Hearings to examine the Small Business Administration Native 8(a) program.

Good morning. I call this oversight hearing to order. Today we will examine the Small Business Administration's Native Eight A program and the role that it plays in economic self-determination of our native communities. This isn't a new topic for oversight. Um, we have regularly conducted oversight of this program. And that remains important because eight A, in this senator's view, is a success story. It's not a fraud, as some have, have mistakenly alleged, and quite honestly that's terminology that I would just categorical categorically reject. This prog program may not be well understood, which may be part of our challenge here. But it is important to note that it si- simultaneously provides benefits to the federal government and to Native communities all across our country. That's true in Alaska, that's true in Hawaii, and in most every state. As structured today, the eight-A program leads to a more responsive and resilient supply base for the federal government. It delivers mission-critical work for civilian and defense agencies. And it promotes economic development in Native communities while helping to fulfill the federal trust responsibility. Now lately we've seen some criticisms that eight A is an illegitimate DEI program. Also concerns over whether revenues and earnings are leading to sufficient community benefits. Now on this first question, I do have a letter from SBA Administrator uh Kelly Loeffler confirming that the native SBA eight A program is not DEI which I will enter into the record. Uh, as the committee with jurisdiction over tribal and native affairs these are matters that we must explore here with testimony from those that are involved in the program. As we engage on this, I think we should start by making just a few things clear. First, the United States has unique obligations to Indian tribes and native people that are grounded in the United States Constitution in our treaties in our statutes in our court decisions and executive orders. And based on that, beginning in the nineteen eighties, Congress chose to make Native entity-owned firms eligible for the eight A program. And that was not based on race, it was not based on DEI, but it was based on Congress's constitutional authority over Indian affairs and the long-standing federal trust responsibility to Native peoples. Second, the firms owned by tribes, Alaska Native corporations, and Native Hawaiian organizations participate in the eight A program under a different statutory framework than firms that are owned by individuals. But that too is deliberate. That's not an accident, that's deliberate. Congress set up this framework because Native entity owned firms are accountable to entire Native communities. That's a different responsibility. They're accountable to entire Native communities reinvesting their earnings in broader community priorities and advancing economic self-determination. Third point, Congress has reaffirmed and expanded the inclusion of Indian tribes, ANC's and Native Hawaiian organizations in the eight-A program. And these were also deliberate decisions, and remain the right decisions in my view, so long as we maintain the program integrity and the transparency. Now some suggest that by restricting eight-A eligibility, we're suddenly gonna save a ton of taxpayer dollars, but in truth it would actually cost the federal government a key contracting tool, and further disadvantage Native peoples around the country. excluding them from any potential participation in federal procurement and the community benefits that they provide. And that's especially true in Alaska, where Congress took a different route. Uh, they did that as they settled the Aboriginal land claims. Um, it was different than than in the lower forty-eight, but they transferred land and assets to corporations that are owned by Alaska Native people. That distinctive structure reflects Congress's recognition of the unique circumstances of Alaska Natives and supports their self-determination. Congress actually amended ANCSA, or the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, to clarify that ANC's are eligible to participate in eight A and that they were acting under their constitutional authorities. making access to federal procurement programs a key part of the settlement and Alaska Native economic development. When Congress passed ANCSA, one of the goals was to connect communities that were primarily reliant on subsistence hunting and fishing essentially non-cash economies but seeking to uh help advance them within the American business world. The eight-day program has been pivotal to that, building up managerial leadership and business capacity in Alaska Native communities. Now I know that some colleagues and federal agencies are conducting reviews of the eight A program including participation of Native-owned entities. And those reviews must be based on facts and in the law, ensuring that SBA and agencies are equipped to administer an effective program as Congress intended. while targeting any waste, fraud and abuse. I think we all recognize that we don't wanna see that within our system. So, I'm I'm pleased that today we're able to to focus very keenly on some of these issues today. I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses who are involved in Native Eight-A contracting including those who have traveled down from Alaska to testify before us, thank you for that and they will share how the Eight-A program advances economic determination and tribal self-sufficiency in a manner consistent with congressional intent that is good for Native peoples. So I now turn to the Vice Chair for his opening statement.

Thank you, Chair Murkowski, and uh thank you to everyone in the hearing room and watching on-line and especially our testifiers and our Native leaders. Thank you for being here. I want to begin by uh welcoming Kerrianne Alou, President of the Native Hawaiian Organization Association, thank you for coming. Sorry about the weather. Um Um thanks to your advocacy and leadership, NHOA has been a valued partner to the committee. Mahalo for being here today. In an effort to address historic barriers facing Native economies in the eighties, Congress has expanded the SBA's section eight A program to include Native-owned entities. Barriers such as inadequate infrastructure, limited access to capital, and the need for agency approval slowed the development of Native economies. The expansion of the eight A program to Native entities was an important and deliberate step towards leveling the playing field after decades of social and economic disadvantage that left Native communities behind. The eight A program does not exist because it is DEI, it is Congress recognizing our trust and treaty obligations to Native communities. An understanding that small business owned by them can be an way to support Native economies and set them up for long-term success. The best social program is a good job. That's because a portion of the Native Eight A profits must be reinvested back in Native communities. In in um twenty twenty four, for example, NHO's Eight A participants invested more than twenty-five million dollars back to the Native Hawaiian community in one year. But the Eight A program is not perfect. or immune from challenges many other federal programs face. Allegations of waste, fraud and abuse cannot and should not be ignored. So let me be clear, if there are bad actors in this program, they should be thoroughly investigated and held accountable, just as they should be in any federal program. But calling for a blanket pause on all native eight A contracts or even an end to the entire program because of allegations of wrongdoing by a few is not fair, and it is not effective. Instead, we should focus on strengthening oversight, tightening regulations where needed, and ensuring the program operates the way that Congress intended. Thank you to our witnesses for testifying today, and I look forward to our discussion.

Thank you, Vice Chair. Senator Mullen, would you care to make an opening statement? I know you intended to introduce our first witness, and you may proceed with that if you would like.

No, I'm good. I'll just make an introduction.

If you would begin then, kick off the panel.

obviously um the chair for uh for getting this um hearing together because obviously we got a lot of phone calls about it when it first came out. Um I had the privilege to introduce my chief, Chief uh Hoskins, who has uh been a a a good friend of mine and uh to Oklahoma, especially Northeast Oklahoma. Um uh uh chief, it's uh always great to have you in this committee. Um I know you'll bring an important to this topic as Cherokee Federal is the largest contractor headquartered in the state of Oklahoma. Through Cherokee Federal, the Cherokee Nation serves more than sixty federal agencies, supports every branch for our our military and protects our nation's security by assisting our brave war fighters both at home and abroad. Uh, earl earlier this month, Cherokee Federal companies were recently selected to be part of the mission supporting the build-up of President's Golden Dome missile defense system. I love to see the impact this is having through outer state and across the globe. Uh, when I'm back home and drive around Northeast Oklahoma, which is which is home to me, um, I see tangible things that just would not be possible without Cherokee Nation as uh federal contractors' revenue such as continued expansion on the health care system and and my town, Stillwell, a new housing, uh upgrading water systems in rural Oklahoma, and I think one of the most important things, and I have been to Alaska working with the late uh Don Young about this, is immersion of of Cherokee Nation's language campus. Um underneath Cherokee Nation's leadership, uh they have uh built an entire campus that teaches kids K through eighth grade, uh the Cherokee Nation language. And they're taught school. They rewrite the curriculum. Uh, they have an entire, an entire division just wrote, just made up, literally just rewriting the books in in Cherokee. And exclusively Cherokee language is taught K through eighth grade. When they get into ninth grade, it goes into English. What a way to preserve the the the English, uh, or the, uh, Cherokee, uh, tongue. I, I, and I wanna say this on a, on a different note, on a personal note. My kids uh went to a small K through eighth school, uh it's called Zine, uh Zine Jets. And um of course everybody knows everybody in that little small small community. Um and the principal at the time drove the bus, the, you know, the the uh the coaches drove the buses, everybody drove the buses. And I was taking my kids to school one morning and a Zine school bus broke down right in front of us. Now they only had three buses that were running. And I called the chief, um, actually I think you called me. I think I was on the phone with the chief and uh I said, " Man, I said we got another uh bus broke down." And he started he started kinda chuckling about it. And before I knew it, uh, th- at that time the principal, Benham, uh, called me uh just a few days later and said Cherokee Nation was buying them a new bus. Now, uh, a lot of people, they don't see the impact that this happens, but because the programs that we're talking about today allows the investments back in our communities. There is so much work that has been done um uh throughout our community because of not just Cherokee Nation but the other tribes that are that operate within our state too but it's pretty neat to see the direct impact and how fast they can move uh uh there's no telling how long it would take in Zion to get a new bus, if it wasn't for Cherokee Nation and they did it in days uh and not not months or even a year for budgeting so That's just my personal perspective. Thank you for doing this again. I I I can't stay the entire hearing, um, but I'll stay as long as I can. Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Mullen, and and thank you for reminding um so many that oftentimes the the benefits that go back to the community, um, they're not making the front page of of the big newspapers, but they're making a difference in the lives of those who live in that community. And these are, these are some of the, the intangibles that we need to, I guess, make more tangible, more visible because the benefits are huge. To your point, if those kids couldn't get to school, well, everybody has a problem. Um, and you could have just waited, but decisions are made and you have a nimbleness to respond, um, because of, of how, uh, benefits can can flow back to to the tribal organizations. Um, good example. I appreciate that. Uh, so to you, Chief, um, thank you for being here today and we're looking forward to your testimony before the committee again. You've been back before on multiple occasions and we welcome you back.

Can I have a correction real quick, too?

Please.

It wasn't the principal, it was the superintendent. Sorry. I'm gonna get a phone call on that one.

Yeah, yeah.

The record stands corrected.

Yeah. Yeah, superintendent and venom.

Yeah. Um, following Mister Hoskin's testimony, Chief Hoskin's testimony this morning, we're joined by Catherine Carlton. Catherine is the president of the Chugach Alaska Corporation. She is also the policy chair of the Native American Contractors Association, NACA. She uh is seen very frequently here in in Washington DC, but your advocacy on behalf of of all of the Native American uh contractors is deeply appreciated. So uh thank you for joining us today. Uh also coming from Alaska is Polly Watson. Polly is the Vice President of Operations for the Bristol Bay Native Corporation, and has been um one of our uh significant leaders out in her region for years. And uh I know we'll offer strong testimony today uh in in helping us understand some of these community benefits. And then Senator Schatz has has introduced uh Kerrianne Alu, who is the president of the Native Hawaiian Organ Organizations Association, and we welcome you to the committee this morning. Um, we will now uh begin with you, Chief Hoskins. I will remind everyone that your full statements will be incorporated as part of the record, so if you would uh try to keep your comments to about five minutes, then we will have plenty of opportunity for discussion afterwards. Chief, if you can start us off this morning. Welcome.

What a chair chair Murkowski, uh Vice Chair uh Schatz, uh Senator Mullen. I appreciate the opportunity to testify to the importance of the small business administration's aid aid program to chairgunation and to countless tribal governments across the United States. Tribal self-determination requires economic self-sufficiency. For decades the federal government recognized and encouraged this principle. But sadly, That idea is under attack. These attacks undermine the progress that tribal nations have worked generations to achieve. The primary objective of Cherokee Nation businesses and its dedicated contracting arm Cherokee Federal is to reduce our reliance on federal appropriations. Our government-to-government relationship with the United States dates to the founding of this country. Although we must and we do work to hold the United States to its treaty and trust responsibilities, After more than two hundred and fifty years, we're still waiting for the United States to fully comply. At Cherokee Nation, we are restless, we are ambitious, and we refuse to wait. We've worked diligently to carve our own economic path to make up for centuries of economic disenfranchisement. SBA's eight-A program has been key to this effort. The eight-A program is not a handout. It's not a DEI initiative. It's established by statute pursuant to the Indian Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution. The eight A program is a modern extension of a sovereign to sovereign relationship. Now that point bears repeating. Cherokee Nation's participation in the eight A program is not race-based. The Supreme Court's consistently affirmed that the relationship between the United States and federally recognized tribes is political, not racial. The eight program reflects this political and legal relationship. This is settled law. It's discouraging to now hear some federal officials claim differently. Those claims are either designed to fit a preferred narrative or they're born of ignorance. Cherokee Nation's contracting arm is a vital contributor to the federal industrial base serving more than sixty federal agencies. We operate in defense, technology, health, and intelligence sectors, offering innovative capabilities in support of this country and its war fighters. Each day our global workforce of more than four thousand five hundred professionals demonstrates that our work is rooted in merit, performance, and fulfillment of a long-term sovereign mission. Our contracting work translates into tangible impacts for our citizens, our government, and the entirety of Northeast Oklahoma. Under tribal law, our companies are required to return a minimum of thirty-seven percent of their net income to Cherokee Nation's general fund. Those resources are reinvested directly into services and programs that improve the daily lives of Cherokee Nation citizens. The remaining funds stay in our businesses to create even more jobs and more opportunity. The funds provided to our government by our businesses help sustain the largest tribally operated health system in Indian country, revitalize our culture and heritage, and modernize critical infrastructure to ensure long-term self-sufficiency. Over the last decade, our contracting businesses have contributed at least three hundred and sixty-four million dollars to these essential tribal programs. Given our success in the eight A program, given what it means to the Cherokee people, And in light of the unfair criticism, I must tell you that I'm worried. I'm worried that this criticism will stall our progress and become yet another unfulfilled promise by the United States. Cherokee Nation supports transparent and well-regulated eight A program. Credible claims of wrongdoing should be investigated and lawbreakers should be held accountable. But native contracting and the eight A program are not high-risk endeavors. marked by fraud or abuse. Words matter, especially reckless words. I'm not here today to debate the use of terms like fraud magnet, straw man, crooks and swindlers, which have been used, I would note, to characterize participants in the eight A program, including to letters to federal agencies. I'll simply say that these unfounded claims are having a chilling effect on our operations. Our teams, a quarter of whom are veterans, and all of whom pride themselves on their integrity are now facing questions from contracting officers about whether their operations, our operations, are under investigation. They should not be asked to bear this burden. The eight A program has been transformative. It leads to self-sufficiency and the Congress should stand by the eight A program. What a

Thank you, Chief. Miss Carlton, welcome.

Thank you, Chairman Murkowski, Vice Chairman Schatz and Senator Mullen for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Catherine Curlton. I serve as president of Chugach Alaska Corporation, past co-chair and current policy chair of the Native American Contractors Association, and I am a proud Chugach shareholder. I am Inupiat. I was born in Cordova, Alaska, a small fishing town in the Chugach region with a population of about twenty five hundred. The SBA eight A program been foundational to my professional journey. My education was supported through Chugach programs funded by federal contracting earnings. I began my career in two thousand and five as an accounting technician, supporting our eight A contracts and progressed through a range of finance and operational leadership leadership roles, including serving as president of our training and education eight A subsidiaries. Today, I have the privilege of leading the corporation and reinvesting earnings back into our people. That firsthand experience demonstrates how the 8 program works in practice as a performance-based pathway that converts earned revenue into lasting community opportunity. With that perspective in mind, I want to walk through a few key points. Congress created Alaska Native Corporations to advance the long-term social, cultural, and economic well-being of Alaska Native people. And it e- expressly recognized ANC's, tribes, and Native Hawaiian organizations as eligible 8 participants. based on a long-standing political and legal relationship, not race. Chugach has partnered with the United States through the eight A program since nineteen ninety-three. And for us it provided the pathway to recover from the devastating Exxon Valdez oil spill in our region and rebuild our business. Today we operate both eight A and non-eight A companies that compete side-by-side in the federal marketplace just as Congress intended. At Chugach alone, we delivered thirty-two point six million in community and shareholder benefits in twenty-twenty-four. Supporting education, workforce training, cultural preservation, and economic stability in rural Alaska. Our scholarship and training programs equip Alaska natives with transferable skills. Our cultural programs like New Chick Spirit Camp pass knowledge to the next generation. And community infrastructure projects like the housing facility called Nazvik in Valdez strengthen local resilience. Across NACA member companies, Native contractors delivered more than point three billion in community benefits in twenty twenty four, precisely the outcome Congress envisioned. Through the eight A program, native-owned firms deliver mission critical services that directly support national security. Chugach services a hundred services hundreds of infrastructure, communications and sustainment contracts that keep essential systems on-line from operating airfield systems at Naval Air Station Fallon, home of Top Gun to sustaining mission essential communications aboard U S Navy vessels like the USS Abraham Lincoln. This work is awarded not by preference, but because of our proven performance, cost discipline, and reliability under strict oversight. The eight A program gives federal agencies lawful accountable options when urgency and efficiency matter in practice Soul Source eight A awards often execute in thirty to sixty days compared to twelve to eighteen months for traditional procurements reducing administrative cost, overhead, and mission delay. Sole source ath- sole source authority is often misunderstood, but it isn't a shortcut or a loophole. Every contract still has to be approved by the SBA, priced fairly, and follow strict profit limits set by law. Agencies must review a company's qualifications, evaluate detailed proposals, and negotiate the final price, often creating more oversight, transparency, and value for taxpayers than traditional competitive processes. Native eight A companies operate under some of the most prescriptive requirements in federal contracting, including ownership and control tests, audited financials, eligibility reviews, subcontracting limits, and detailed reporting. That rigor is why NACA members are trusted partners of the United States government. We support oversight that is targeted, data driven, and fair because misuse anywhere in the system undermines trust everywhere. What we caution against are one size fits all changes that dismantle a program that works for tax. federal missions, and Native communities alike. Recent media coverage has painted a misleading picture of the 8 program and Native participation. If Congress acts on that misinformation by weakening the 8 tools, the consequences will be real. Agencies lose lose speed and flexibility, missions face disruption, and in our Native communities, scholarships shrink, jobs disappear, and opportunity narrows for the next generation. Chairman Murkowski. Vice Chairman Schatz and members of the committee, thank you for your leadership and I look uh for f I and for the opportunity to share this perspective I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Miss Carlton. Miss Polly Watson, welcome.

Thank you, Chairperson Murkowski, Vice Chair Schatz and Senator Mullen. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am Polly Watson and I'm here on behalf of Bristol Bay Native Corporation, an Alaska Native corporation. formed under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. I have worked for BBNC for over eight years and currently serve as the Vice President of Operations. I am also a BBNC shareholder. My family is from the community of Perryville, a village of less than one hundred residents, located on the eastern side of the Alaska peninsula. Roughly five hundred miles from Anchorage and it costs r- about sixteen hundred dollars round trip airline ticket per person. to go home. BBNC currently has more than twelve thousand Alaska Native shareholders and approximately eleven thousand descendants who have ancestral ties to Bristol Bay region the mission of Bristol Bay Native Corporation is enriching our Native way of life we deliver on this mission in a merit merit of ways paying direct financial quarterly dividends to our shareholders providing educational and s- vocational scholarships, assisting the workforce development and job searches, promoting cultural and language preservation, memorial fund, and being good stewards of the lands and resources in the Bristol Bay Region. Lands our people have relied on for subsistence for thousands of years. BBNC is able to provide these services to its shareholders and their descendants in large part due to the financial and successes of our operating subsidiaries. We operate a diverse portfolio of businesses, several of which participate in the SBA eight A program. These companies deliver critical services to federal agencies in areas such as logistics, construction, facility support, information technology, professional services, and mission support. The eight A program functions as an outcome-driven model. Performance is directly tied to shareholder benefit and community reinvestment. One example is our in-house mentorship program through which we mentor independent village corporations in our region to become successful federal contractors. Through this program we share compliance systems and operational support that they can c- compete on their own. This approach builds local capacity, creates additional benefits to those villages their shareholders and expands the pool of our qualified small contractors serving the federal government. Another example is our partnership with the State of Alaska Division of Motor V- Motor Vehicles to deliver mobile DMV services directly to rural villages. Th- through this program we have worked with the DMV to bring Real ID and driver's license services to seven villages in the Bristol Bay region serving five hundred and forty-four rural residents. By bringing these services directly to villages, we remove barriers to obtaining the real ID and obtaining a driver's license and making it easier for residents, while also reducing burdens on families and the state. At the same time, the federal government benefits directly from contracting with BBNC's experienced and talent-driven companies. Agencies receive high-quality services delivered efficiently at a competitive cost. in mission critical areas such as defense, infrastructure, healthcare, and professional services, speed and reliability matter. BBNC establishes clear and accountability through strong governance, our compliance program, our employee tenure, and we have made continuous um site visits, regular reviews, reporting, and performance monitoring. This layer of governance strengthens internal controls, enhances transparency, and reduces performance risk for government co- customers. We take this responsibility seriously because our shareholders and our community depend on it. The SBA program is a proven mechanism for building lasting economy capacity and strengthens Alaska Native communities, delivers value to the federal and state partners, and creates opportunity where it is most needed.

Thank you for this opportunity to testify.

Thank you, Polly. And finally, we will hear from Miss Kerrianne Alou.

Good morning, Chairperson Murkowski, Vice Chair Schatz and Senator Mullen. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Kerrianne Alou and I am President of the Native Hawaiian Organizations Association or NHOA. I am also Chairperson of Nakopuna Foundation, a Native Hawaiian organization, and also serve as a board member of the Native American Contractors Association. I appreciate your leadership in examining how the SBA's Native Ada program supports economic self-determination in Native communities. At its core, the Native Ada program is not about preference or advantage. It is about creating lasting economic pathways, uh, sorry, about creating lasting pathways to economic participation that benefit both the government and Native communities. Native Hawaiian organizations, or " NHOs", are non-profit, community-based entities that own for-profit eight A companies. These companies perform federal work and the proceeds are reinvested directly into the Native Hawaiian community, into education, workforce development, health care, cultural preservation, and land conservation. That reinvestment is not optional. It is a condition of participation in the NH O eight A program. and it is central to how the program is designed to function. From the government's perspective, NHO-owned firms are not simply small businesses. They are mission-focused partners. They are built for long-term planning, disciplined compliance, and sustained performance. Across civilian and defense agencies, these firms support construction and facilities modernization, cyber security, logistics, infrastructure protection, and other mission-critical functions. The flexibility of the eight A program, including sole source contracting, allows agencies to move faster, tailor solutions to mission needs, and reduce procurement timelines, while still maintaining pricing safeguards and accountability. Sole source does not mean unchecked. Agencies must conduct market research, develop independent estimates, and ensure fair market value. In practice, this flexibility often produces better outcomes than rigid, lowest-priced competitions that can lead to delays, cost overruns, and underperformance. For Native communities, the impact is tangible and measurable. Native Hawaiians continue to face deep structural economic challenges rooted in history high housing costs income instability health disparities, and limited access to capital. The eight A program provides a practical way to address these challenges by creating jobs generating sustainable resources rather than relying on s- relying solely on public assistance. Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty four, an HOA member organizations directed more than a hundred twenty million dollars back into the Native Hawaiian community. These investments supported wildlife recovery on Maui, scholarships, internships, workforce training, healthcare access, and cultural programs. Even after an eight A business graduates from the program, the commitment to community continues because the mission does not end when eligibility does. It is important to understand that large contract values do not translate into windfall profits. Contract dollars are paid over time, after work is performed, and must first cover payroll, subcontractors, materials, insurance, and service debt. Community investments are made deliberately and responsibly, ensuring long-term stability for both the business and the beneficiaries it serves. Accountability is essential. For Native entities, compliance is not just a legal requirement. It is foundational to the credibility and long-term viability. NHOA and other Native trade organizations invest heavily in compliance, peer accountability, and proactive engagement with SBA. We welcome objective fact-based oversight that strengthens program integrity and deters abuse, without undermining the structure Congress Congress intentionally created. In closing, participation by NHOs in the A day program rests on C- Congress's constitutional authority and the political trust relationship with Native peoples, not on race-based preference. When the program works as intended, the results are clear, federal agencies receive capable, mission-ready partners, taxpayers receive value, and Native communities gain tools for genuine economic self-determination. Mission performance and community impact are not separate outcomes in the Native 8 program. They are structurally linked. Preserving the balance between accountability, flexibility and scale is what will allow the program to continue delivering t- for all stakeholders. Thank you for your leadership and for the opportunity to share an HOS perspective. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Miss Alou. Uh, Senator Mullen, you you have indicated that you'd um might not have full time. If you would like to proceed with your questions first, I'm certainly happy to defer.

That would be awesome.

Okay.

Thank you so much. Uh, first of all, again, thank you for everybody being here. My uh question is gonna be um referred mainly to uh to the chief. Uh, can you, you know, in your testimony, sir, you said that thirty percent of the income from Cherokee Nation owned businesses flow into the general fund and that's, uh, as I think you said, that's That's a Cherokee Nation law that requires that, right? Uh, does that apply to Cherokee Federal?

Uh, thank you, Senator. It does. So our statute uh specifically says thirty-seven percent. It it the the idea that I think gets suggested sometimes that the corporations least associated with Cherokee Nation I think it's true across any country are somehow disassociated with the tribe would just be mystifying to most Cherokees, because it's one and the same. So Thirty seven percent of the net profit goes into our government programs, and the result is really incredible. And so the health system that you and I grew up in, top-down, underfunded IHS, that doesn't exist at Chairganation anymore because the revenue that we could bring in to build clinics hospitals fund special programs that the United States doesn't fund uh we can do that scholarships uh we thousand five thousand kids on a scholarship right now. Why? Because that thirty seven percent goes to fund scholarships that oth otherwise we couldn't fund. Uh housing, the United States spends about the same today on native housing, frankly, that it did two decades ago. What do we do? We pass a law that says on top of that thirty seven percent, we get forty million dollars to bring to bear to build new housing. So we can solve problems because we have this revenue flow uh through uh our diversified business portfolio, federal contracting has been key to that.

You know, a example to what the chief was talking about by the health care system, we grew up going to Hastings. Uh, that's where we received dental um emergency care,

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

surgeries,

Mm-hmm.

uh vision, and I used it a lot.

Oh yeah.

And um and now that that hospital or that building's turned into a partnership with Oklahoma State

Yep.

uh to train new doctors,

Right.

specifically for rural America uh in Indian country.

Yep.

Uh, what a great partnership that that is. It's it's wonderful to me to be able to go to that building now, where I had actually a lot of bad memories from. And uh, a and to see it being used to train our next generation of of health care providers. Um, I not to put you in a bad spot, do you but do you know approximately how much money that you flow into these programs?

Well, the thirty seven percent dividend, uh, I I'm not prepared to tell you what our entire bus- just cuz I don't have it what our entire business is, But over the last decade, just federal contracting, that portion of it has put three hundred and sixty four million dollars into Cherokee Nation. So our marshals here today, just to give you one more example to illustrate, our Marshal Daniel Meade's here today, when his agency had to meet the moment from a girt and and lean in and provide public safety. Senator, I don't know what we would have done when you and I were kids, if Cherokee Nation was in that position in terms of resources. But that three hundred and sixty four million dollars just from federal contracting, some of that ten million of it went immediately into scaling up a law enforcement system. I could go up and down the spreadsheet of programs and show you how that three hundred sixty-four million over the last decade just from federal contracting has solved problems not only for Cherokees and not only for Zion school that got that school bus but countless other uh communities that are just counting on the Cherokee nation I mean rural Northeast Oklahoma would hurt incredibly bad, if suddenly contracting was uh sucked out of the uh economy.

I mean, and it's very common for the you you you know, the council members to actually, this is like one of their biggest jobs.

True.

Uh, I mean, they're able to bring funding into uh into the their district um faster than we can bring in federal funding. Uh, a prime example is the last mile going to uh going to our to to our home, our ranch, um, the school the the public schools there, Westville, got where they couldn't run their buses down. because it was so it w- it was so bad. And uh there was a public-public-private partnership and, uh or actually it was public-private-private partnership that took place because between us, Cherokee Nation, and Aderett County, we were able to repave that that last mile to be able to have the buses go down there. Now they weren't picking up our kids uh because our kids were going to different, going to Zion, but uh Westville, it it benefits as as the chief said, not just um not just Native citizens but non-Natives as well. And uh and that's one of the advantages that we have. And so and and Cherokee Nation, Chickasaws, Choctaws and all the other tribes uh that are responsible for certain counties, they do the same thing. So thank you for that testimony. Thank you, Chair, for giving me this opportunity and I've I've got to s- run. So thank you so much.

Thank you, Senator Mullen, and I I just really appreciate the perspective that you bring. uh two discussions like this with lived experiences. So we we always get great witnesses, but when when you can give real world examples that you and your family have experience,

Yep.

it's

Well I've I've only grown up in one place, and that's an Indian country. Never lived in any place else and neither have my kids.

There you go.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Right sure.

Thank you, Chair Murkowski, and thank you to all of you for your testimony. Um, Miss Alou, We all know in this room, but it's important for the record to state that there are different kinds of entities that can participate in the eight A program and it can get a little complicated so can you help us to understand what an NHO is and what the role of NHO um is in these in these eight A programs?

Um, so an NHO is a unifying organism.

I don't think it's on. The when it's red, it's on.

Got it, thank you. Um, and the NHO is a Native Hawaiian organization that is chartered in the state of Hawaii. We're a non-profit entity. And we are um chaired by individuals. Um, the Native Hawaiian organization must be controlled by Native Hawaiians. And we work, you know, side by side with our ANC partners and our um our tribal partners, uh, but we operate under different rules and and laws.

Tell me about the success of, uh, NHOs over the last few years because of A day.

Sure. So we, um, have been able to increase our presence in the, uh, federal sector and in doing so and becoming more mature, we have been able to generate, you know, significant proceeds that we've been able to invest into community organizations. Some of them which you are probably very familiar with, uh Polynesian Voyaging Society, uh Iolani Palace, Purple Maya. And these organizations help uh our community either with workforce development training, uh entrepreneurship classes, uh also with cultural preservation, uh and other educational opportunities as well.

Thank you very much. Um, so the Law requires that tribes, ANC's and NHO's report on the benefits that they provide. Um But it seems to me, in our interactions, just briefly over the last couple of days and then my staff's interaction with the NHLA over um months and years, it seems to me that the SBA's requirements are rather slender. And that you folks are actually doing a more robust reporting than than what the statute or the rules require. Can you elucidate what you're doing?

Sure. So the SBA reporting requirements uh are are very slim, um and they're they're generalized. In twenty eighteen we were asked by former Congressman Kaikele to kinda gather the statistics for our members. And so we began asking our member organizations to provide us with, you know, specific give-back information that uh we were then aggregating as an a trade organization. And we've been doing it, we've been doing it ever since.

And that's not currently requi- that level of specificity is not

I It is not re

an SBA requirement.

Correct. That is correct.

OK. I think that's sort of worthy of following up on, because to the extent that there's a desire to get more fidelity on exactly what's happening, money coming in for the contracting, money pushed out to nonprofits. I think that's a pretty valid thing to want. Um, both people who have a problem with eight A and people who believe it's doing exactly what Congress intended should want more data. But it seems to me it's on SBA to ask for the things that they are alleging do not exist, especially when you're you're kind of pushing on an open door here. All the eight As are saying, we've got it. We'd be pleased to provide it. maybe we can standardize it between, you know, the ANC's and tribal organizations and NHO's, but I don't hear anybody saying, we don't wanna give you the data. I think what we're hearing is, you never asked us for this data, but we have it. Is that fair to say?

That is fair to say, and I think any NHO would be happy to provide more data if they were asked for it.

Um, final question, um. Um, ca- can you provide the committee with a um summary of both the economic benefits side and the sort of uh non-profit benefits side of of what you've been doing over over the say the last five years. And you know, I I think what we need to do here is to lean into the premise that Congress established this program, it is scaling up, it is a um successful program, but like any government contracting program, you need to make sure that the audit function, pre and post, that oversight, that procurement is as tight as possible. Um and so to me this is a high quality problem to have. If no one were participating then the law would um maybe not be functioning. But now we've got a bunch of people who are doing a bunch of very important things in their native communities, and the more data that the committee can have, and the more data that the American taxpayer has, that this is worth it to them, um, then I think this program, um, can grow and survive for another, several generations. Thank you.

Well, and thank you, Senator Schatz, for that, because I think that's one of the reasons that we're having this hearing today, because of what Uh, some of these misconceptions are out there. Um, we're we're seeing this heightened scrutiny, uh, the the public attention, the media attention to the eight A program. And again, I think that there's just a lot of misconception out there about how it really works, but also, um, understanding, uh, not only the program's statutory purpose, um, but, as you point out, the accountability measures that are required in law and that are then uh additive based on on on the determinations that you you are making. Um but the the effort to create a solid record here is really important today. And so you all have provided, in my view, exceptionally strong testimony. I appreciate that. Um and if if I ask some questions that you think are repetitive because you've stated it a little bit it's just because I think we need to enunciate an underscore. And so I wanna focus my questions on on the things that I want to come from from this committee, and that is a focus on the community benefits, a focus on on the compliance um aspect of it. And uh and so let me let me just speak about the or ask about the community benefits first and I think that the exchange that we just saw with the chief and and Senator, uh Mullen was very instructive. uh, as it relates to the Cherokee Eighty program and and some of the very local, um, like, like, uh, getting a new bus to, uh, efforts on law enforcement, housing, um, health care. These are substantive, these are real, these are meaningful, and they are making a difference just as as the law, just as the, the, the, uh, uh, the obligation that we have under the Federal Trust responsibility, uh, requires. So I think we we saw some real substantive um uh examples there. I think for the ANC's it's a little bit different uh with ANCSA uh and this model uh of self-determination. So I'm gonna turn to you uh Catherine about um just talk real briefly, if you will, about the ANCSA um framework, how it ties in with the eight A program and the importance of of eight A to the to the sharel shareholders.

Sure. Thank you, Senator. Um, so, ICSA, or the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, was enacted by Congress in nineteen seventy-one, and Congress wanted to do a different system than the reservation system down in the lower forty-eight to settle settle the land claims of the Alaska Native people. For-profit corporations were set up and charged with advancing the sos- social, cultural and economic well-being of our shareholders, of our Alaska Native people. However, the missing piece from this structure was the economic engine, and the eight program filled this gap. Um, it's allowed us to build businesses, generate revenue, and compete in the federal marketplace. This revenue is what makes our benefits possible and it's what, um, turns economic opportunity into lasting benefits for our shareholders.

So, um, m- Ms. Watson, you've got some, um, uh, long-term and, and perhaps unique um, experiences within the eight eight program and, and ensuring uh community benefits. Can you talk a little bit about um what the eight eight program and and BBNC's partic- participation has meant to you? Uh, you, you note that you um were, were raised, born and raised in a very small uh community down in, in, in Perryville. Um, uh, you obviously had an op- opportunity to go out and um get education beyond Paraville, beyond the region. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit if you would.

Thank you. So my presence here today is the symbol of the real impact of the eight A program and BBNC's participation in it. As a shareholder, many of the opportunities I've had throughout my life are directly tied to the economic capacity this program helps create. In addition to receiving quarterly dividends, I have benefited from resume assistance and career development resources. I participated in a one-year on-the-job training program and later completed BBNC's two-year management development program training without walls, which played a meaningful role in preparing me for leadership responsibilities. I am also a scholarship recipient and I'm currently pursuing my third degree. The impact extends beyond me. My daughter is also a scholarship recipient and is currently a senior completing her bachelor's degree. She participated in BBNC's young adult culture camp. My niece, who is also a scholarship recipient, earned her two bachelor's degrees from Brown University, her and her master's degree from University of Michigan, where she currently is pursuing her PHD. And during one of her summer breaks, she participated in BBNC's internship program. And when she transitioned from Brown to Michigan, she also received emergency funding to help support that move. I would al- I would be remiss if I did not mention my son, who joined the United States Marine Corps. He was able to use his BBNC dividends that he saved toward the payment on his first house that he should be closing on this week. These are just a few examples that I know personally that impact m- not only myself but my family members. of direct outcomes resulting from sustained responsible participation in the eight A program, where BBNC intentionally reinvested in its shareholders and the community. The program connects economic development to long-term self-determination and creates opportunities that extend across generations well into the future.

And I love the the very specific and very personal example, in your family of multi-generations that have benefited through, through the scholarship opportunities. And, and thank you for your son's service and, and your family as you, you uh support him. Um, and I really appreciate what you have shared about one example, um being the mobile uh DMV, Department of Motor Vehicles. Uh most people would not think that that's any kind of a big deal, but when you are in a community that is not connected by, by roads to, to other places. I think you said it was sixteen hundred dollars um to get yourself from Perryville to to Anchorage uh where you you might be going to get your real ID. Uh if people can't get their ID, if they can't get their a a driver's license, their opportunities um for travel, for health care, for for uh work opportunities are limited. So it may seem like a simple thing, it's kinda like the bus bus uh uh purchase um but it means real value, real differences to people in their communities. Senator Cortes Mesto.

Thank you. First of all, let me just say um thank you to the chairwoman ranking member for having this hearing. I I think it it is so important and to the panelists for participating uh uh and uh uh we have watched over the past year the small business administration and other agencies have launched audits requested unprecedented access to company data made sweeping suspensions of eight A participating companies. Now, I fully, fully agree that to the extent there is fraud or waste, we should be cleaning that up and protecting taxpayer dollars. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. I am worried however about the aggressive and abrupt changes that this administration is taking which will chill legitimate tribal businesses' participation in the program to the extent that fraud in the eight A program is an issue, it would be a better approach to allow the SBA Inspector General to conduct the investigation rather than this half hazard suspending thousands of companies from the program um that we have seen this administration. And uh that's why I so appreciate the conversation today about the importance and the positive impacts of the eight A program and what it has brought to our tribal communities and communities Native communities across um the country. And thank you for talking about it. Because this is one example where we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? This is where we still provide relief and support. Um, I I listen, let me just say, in Nevada we have nearly two thousand Native American owned firms. Um, and the eight eight program creates many good paying jobs. It supports small business success and expands economic opportunity where it is needed most. I'm curious uh if any of you can address Um, in what ways does the federal government benefit by delivering contracting awards through this program? I'm curious if any of you've thought about that in any way and can talk to that. Chief?

W- well, Senator, I can just say that our federal contracting arm, Cherokee Federal, uh, is a excellent deliverer of services to the United States. A- and and we built capacity over the years.

Yes.

So for the United States to have more capacity across the country is inherently a a good thing. We are looked at as uh uh an entity that can deliver for war fighters in the the front lines. Uh, you know, we're currently working uh with the Department of Defense on front-line military uh support, but also things that uh the United States uh needs to focus on and does focus on, which is to support war fighters. So we may be operating uh uh on the same day uh for uh support of missile defense systems, uh but we're also working to make sure women, infant and children programs are delivered to military families. Uh and that only comes from building capacity. Generations ago, Cherokee Nation began its federal contracting journey through a little company called Cherokee Nation Industries and the little community of Stilwell. And today, thousands and thousands of employees around the globe were ready to move. We're nimble. We've proven it. The United States needs more of that, not less of it. And they'll have less of it if what we're hearing through this rhetoric continues because it's had a chilling effect. I mean, right now, We've got uh our folks at Cherokee Federal talking to contracting officers, having to ask questions about whether we're under investigation, whether there's some fraud afoot. We oughta be talking about how effective we are, how we can solve problems. We've got a demonstrated record of solving problems again across that broad range of delivery. And so I just think we've made the nation stronger as a result of us increasing capacity.

Thank you, Chief. Anyone else? on that subject because I I think that's absolutely right. Uh, there are so many benefits here that this administration is not taking into account, and I really appreciate your comments. Um, uh, I think all of us do on the panel. I I'm gonna I know I have a little bit of time left, but I'm gonna yield that time. I think the the um the comments that you have all made, the benefits of the program, the fact that uh we are seeing a generation of business owners and entrepreneurs in Native communities, not now but also for the future, it matters. And it is a benefit not just to communities, but to the federal government as well. Uh, so thank you.

Thank you, Senator, Senator Daines.

Chair Murkowski, thank you. Uh, the Small Business Administration's A A Business Development Program has helped tribally operated businesses in Montana grow and develop to serve their communities. Without a significant tax base, tribes are forced to find creative ways to generate revenue to fund important government functions in social services, or they can be completely dependent on federal funding. Tribally owned entities in Montana, give me a couple examples, S and K Technologies, Buffalo Horse Incorporated. They utilize training and opportunities through the eight A program. to enhance self-determination and create long-term economic sustainability for the tribes. And by participating in the program, these two companies have matured into competitive international enterprises that assist the federal government in crucial security, intelligence, support, and technology services. Their proceeds are distributed directly to the tribe's general fund to fund health care education, infrastructure development, resource management, housing, and other essential services. Both of these companies will tell you that they are welcome oversight and they wanna see more oversight and they condemn any and all instances of fraud. They are good faith actors with a proven and impressive record over several years in the program the value of the eight A program is that it is driven by outcomes, trusted, reliable partners who can deliver valuable services and balance the complex compliance requirements, they can streamline the procurement process. They can deliver services faster and continue growth. This leads to my first question for uh Miss Carlton. Could you explain why eight A contracting is an effective enterprise for rural tribes in Montana? most everything is rural. I know Chairman's state like Alaska about everything is rural, uh or in the High Line in Montana which is rural with a capital R. Um, I would love to get uh your thoughts on that.

Sure, thank you for the question. Um, so there is limited economic opportunity in our rural communities that exist within the Chugach region. Um, yet our shareholders often want to stay where they are born, and they wanna continue with their subsistence way of life. And so I think um i the eight A program helps in three ways. Um we are able to use our earnings to pay dividends back to those shareholders, which helps um in influx uh cash into the villages. And then we also have created workforce um development options for remote work for some of those shareholders, so they can stay in their villages and and work for our corporation. And then third um we have been working on creating economic development opportunities in these communities. Um, for instance, in Valdez, Alaska, we developed a workforce housing um building there, which now h- employs uh people and also helps with the shortage of housing.

Thank you for those examples. Um, wanna pivot now to uh Principal Chief Hoskin. Could you share what the eight A program has meant for the Cherokee Nation?

Well, it's been, it's been transformational, Senator. I, I mean, before Cherokee Nation availed itself of the eight A program and scaled up what is really an impressive and an effective partner for the United States as far as being a federal contractor. My predecessors and other tribal leaders could not find the revenue to fill gaps that existed then and still exist. Federal appropriations are not what we would all like them to be in terms of meeting healthcare needs, housing needs, the best investment that we could ever make, which is education. Those things are gaps that are unfilled without revenue to the tribe. And so because of the way our businesses are set up under tribal statute to deliver a minimum of thirty-seven percent of net profit, back to tribal coffers so that we can invest in all of these things, it's changing lives. I mean, we can have the largest housing investment in the history of the Cherokee Nation solely because we've got this business portfolio that's diversified, generating revenue. We have jo- I mean, my grandfather would be in amazed that I could say that we have fourteen thousand employees around the world, thousands and thousands of them work directly for these companies that are delivering for the United States. Health care, we've gone from a system of top-down, underfunded, IHS, programs to bottom up Cherokee Nation driven. A system of world class wellness is where we're heading. Why? Because we have the revenue to build hospitals, clinics, schools for nursing, schools for physicians, jobs, recruitment, young Cherokees can see what they can be, but we can make it happen because of those dollars coming in. I could go on and on, Senator, but it's really been transformational from language preservation to economic development it's just changed the landscape and the future of the Cherokee Nation.

I think you just cut a TV commercial for the eight A program right there. So Chair McCoussey, thank you.

Thank you, Senator Daines. Appreciate that. Um uh you all have have I think really helped build the record in terms of of benefits. I wanna I want to just um Uh, comment just a moment, Ms. Carlton, you, you mentioned that one of the benefits is, is cash into the villages. That sounds great. Like, I'm gonna get boatloads of cash, right? What am I gonna do with it? I'm gonna go to Hawaii. No. Can you please share with the committee and Ms. Watson What? Oh.

Not that there's anything wrong with it.

Not that there's anything wrong with going to Hawaii. Um Actually, my husband's just coming back from Hawaii this morning. Um, it's cold back home. But, but the reality is, is the village, many of the villages uh for your shareholders are extraordinarily expensive to live. You've just mentioned Miss Perryville, sixteen hundred dollars to get from Perryville to Anchorage. Um, uh, one of my uh little cheat sheets that I carry around with me in um, in the community of Napakioch, um, uh, a, a four by eight sheet of plywood, a regular grade is a hundred and forty dollars. Uh, a two by four is, uh, seventeen bucks. You could get it for two ninety nine if you, uh, are, are going to Home Depot. And so, when we say cash into the village, it is helping to offset the extraordinarily high cost of living, everything from food to materials, to to air transportation. This is not lining people's pockets, um, in a way that, uh, some would say is is excessive there. Um, I I wanted to I I wanted to just Oh, wait. I jumped ahead of you. I'm sorry.

No, no, go.

Okay.

Yes, please.

I just realized Senator Daines was the last questioner and I'm supposed to defer now to you.

No, but you're right.

Okay.

Yeah.

See, see how this works, we're very compatible except when I say, " Don't go to Hawaii." Um, w- we, we've talked a lot about the, the, the benefit side. I thank you for that. Um, I also recognize that sometimes, sometimes, um, uh, questions arise when community members, um, might not support the benefits provided by the ANC's, the, the, NHO or the tribes. um, or the lines of business that the entities are are pursuing. But this is really what self-determination is is all about, right? Is this is, this is the, um, this is the opportunity, uh, or the advantage of of internal oversight mechanisms that allow community members to raise concerns, um, help influence the decision, but those are decisions that are made. Um, and I think, I think you had, um, uh, mention some of the internal governance structures that you have, uh, Ms. uh, Alou, uh, with regards to the native, um, uh, NHO. Um, anything further to that point that you would add, uh, Catherine or Polly, in terms of internal gu- governance structures to, that provide oversight for the tribes, um, for the ANC's?

I would just add that, um, You know, we are a mature organization for government contracting and so we have built up a compliance department within Chugach um that contains um compliance legal and um as well as uh um as well as um uh ethics offices and so this all allows us to make sure that we monitor regularly our requirements and insure adherence to our policies.

Okay. So, so let's speak a little bit more about the compliance side. Um, first of all, is there anybody on the panel here who does not think that we have an obligation, uh, not only from an oversight perspective, but that you all have an obligation to ensure that there is no fraud, waste, or abuse within your system? Does anybody disagree that that's not a responsibility? Okay, so we're all clear. We're not afraid of of of compliance. We're not as and we're not afraid um or concerned about uh the transparency, the accountability that comes with with these opportunities. I'm seeing head nods. We all agree. Okay. Um so ma ma several of you have mentioned the um the the the concern that there's a mischaracterization that when you use terms like set aside or sole source um no bid um that somehow or other these are the quote fra fraud magnets that we've we've seen um uh kicked around I think you um mentioned, Miss Alou, that sole source does not mean unchecked. And I think this is really important to to to recognize this. Um uh Some seem to to think that somehow or other, eight A contracts are really easy, easy to get. You can somehow or other game the system through subcontracting out the work, uh, in a sole source or a set-aside contract. Um, uh, Ms. Watson, why don't you speak to that in terms of what goes into bidding for a set-aside contract? Uh, and and then what happens, what happens if a f- if a contractor fails to live up um, or to perform to the standards that are set out there. What happens?

Uh, thank you for the question. So, BBNC's subsidiaries are independently managed and are responsible for their own contracting, activity, performance, and compliance. Compliance is a part of BBNC and its subsidiaries' culture and ethos. The term " sole source" can be misleading. Most eight-day awards, whether competitive or sole source, requires a rigorous and documented evaluation process. For competitive eight A set-aside contracts, firm must respond to a solicitation just as they would for any other federal contract. This includes submitting a detailed technical proposal, past performance documentation, management and staffing plans, and a cost price proposal for evaluation. Even for eight A sole source awards, this process is not automatic. Contractors are typically required to provide capability statements, participate in capabilities briefings with the agency, submit detailed technical and pricing proposals down to the penny, and engage in line-by-line price negotiations. Contracting officers must make formal determinations that the firm is qualified, that the price is fair and reasonable, and that the award is in the government's best interest. SBA must also approve the firm and the award under its program rules. So what happens if a contractor fails to perform? The federal contractors include strict performance standards and enforced mechanisms. If a contractor fails to meet contractual requirements, the government has multiple remedies to available. These may include issuances of cure or show cause notices, withholding of payments, negative performance evaluations in the contractor performance assessment reporting system, CPARS, termination for default slash cause or convenience, and in serious cases suspension or debarment. For eight A firms, performance failures can also trigger SBA review and potential program consequences, including heightened oversight or removal from the program. From BBNC's perspective, compliance failures may also result internal corrective action leadership changes or other government responses to protect the integrity of the enterprise. Thank you for the question.

So it's it's it's it's pretty clear that this is not some some easy sweet heart deal that you just kinda walk into and you don't have to to to perform. There are are consequences. Um, uh we've we've heard um of of the benefits that the program brings to the federal government and I think that that also is worth reinforcing and repeating. Um, because the federal government is getting good value. The federal government doesn't have to come back to to the eight A contractor. Um, uh, they they do it because they're getting good value and uh the performance is good. So I I I I wanna ask ab about that and um Uh, I also want to include into the record some statements that were collected by, uh, Senator Sullivan from DOD officials about the benefits to the federal government of the eight A program. He he kinda drilled everybody, got statements for the record, and I want to incorporate that as part of of our record today. But, um, uh, I think probably all of you, uh, in preparation for for this hearing um, have have compiled examples of of, um, feedback that you've received from contracting officers for your work. Would any of you care to share that? We we will make all of it available for the record, but if you just wanna give a few examples, I think that that helps us here. Pauly, do you wanna start?

Yes, thank you, Chairman Murkowski. Um, yes, so we ha we when this request came to us we immediately jumped on it, and it was so amazing to see how fast and flexible not only the folks that are we employee to gather this data, but they also reached out to the agencies to provide examples as well. And those are the types of examples that we handed over to Sullivan's office, um, and one of the questions we asked the folks who provided those examples um said, could we use your name, and they said absolutely, please do,

Good.

because we appreciate the value that you bring to us, the flexibility, the speed, and the reliability uh to these agencies.

Anybody else want to to share any examples? And again, if you don't have them right now, we will we'll we'll incorporate them, because I I I do think I do think it's important to um to reinforce the value that the the government uh gets from from those that are associated. Uh, Senator Cortes-Masto, did you have any um follow-on questions that you wanted to to add for the committee?

No, I I'm fine with it.

Okay. Senator Schatz?

Just one final comment. It it it um and and it's it's following up on something uh you said, Chair. Um, these federal agencies have full discretion to give a contract or not give a contract and one of the things that's this was maybe ten years ago, that I was learning, when I was learning about this program is, if you talk to Department of Defense people who are in the procurement space, they find the flexibility that eight As provide to be extremely useful. And a lot of their frustration is they're always dealing with these giant primes. And they don't love it. And it's IDIQ and it's endlessly expensive and you're sort of trying to move an aircraft carrier when you need something much more nimble than that. And so I think the the m the most essential point, besides that we should get more data, and that we should codify the collection of that data, either through rule or law, I'm fine with that. But the most essential point is that agencies have a choice whether or not they're going to contract with eight As. And they keep doing it, not because they're reviewing the old statute and worried about you think the Office of Naval well, you know, trust and treaty responsibilities. They're doing it because it's the best deal for their needs. And I, I don't want that to get lost here.

Thank you for, for reinforcing that. I've got one, just one final question, and um uh this is, this is probably a question to, directed to you either, Miss Watson or Miss Carlton, but can you walk uh uh uh s us through why an eight A firm uh might want a subcontract out a portion of of the work and and how eight A firms might work with the contracting officers to ensure that they're all following the the subcontracting limitations cuz that also is something that we have seen in some of the correspondence coming from the agencies is that somehow rather this is an FRA's deal.

Thank you. So subcontracting is the normal part of federal contracting, including within the eight A program. Firms may subcontract specialized portions of work to ex excess expertise, manage surge capacity, meet ge- geographic and technical requirements, or reduce execution risk, particularly on complex contracts. However, eight A firms are required to comply with strict limitations on subcontracting. These rules ensure that the eight A participant performs the required percentage of work and maintains control over contract execution. To ensure compliance, eight A firms work closely with the contracting officers and SBA. The this includes clearly defining work share in proposals, tracking labor and cost allocations during performance, maintaining compliant teaming and subcontracting agreements and documenting performance metrics. Contracting officers and SBA may request periodic reporting, conduct audits or review performance data to verify compliance through the life of the contract. This is in addition to annual reporting to SBA on this very subject. Thank you.

Uh, thank you for that. And uh, again, I think we've we've had uh good testimony. I think some of the questions from members have have helped to um to to draw out uh a little bit more by way of example. Um, I don't have any any um assumption that just because we've held this oversight hearing that now everybody gets it. uh, that the folks over at SBA and the Department of Defense were watching this hearing and saying, " Okay, don't need to, to do anything more." We still have, I think we still have much more work to do on the education, um, front and, um, your leadership in, in, in doing this and, and those, uh, that have joined us in the hearing room and are watching online, uh, you also have a job to do because, again, I think we started off the hearing by saying there's been some mischaracterizations. And that needs to be clarified. It needs to be understood. But I think just just the uh example of this small hearing room and the fact that we're standing room only uh, it demonstrates to me how significant it is for ANC's, NHOs, um, uh, tribes across the country. This is significant. And again, it is. And I I think it was you, Chief, uh, that that said it's the modern extension of sovereign to sovereign relationships. And so how we are able to better convey, better share, and better demonstrate the benefits, um, not only to, uh, to, to, to, to, to Native people under the eight A program, the benefits to our country, um, but again, the, the fulfillment of a federal trust responsibility, um, and the fulfillment of promises under ANCSA. Uh, this is what the eight eight program is all about. So thank you for for um such good testimony, but we've got work that must continue. So with that, the committee sta uh we will continue to take uh questions for the record for a couple weeks. Um we'll hold that uh hearing record open, but thank you all for being here.