and fifty from our twenty twenty four level. While requiring a smaller GAO, this level would allow us to continue to shrink with the least amount of disruption to our mission and workforce. GAO's mission is to support the Congress in carrying out its constitutional responsibility and improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the federal government for the benefit of the American people. As a nonpartisan, fact-based legislative support agency for Congress, demand for our work continues to be robust and spans the federal government's over seven trillion dollar budget. Wherever the federal dollars go, so goes GAO. Our work is driven by hundreds of requests, with generally just over half coming from mandates and law and committee reports, which are our highest priority. In addition to mandates and requests, we also respond to hundreds of additional requests for quick turn-around technical assistance. In addition to the sixty-two billion dollars in financial benefits I mentioned earlier our work has resulted in almost thirteen hundred non-financial benefits, over six hundred and seventy products issued, and eighteen hundred new recommendations. Moreover, we handled over sixteen hundred and eighty bid protests, and issued over four hundred and fifty legal decisions. The twenty twenty seven requested level will enable us to continue to support the priority oversight areas that have been highlighted by Congress, including identifying fraud, waste and abuse across the federal government and offering ways to prevent and mitigate it, IT and cyber security, science and tech and technology and its societal impacts, national security, and health care. This budget request will also enable us to continue to make modest investments in cyber security and advanced analytics to increase the sophistication and speed that we are able to address congressional needs. In closing, I appreciate the consideration of our twenty twenty-seven budget request. We will be issuing our State of the Nation's fiscal health report soon and understand the difficult trade-offs that have to be made. GAO is committed to continuing to do its part in being a responsible steward and commits to redoubling our efforts to continue to be a solid investment and a key player in continuing to help ensure that the federal government is efficient and effective for the American people. With your support, GAO will continue to provide nonpartisan fact-based information and analysis This concludes my opening statement, and I'd be happy to answer any questions at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Thank you, Miss Brown. Uh, Doctor Swagle, if I could begin with you please. You currently have a staff of approximately two hundred sixty-eight employees, and your budget requests include s funding to support two hundred eighty-five employees by the end of the fiscal year twenty-seven, which equates to two hundred seventy-eight FTEs then. And that would bring the agency's FTE level more in line with the level that was provided in fiscal year twenty twenty two do you have an optimal staff number that you feel CBO needs uh specifically what FTE level would position the agency

Oh.

to meet its stated goals of strengthening responsiveness and enhancing transparency to Congress

Uh thank you, yes. The two hundred eighty positions so corresponding to around two eighty two seventy eight two eighty FTEs that's the intended long-term uh size so that if if we can get to there that's an amount that will let us add people in the areas of especially intensive interest add some people who are flexible you know as as interest change and then it's a size that we can still manage so we wouldn't have to you know entirely change the agency And so that that would do it. So I wou I would not come back to the subcommittee, you know, the subsequent year for further, you know, to to grow larger.

You know, your budget request includes funding for four new analysts, um, who would focus on means-tested and defense programs. And you mentioned, uh, in your opening statement about, uh, for example, NDAA and the the time involved with, uh, providing information to our committee. Uh, priorities, Mm.

No, tha that's right, we I mean we're at our best when there's a sense in which we've answered the question before it's asked, and, you know, we talk to members, we talk to staff, and try to figure out where, you know, where you're going. And so, f for example, in supporting the reconciliation bill last year, we spent over a year working to improve our dynamic analysis and our analysis of means-tested programs. And it it we knew there's intense interest in both sides, on the effect of taxes and spending, on the economy and the feedback to the budget. And then we knew that Medicaid and SNAP were on the minds of members from talking to the committees and so that was one of the means-tested programs that we were uh looking at and that's, you know, we do the best we can and then maintaining the flexibility within within the agency.

We had a cyber security breach in twenty twenty five and so the subcommittee uh provided additional funding for that. It it was uh two point seven five million for uh cyber security related expenses. Can you provide us with an overview of the steps that CBO has taken since learning of

Yes, yes, absolutely, and and thank you again for those resources. We've used about it's one point three million of the two point seven five. The two point seven five was two year money. We used one, yeah, one point three million in some sense immediately in the response, and that was engaging with federal and um ejecting the adversary from our systems, um eliminating eliminating the the mechanisms that were used to persist in our systems and then strengthening our you know our various systems. Um uh we provided a lot of information to staff in the different committees and and I'm happy to provide more information to anyone on the details we are now in the process of further improving our systems installing new hardware new software and strengthening our monitoring and detection capabilities. Um I again um I can provide many details, but that's the the big picture.

Thank you. Thank you. And Mister Halprin, uh, boy, I have a a few seconds left here. Um you're transitioning pretty rapidly, I think, to digital technology and and those digital formats that we're looking at. So what's the future of congressional publishing and and how does your budget require? positions, CPO, uh to be able to support that future.

So the short answer is it's best to think of what GPO does as largely document conversion. So we need to be able to support the entire range of congressional documents from where you go to ledge council and provide us with a pristine electronic file, all the way to you, Senator Fischer, are on the floor and you write out a bill in long hand, sign it at the top, and we need to process that and give you something good at the end. Most of our labor, most of our effort goes into perfecting that electronic file. So that can be uh distributed digitally or it can be trai- it can be distributed as a tangible document. Either one, we're set up for the future.

She said she just got

The most important thing we can do is update our software stack, which also supports Congress. So when you go to Senate-led council and you say, that's my bill, they hit control P to print that document, it's GPO's software stack that takes over. So that is our highest priority because that piece of software came out when I was twelve, and I'm a long way from twelve.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so we are on the cusp of being able to turn that over to our customers, hopefully by the end of the year, but that's ultimately up to them.

Great. Great, thank you. Thank you very much. Senator Heinrich, you're recognized.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, Ms. Williams-Brown, uh, Congress has made relatively unprecedented use of the Congressional Review Act in this Congress, uh, including twenty-two resolutions that passed into law so far. That makes it especially important for Congress to understand how GAO determines whether an agency action qualifies as a rule and when a rule is considered major what factors does GAO look at when deciding whether an agency action is a rule under the CRA?

So there is a a process that our attorneys go through, so they consider a number of factors. Um, I think since nineteen eighty six we have issued over eighty CRA decisions, fifty have happened in the last five years, so there are a number of procedural legal steps that we go through to to make a determination. There's specific um thresholds um that have to be considered in terms of it being a rule for CRA purposes, so they are a specific set of criteria that we evaluate each individual request against, when we get a

Can you walk through some of those?

So, happy to provide an answer for the record in terms of the specific steps.

Yeah. So, for example, if something is um is articulated elsewhere in statute and is limited in in nature, not broadly applicable, would that impact whether it was considered a rule or uh or some other authorized

That's part of the calculus. So there's a specific CRA definition um, that lays out the roles under the Administrative Procedures Act. So we will look at that part of the process and whether any of the exceptions apply in the Administrative Procedures Act uh are relevant in making a determination about whether something is a rule.

So what distinguishes a major rule from other rules for the purpose of that review?

So there is um once again I think the the The Administrative Procedures Act lays out what the definition of a major rule is, and uh there are a number of steps that have to be taken if a rule is determined major. And um So I think if you're looking for like a a specific piece of it, happy to provide a response.

What what role does OMB play in that determination?

OMB does have a role.

Hmm.

Oh, information points. Oh, I need to get these.

Hmm.

Yeah. So CRA does it lays out, Scope of the role. it defines what a major role is and OMB also has a role in the process.

What is that role?

So OMB's they determine if it's major. Certain cost benefits in in a scope of the role.

Hmm.

K. So it's the scope of the role and cost benefit analysis that's associated with the role goes into. making a determination of whether a rule is a major or not.

Um GAO already manages a substantial workload that includes new mandates, recurring mandates, bid protests, and technical assistance to Congress. How does GAO's budget request help the agency handle its current workload and any new mandates?

So the the current request, it it would allow us to continue to fulfill our mission with the amount of disruption. While it would require a smaller GAO, it would enable us to meet our mission requirements across mandates, requests, our bid protest decisions, and the other legal decisions that we make. It also reflects the fact that GAO had um we we had a number of oversight responsibilities during the pandemic in response to the Inflation Reduction Act. Also the investment in infrastructure and jobs act required a certain amount of oversight, and we were provided supplemental funding, um, to increase the size of our workload. So as some of those responsibilities peel off, it, uh, it's how we're able to become a, a smaller organization in an orderly fashion.

Mister Swagle, um, in the current environment, under the current administration, major policy shifts uh quickly sometimes through executive action,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

through uh the result of litigation, court decisions, and it seems that kind of uncertainty could create real challenges for your projections at CBO. Uh let me start with the example of of tariffs. Has has CBO incorporated revenue from the

Mm-hmm.

administration's tariff policies into its projections?

Um, yes, we have, and the, as you said, the tariffs change fre- frequently, so it's a challenge for us to in some sense update the projections often enough.

How did the Supreme Court's decision affect those projections?

Ah, so the Supreme Court decision would take out two trillion dollars of revenue over the ten year window. The administration then has put up other tariffs. That gets back a bit less than half of that. So think of eight hundred or uh billion, and then they have a whole suite of other investigations that we haven't haven't concluded and we haven't yet analyzed.

Thank thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Heinrich. Uh, Senator Hustead, a new member of our committee, welcome to the Appropriations Committee and to this subcommittee. Uh, your experience and your expertise I think is gonna be invaluable as a member of Appropriations. So welcome.

Well, thank you.

Okay. Me too. Um uh Dir Director Swagle, I'm gonna uh I'm gonna direct my first question to you, but I wanna give some context to it. Um AI technologies are productivity gainers. They help us to augment human skills and talents, particularly in the areas of administration, uh content production analysis, technical work, and then you have the ability with closed AI systems or AI agents that are mer are merging to do enhance that even more. And so my question, you know, you're requesting uh a, you know, seventy six million dollars, two percent increase, and and um and we're all uh keenly aware of the federal government's financial situation. Uh how do you uh what are you doing to incorporate AI into the work that you do to enhance your productivity gains and efficiency and be able to do more with less?

Okay. No I absolutely, and I'll start by saying absolutely on the productivity enhancements, we have that in our macro forecast and therefore in the budget baseline and the revenues. So we have the big picture on the details within CBO, we've been using AI tools for a couple of years now, especially on the programming side. So, well GitHub Co-Pilot is the particular tool that we've been using. Um, eh we have sixty licenses now, we're gonna go up to a hundred twenty, so to improve our programming and and make that activity more productive. We're now working on using other tools and some of the degenerative AI tools to process legislation and, you know, not replace the analyst but help an analyst understand and analyze complex legislation. And and importantly, we'll have

And and so looking at the present and the future,

Mm.

w what how much productivity gain do you think

Ah. So on the programming side, we're already seeing very large productivity gains. On the analysis side, we're still trying to figure it out and, you know, we have some exciting beginnings. I'm hoping ultimately that lets us get through more requests, provide more analysis. And just the reality is that there's way more requests for cost estimates than we can provide. And I'm hoping that the AI tools will be let us get deeper into the backlog and satisfy more members.

Okay. Um, Ms. Williams-Brown, uh you highlighted the focus in your testimony on um GAO increasing the use of emerging technologies like artificial intelligence. Uh, year over year GAO GAO requested funding increases, uh basically the the same question I wanna direct your way, uh help dig into this, h what what productivity gains, what are you seeing now, what do you in what do you project that you'll be able to do with AI tools, agents, coding, um closed systems that would help you uh enhance your productivity?

Absolutely. So we have uh a number of places that we're currently leveraging AI. Um one has to do with audits that state and local governments have to have in place when they receive a certain level of federal funding. Uh, auditors produce audit reports that go into a clearinghouse. We developed a tool that allows us to actually leverage that data. So we have used large language models to do that, to allow us to jumpstart our audit work. We've also leveraged AI just to track um potential mandates that we we get from Congress, we can stay on top of those and identify the areas of interest for congress. We've also leveraged technology to look for um subject level analysis. We've also built our own um tool in-house that we can use within our closed network and leverage our system. So we are really focused on taking a human in the loop approach. It's critically important for us because the more we can allow ai to help us leverage um more administrative level tasks, the more we can have our analysts focus on the higher order thinking that has to go into the work that we do.

yeah yeah and so and so just quickly also you mentioned the auditing task with the fraud that we've seen out there across programs uh uh particularly child care, medicaid, medicare uh What do you think the potential is for incorporating these tools within the next few years to enhance those fraud detection efforts?

I think there's definite um promise in in that area, and we're already seeing some programs, CMS for example, they leverage um artificial intelligence to look for indicators of fraudulent activity.

Okay. Thank you, chair.

Thank you, Senator Hustead. We've been joined by the Vice Chair of the Folk

Thank you, thank you.

Welcome and uh please, the speech.

Yeah, Senator Viger, thank you, look forward to working with you now on this committee as well. Um this subcommittee supports really critical work from the architect of the cap capital to maintain our workspaces to the capital police that are keeping us safe and it of course it supports the agencies that are in front of us today all of you really help us deliver for our constituents with critical resources and analysis and by ensuring our work is accessible to the public. So I wanna thank each of you and all of your staffs who do incredible work, um, for the excellent support you provide to this committee and Congress. We couldn't do our jobs without you, and let me just say this, I strongly support additional funding for GAO, s CBO and GPO for FY twenty-seven. I know how important their work is. Uh, Director Swagle, since you're here in front of me today, I wanted to start with you and ask you a question. What single piece of legislation has contributed the most to

Mm.

Um uh the single piece of legislation is the twenty twenty five reconciliation act, and that increased the deficit by four point seven trillion dollars over ten years, including the interest costs and the the dynamic feedback.

Right. So it was the biggest debt driver in a decade. Just for the record, every democrat opposed it, every republican voted for it. And I am personally just really concerned because what happened is The Republicans maxed out our national credit card for corporations and billionaires, and then they told working families the wallet was empty when it comes to health care. So I just wanted to say that for the record today.

Mm.

Um, Director Swigel, I wanted to ask you about President Trump's FY twenty-seven budget.

Mm-hmm.

It requests one and a half trillion dollars in defense spending. That's about a half a trillion increase over this year's Pentagon funding.

I see.

That is a outrageous increase, and it comes as the president is also requesting to defend programs that help make sure that Americans afford the basics. Can you help us put those figures in perspective?

Mm-hmm.

How does that dramatic increase in defense spending compare to something like the cost to attend extend ACA tax credits?

Ah, okay. Um, so as you said, the defense request is about five hundred billion dollars above the um you know the resources in the baseline. There's another two hundred billion dollars of interest, roughly two hundred billion dollars of interest

Okay,

Mm.

so it's a a roughly four hundred and fifty billion dollar increase in the defense budget um and a permanent extension of the ACA tax credits um would have cost three hundred and fifty billion I think that's kind of astounding uh,

Uh, uh on the deficit, it would increase it On the deficit, it would increase it um, ab well above the baseline by the five hundred billion plus the interest costs for the year so um uh it would go from you know two trillion to two and a half trillion.

So as in future years the reality is the cost is gonna be a lot more because of interest.

Would be would be higher, that's right.

Correct, yeah. So I hope all the deficit hawks were paying attention to this 'cause it's pretty astounding. Um let me also ask you about CBO's projections of gross domestic product GDP. In its regularly updated economic projections, CBO provides estimates of potential GDP over future years. What are the CBO's latest GDP growth projections?

Oh, okay. So we have growth this year, twenty twenty six, at two point two percent, and that's a boost fr well from the positive effects of the um twenty five act on growth. Then we have it going down to one point eight percent after that, as a negative from the tariffs and immigration changes.

Right. Yeah.

hit the economy.

So you're you are predicting essentially one point eight percent growth. The president's budget estimates GDP GDP growth at three percent.

That's right.

Um those are really apples to apples comparisons that we're talking about, but the White House Budget Office seems to be much less cautious than you are. Um will the deficits projected by the White House be higher if the economy performs closer to CBO's projections than the president budget budgets estimate?

Um yes, that's right. they have three percent growth off into the future, a bit more this year, and revenues would be lower if um that growth is not attained.

Well, I I'm deeply concerned about that kind of selling America a false bill of goods, so I really appreciate that we do have an independent impartial scorekeeper and I appreciate all the work you guys do. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Murray. Senator Browns, you are recognized.

Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, thanks for being here today. Appreciate it. Um Director Swagle, I I'm just curious, I I wanted to follow up a little bit. Um the w with regard to the twenty twenty five uh working family tax cuts,

Yeah.

the the the reconciliation product, you indicated that it was responsible for a a a an increase in in the deficit. You this is based on not only the reduction in taxes to American families, but then it would also be based upon an analysis of what an increase in economic activity would be. And I'm just curious, you have some s- pretty strict rules about how you determine uh what the the benefit or the improvement might be with regard to the economy.

Uh-huh.

Can you talk a little bit about the difference between your analysis and what OMB might be using for their analysis on economic improvements?

Yeah, absolutely. And a key issue um is that, well, uh uh sorry, let me put it this way, there are two positive impacts of the twenty-five act on the economy. I mean there's there's many, but the two key ones are the effect on business investment from lower taxes on on capital, and then the effect of the improved work incentives on the labor force, right. So the changes in Medicaid and in SNAP will lead, will improve incentives for work. And so we have that, what the President's Economist

So, really what we're talking about is right now you're taking a conservative approach to what you believe might be the improvement in economic benefit for American families and thus an increase in taxes based upon a larger economic base of activity versus what OMB would be. How soon before we actually know how close these two numbers are?

Uh, it's, I mean, it will probably be a couple of years. I'm thinking with the twenty seventeen act, it took two years to see the, you know, really the the positive impact of the act, but in part because the tariffs in twenty eighteen and sometimes muffled business investment in twenty eighteen and it showed up in twenty nineteen. And so I'd say in two years we'll really have a good sense of uh of what's happening.

And once again we have some tariff activity that once again are impacting things.

That's right.

We don't know what the actual tariffs would be in the next coming years because some of that hasn't been decided by the courts yet. But once again that is perhaps impacting the immediate effect. And do we know yet what the tariffs would do in terms of bringing back in economic activity or growth within our industrial base, have we been able to figure that in yet?

Ah yeah, so we have been analyzing that, and our tariff analysis includes that, that some activities would shift, you know, from, you know, amongst foreign foreign countries, and some of that would come back to the US. So there'd be some positives on um on some industries in the US.

Okay, thank you. Um, so when we talk about a a significant decrease or an increase in the deficit, it it is based on a ten year anticipation, based upon the current numbers that you use, which are probably different than what the president's OMB would anticipate,

Mm-hmm.

and it will take time to determine which one is perhaps more accurate.

No, that that that's that's absolutely fair.

Okay, thank you. Um, Acting Comptroller Brown, uh currently GAO has a goal of issuing opinions within a hundred and twenty days following formal acceptance if an agency should have submitted a rule to Congress. Um, on January thirtieth, I sent a letter to you asking for a GAO opinion that a United States Postal Service rule that had the net effect of decreasing service for rural Americans, should have been submitted to Congress. I was glad to see that GAO formally accepted my request on February thirteenth, and I understand that GAO is currently working on this opinion and anticipates completing the request by June. With additional resources, would it be possible for GAO to increase its review capacity and shorten the associated time horizon horizons.