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Senate · Hearing transcript

Hearings to examine fraud in Minnesota.

Tuesday, February 10, 2026

Summary

  • Sen. Cornyn announced he will introduce the Stop Somali Cash Fraud Act requiring non-citizens carrying over $10,000 to disclose cash sources 72 hours in advance.

  • David J. Bier (Director of Immigration Studies, Cato Institute) testified non-citizens account for five percent of welfare fraud losses, thirty-one percent less per capita than citizens.

  • Sen. Kennedy pressed Bier on his claim DHS collected fees from 300,000 applicants without adjudication, and Bier blamed USCIS Director Joseph Edlow for the pause.

  • Sen. Britt (R-AL) demanded tougher vetting and ending sanctuary cities while Sen. Durbin (D-IL) condemned the hearing as demonizing refugees and ignoring civil rights abuses.

  • Sen. Cornyn left the record open for one week for additional questions as DOJ continues fraud investigations in Minnesota and other states.

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Transcript

21:40 – 34:17

Good afternoon. Thank you for all the witnesses for being here. The the uh title of this hearing is Somali Fraud in Minnesota, the tip of the iceberg. When the news broke about the level of child care service fraud in by Somali nationals in Minnesota, the American people were rightly shocked and outraged. The loss to the federal government, meaning the loss to American taxpayers, is estimated to be at nine billion dollars or more. That estimate only covers what the US government has discovered in one state, the state of Minnesota. There are also credible allegations that the Minnesota government knew about the fraud as early as two thousand and eleven, and that Governor Walz and Mayor Fry not only were aware of the fraud as early as twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen, but did nothing to stop it. Some of the individuals involved in the recent Minnesota fraud scandal were US citizens of Somali descent, but there were also some Somali nationals who were not US citizens. To date, the US Department of Justice has charged ninety-eight defendants in the Minnesota fraud rel- in in Minnesota fraud-related cases, eighty-five of whom are of Somali descent. So ninety-eight have been charged, eighty-five are of Somali descent. Sixty-four have been convicted. The Department of Justice has also issued more than one thousand seven hundred and fifty subpoenas, executed more than one hundred and thirty search warrants and conducted more than one thousand witness interviews. Sadly, as soon as the magnitude of the fraud was identified and amplified by an independent investigator, following an appropriate surge of DHS immigration resources into Minnesota, the mainstream media and the radical left immediately began to call the US government's actions racist. Claiming that the Trump administration was unlawfully targeting Somali nationals. Not surprisingly, the ACLU rushed out to sue the Trump administration for simply enforcing the immigration laws as written. But fraud is fraud. And this recent episode, unfortunately, appears to be just the tip of the iceberg. I expect to hear more as the Department of Justice continues its investigations into fraud not only in Minnesota but also in states like California. Recently, the Government Accountability Office estimated that the federal government loses between two hundred and thirty-three billion and five hundred and twenty-one billion annually due to fraud and improper payments. Let me say that again. Two hundred and thirty-three billion to five hundred and twenty-one billion is lost every year y- year due to fraud or and improper payments of federal benefits and other public funds. Our national debt has surpassed thirty-eight trillion dollars and continues to climb. If the United States could recoup these hundreds of billions of dollars lost to fraud every year, we might actually have some hope of getting our fiscal situation on a sustainable trajectory. I imagine that the one in four American households who live paycheck to paycheck would love to have even a fraction of that money to pay down their bills, to buy groceries and even treat their family to a dinner or a movie. Now, eliminating fraud is more than just a matter of fiscal solvency. It also directly affects the safety and security of American citizens. Much of the fraud is committed by aliens, many of them criminal aliens, and we don't know what they're doing with those stolen funds. In two thousand and twenty-three, the Federation of American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, estimated that Medicaid lost approximately eight billion dollars in funding annually due to fraud attributable to illegal aliens. Similarly, FAIR estimated that the illegal aliens have obtained more than three billion dollars in earned income tax credits with the average filer receiving more than four thousand dollars over the last two years seven hundred million dollars in cash largely tied to Somali couriers, has been flown out of the Minneapolis airport via suitcase, according to DHS officials. DHS officials say this cash transfer has been occurring for close to a decade, but the practice has increased in recent years. There are two major problems with this type of large cash transfer. First, we don't know whether what this whether the source of this cash is from any federal, state or local benefit program. And second, the money could be used to fund Somali terrorist organizations like Al Shabaab. Taking cash out of the country is not necessarily illegal. Any individual departing the country with more than ten thousand dollars in cash must file a customs declaration form about the amount of cash before they take off. The Somali couriers are in fact legally declaring the cash they're taking out of the country, ironically. From a fraud and national security perspective, the current customs form is not expansive enough to disclose the source of the cash these couriers are taking out of the country or the ultimate recipient of the cash. Later this week, I plan to introduce a bill to address this issue. This bill, called the Stop Somali Currency Airport Smuggling through Hawala's Cash Fraud Act, or Stop Somali Cash Fraud Act will strengthen the customs form for non-citizens only who are taking more than ten thousand dollars in cash out of the country. This bill will require disclosure of whether the cash is from any federal, state or local government contract or benefit, additional background information on the individual transporting the cash and additional background information on the ultimate recipient. of the cash. More importantly, most importantly, it will require filing the customs form seventy-two hours in advance, which will give Customs and Border Protection more time to fully vet the form before allowing non-citizens to leave the country with suitcases full of cash. In addition to those smuggling money out of the country to potentially supporting terrorists, those who commit fraud while staying in the country also pose a threat. President Trump's team at the White House has uncovered numerous examples of illegal aliens arrested for crimes who've also been receiving Medicaid. These individuals have been arrested for a variety of crimes, ranging from child abuse to domestic battery to burglary to murder. During deliberations for the working family tax cuts, which strengthened guardrails against illegal aliens receiving Medicaid, Democrats repeatedly assured Republicans that illegal aliens are already ineligible for Medicaid and that we are simply barking up the wrong tree. But I'm grateful to President Trump and his team for showing the American people the truth about what is actually happening. Fraud takes many different forms, but the harm to Americans is real. and can even have life-threatening consequences. A quick internet search will reveal numerous instances of foreign nationals who've been convicted for fraud, everything from wire fraud, manufacturing and selling f- selling counterfeit documents, fraudulently obtaining mass numbers of H two B visas, and much more. None of these crimes are victimless. Consider the damage done to countless US citizens whose identities are stolen. According to one report, over nineteen billion dollars is lost to identity theft annually. And many of the individuals who've been defrauded have to spend their own hard-earned money and countless hours and headaches to fix a mess that came about through no fault of their own. Which brings me to another point. I'd like to remind the public of something that's hardly ever reported on by the mainstream media. Too often we hear that ICE and CBP are arresting who supposedly have no criminal record. But the fact that an alien has no criminal record, that is, has never been arrested, charged or convicted, doesn't mean that this individual has not broken the law. Consider what it takes an illegal alien to continue living in the United States, not to mention the fact that entering the country without authorization is a crime. To work, an illegal alien has to obtain some sort of identity document. In many instances, the identity documents are fraudulent or altered documents of real US citizens, and the alien has assumed that person's identity. Stealing a US citizen's identity or social security number is a crime. But that isn't where the criminal activity stops. Once an alien has acquired a false identification, how would this person commute to work every day? Often by driving without a license, also a crime in most jurisdictions, or driving without insurance, also likely a crime. Whether someone entered the country illegally or overstayed a visa, there are certainly crimes that all aliens have committed against our immigration laws, even though they may not have yet been caught and the offenses may seem minor. But nay, make no mistake, criminal aliens not only prey on but they also prey on their own people, stealing the identities of other aliens lawfully in the United States to stay in the United States, work illegally or in some instances just defraud the US government. So what can we do about it? What can Congress, what can the government do about it? First, we can begin by prioritizing thoroughness of security vetting. rather than speed with the sp- rather than speed and efficiency like the Biden administration did as they waived hundreds of thousands even millions of people into the country during the four years of the Biden administration without adequate vetting. We can invest in fraud prevention and detection mechanisms that will allow federal, state and local government agencies to quickly identify those who are attempting to fraud. We can also require agencies to require biometric identification and verify the each alien's identity before the they may be granted any federal, state, or local public benefit loan or grant. Furthermore, we can require automated and recurrent identif- verification, random audits, and in-person identity verification for all federal and state programs that provide funds for public services or programs. Finally, one thing I find surprising is that the American citizens in blue and red states are not demanding more accountability for the millions of Americans who've been defrauded. It seems that they are more interested in going out on the street to actively protest against federal law enforcement officers, who are not only doing the job they've been sworn to do, but enforcing the laws Congress has passed. It is our responsibility as a U. S. government to protect the American people. It's also our duty to protect the American people and preserve the integrity of our republic. If we fail in those duties, we won't have a country any longer. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses, and I'll yield to my friend, Senator Padilla, for his opening statement.

34:19 – 37:02

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you for uh everybody who is here today. Uh, unfortunately now for the second week in a row, to allegedly talk about fraud cases in the state of Minnesota. The majority has titled this hearing, quote, " the tip of the iceberg", a clear nod to one of the majority witnesses' articles. So let me be clear from the outset. First, fraud of any kind is wrong. And second, no one is here to defend fraud. When fraud occurs, it should be investigated thoroughly. And the people responsible should be held accountable, just as the law requires. We all agree on that. And that's what's happening. In fact, it's happening in Minnesota. Many of the cases being referenced have thoroughly been investigated by the Department of Justice dating back to twenty twenty two, under the Biden administration. More than ninety arrests have been made. Uh, updated numbers that you shared, Mr. Chairman. Ninety-eight defendants have been charged. Prosecutions are ongoing and the people at fault are being held accountable. Mr. Chairman, you're citing that sixty-four people have been convicted. Fraud indeed has occurred under both Republican and Democratic administrations. For decades, agencies responsible for reviewing immigration and visa applications have had systems in place to detect and to address it. The Immigration and Nationality Act includes strict penalties for fraud along with criminal enforcement mechanisms that are being used. This is current law, existing law, existing law in practice, existing law being applied. So the real question is, what's this hearing really about? It's about something far too familiar and far more troubling. It's about choosing to point to a few isolated incidents and using them to cast suspicion on entire communities. We've seen this far too often throughout American history. using isolated criminal cases as a pretext to paint entire immigrant communities with the broadest and most damaging brush possible. It's an old playbook.

37:02 – 37:03

Well, this is something we would like to do.

37:03 – 43:04

And it's a shameful one. We've seen it with Irish immigrants and the "no Irish need apply" signs in the windows of businesses. Italian immigrants suffered the same. You remember the Chinese Exclusion Act. Again and again, immigrants have been scapegoated for society's problems whenever it's been politically convenient. Today, the target is Somali Americans, lawfully admitted refugees and US citizens and more broadly, anyone whose application was approved under a president that this administration does not like. Republicans wanna take specific, well-documented cases, and again, cases that are already being investigated and prosecuted and stretch them into a narrative of widespread abuse by immigrant communities more broadly. And we know where this leads. It becomes justification for targeting and expelling entire communities. Something that I'm not speculating about. It's happening in real time. Just yesterday we learned that the asylum cases of hundreds of Somali immigrants in Minnesota Illinois and Nebraska were suddenly rescheduled or recategorized, accelerated by months and in some cases years to be heard by the end of next month. Why? to target a specific ethnic group and place them on a fast track to deportation without meaningful due process. But that narrative simply does not hold up against the facts, because the evidence tells a different story. Study after study shows that immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the United States. One analysis from the American Immigration Council found that undocumented immigrants specifically are about half as likely to be arrested for violent crimes and property crimes. Another from the Cato Institute found that immigrants overall are thirty-three percent less likely to be incarcerated than US-born individuals. And if we look specifically at fraud, the very subject of this hearing, the numbers are even clearer. According to United States Sentencing Commission, non-citizens were responsible for just a little over six percent of benefit fraud convictions in twenty twenty four. These aren't anecdotes, folks. This is verifiable data. And the economic data is just as clear. Far from bringing a drain on our economy, immigrants are among its strongest contributors. So if we're not engaging honestly with these facts, then this hearing is not honestly about rooting out fraud. It seems to me that this hearing is really about demonizing immigrants, especially immigrants of color, an advancing a narrative that does not hold up to scrutiny. If this committee truly wanted to have a serious conversation about fraud, there are far more pressing concerns about fraud that we could and should be examining. We should be talking about how this administration is actively weakening the systems designed to detect and deter fraud, hollowing out enforcement agencies, undermining consumer protections, Accepting financial investments and gifts from foreign entities. Stripping resources from those charged with going after real wrongdoers, including inspectors general. And most glaringly, the President continually pardoning wealthy individuals who have been convicted of massive fraud, and cancelling the restitution to victims. Why is it that At the same time immigrants are being targeted for mass deportation, the president unveiled a million dollar gold card, closing the door on doctors, engineers and teachers while opening it to the highest bidders, with little scrutiny. Mr. Chairman, you talked about the uh bill you're planning to introduce in a few days, uh demanding uh where the money comes from and where the money is going. I hope you're calling on that same disclosure for all Gold Card applicants. Where is their money coming from? But this Gold Card proposal? That's what systemic fraud looks like. Fraud that this committee under this majority refuses to examine. Instead, they're seeking to perpetuate a tired myth that all immigrants bring crime with them, when they come to this country despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. So let's be honest about what this hearing is and what it is not. This hearing is not about facts, it's not about accountability, and it's not about protecting taxpayers. It is about fear. It is about scapegoating. It is about demonizing immigrants for political gain. And that may make for a convenient talking point, but it's wrong. And it does not make for responsible governance, or policy making. Mister Chairman, it's certainly not what the American people expect or deserve from the United States Senate.

43:06 – 46:49

Now I'll introduce the majority witnesses and turn to uh Senator Padilla to introduce the minority witnesses and then we'll administer the oath. Rebecca Gambler is Chief Quality Officer and Managing Director of Audit Policy and Quality Assurance at the Government Accountability Office. Miss Gambler currently serves Uh, in that capacity, she's previous ser- previously served as a Director in GAO's Homeland Security and Justice team, where she's led GAO's work on border security, immigration and election issues. She joined GAO in two thousand two and has worked on a wide range of issues related to homeland and justice. She has a master's degree in national security and strategic studies from the US Naval War College. A Master's Degree in International Relations from Syracuse University, and a Master's Degree in Political Science from the University of Toronto. She has a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science from Messiah College. Simon Hankinson is Senior Research Fellow in the Board of Security and Immigration Center at the Heritage Foundation. Mister Hankinson recently testified before this committee on President Biden's parole program and the vetting or LACA vetting of Vec- Afghan nationals. He served as a foreign service officer from nineteen ninety nine to twenty twenty two in India, Fiji, Ghana, Slovakia, Togo, Washington, DC, Marseille and Nairobi. Prior to his work as a foreign service officer, mister Hankinson worked as a lawyer in London and then taught history, English and drama at a private school in Miami. He holds a master's degree in modern history from St. Andrews, Scotland, a degree from the College of Law in London, and a master's degree in international security affairs from the National Defense University in Washington DC. Philip Linderman with the Center for Immigration Studies and the Ben Franklin Fellowship. Mister Lindeman is a retired State Department Foreign Service Officer as well. Over a three decade career, he served abroad in U. S. Embassy and consulates in Belgium, Mexico, Ecuador, Germany, Cuba, Chile, and Trinidad. He also represented US interests at the Organization of American States and the EU. Mister Linderman's diplomatic duties all often focused on internat- international travel security and protecting national borders. He collaborated with friendly foreign governments and worked with US law enforcement and intelligence agencies on visa and passport fraud. human trafficking, and terrorist travel and watch listing. Matt O'Brien is the Deputy Executive Director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform. He's responsible for overseeing FAIR's investigation, legislation and education activities. Previously, Mister O'Brien served as the Director of Research at FAIR and as the Director of Investigation at FAIR's affiliate, the Immigration Reform Law. Institute. Mister O'Brien has three decades of front-line experience in government having held multiple senior positions, including as an Assistant Chief Immigration Judge, overseeing the US Immigration Court in Annandale, Virginia, as the Chief of the National Security Division at USCIS's Fraud Detection and National Security Directorate and as Assistant Chief Counsel with US Immigration and Customs Enforcement. I'll turn to Senator Padilla to introduce the remaining witnesses.

46:49 – 48:34

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to uh welcome and briefly introduce the minorities witnesses today, Mr. Eric Schwartz and Mr. David Beer. Professor Eric Schwartz is chair of the global policy area at the Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota. Mr. Schwartz is a former director of Refugees International and also has an extensive background in government work. Having served as an assistant secretary of state populations refugees and migration at the State Department the senior human rights and humanitarian official at the National Security Council and as a staff consultant to the House Representative's Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Asian and Pacific Affairs. His extensive work in the field of humanitarian efforts make him one of the most preeminent experts in this area and we thank him for being with us today uh Mr. David Bier is the Director of Immigration Studies at the Sales Foundation, Chair in Immigration Policy at the Cato Institute. He is an expert on legal immigration, border security and interior enforcement, and served as a Senior Policy Advisor to former Republican Congressman, Raul Labrador. In that capacity, he drafted immigration legislation for Representative Labrador, then the Chairman of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security. Mister Beer has been published in numerous prominent national publications and has been cited on multiple occasions by the United States Supreme Court and federal circuit courts Mister Beer is a political science graduate from the Grove City College in Pennsylvania and in his ex- and his experience in the field of immigration makes him a great source of knowledge for our hearing today and I thank them both for their participation.

48:36 – 53:45

But the what Good afternoon, Good afternoon, Chairman Cornyn, Chairman Cornyn, Ranking Member Padilla, Ranking Member Padilla, and members of the subcommittee. and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing to discuss GAO's work on US citizenship and immigration services' efforts to address fraud risks. in immigration benefit programs. USCIS processes millions of applications and petitions each year for persons seeking to visit the US for temporary activities, to reside in the US on a permanent basis, or to become US citizens. To ensure the integrity of the immigration system, USCIS reviews applications and petitions for potential fraud. Immigration benefit fraud is the act of willfully or knowingly misrepresenting material facts to obtain an immigration benefit for which the individual would otherwise be ineligible. Benefit fraud can occur in a number of ways, and is often facilitated by document or identity fraud. Today I'll be highlighting two recent GAO reports on USCIS's efforts to manage fraud risks across immigration benefits it adjudicates, and in three humanitarian parole processes for non-citizens with US-based supporters. First, in September two thousand twenty-two, we reported that USCIS could better insure its anti-fraud efforts are effective and efficient by taking a more strategic and risk-based based approach to managing fraud risks. For example, at the time of our report, USCIS had conducted fraud risk assessments for a small number of specific immigration benefits but did not plan to conduct additional assessments. We also found that USCIS had not developed anti-fraud strategy or evaluated its anti-fraud activities for effectiveness and efficiency. We recommended that USCIS develop and implement a process for regularly conducting fraud risk assessments developing and updating an anti-fraud strategy, and evaluating the effectiveness and efficiency of anti-fraud activities. USCIS agreed with these recommendations and has taken some steps toward addressing them. However, USCIS needs to take additional action to fully implement these recommendations. Second, in December of last year we reported on humanitarian parole processes for non-citizens with US-based supporters. The particular processes we were reviewed were one, the processes for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans, known as CHNV, uh two, uniting for Ukraine, and three, family reunification parole. the Department of Homeland Security data found that from May two thousand twenty-two through September two thousand twenty-four, the department granted parole to about seven hundred and seventy-four thousand non-citizens under these processes. In implementing the processes, USCIS was responsible for reviewing supporter applications. If USCIS confirmed the application, US Customs and Border Protection was responsible for vetting the prospective beneficiary, determining whether to authorize them to travel to the US and considering them for a discretionary grant of parole upon their revival. Shortly after the processes began, USCIS began receiving referrals of potential fraud and in two thousand twenty four conducted an analysis of supporter applications. Based on this analysis, USCIS found that fraud indicators were widespread in Uniting for Ukraine and CHNV. Fraud indicators among the applications included supporter information belonging to deceased individuals counterfeit or altered documents and thousands of applications with at least one piece of fictitious supporter information. The Department of Homeland Security suspended the CHNV and Uniting for Ukraine processes in two thousand twenty four due to the fraud risks and subsequently terminated CHNV in March two thousand twenty five. USCIS assessments attributed the risks identified in the parole processes to insufficient internal control activities. We concluded that although DHS has ended the supporter-based parole processes, USCIS could still benefit from having an internal control plan in place for future situations that may introduce new or increased fraud risks, and we recommended that USCIS develop such a plan. implementing our recommendations would help USCIS USCIS take a more strategic and risk-based approach to managing fraud risks. We will continue to follow up on USCIS's actions to implement our recommendations. Um, this concludes my prepared statement, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.

53:46 – 53:48

Thank you, Mr. Gambler. Mr. Hankinson.

53:51 – 58:53

Chairman Corwin, um, Ranking Member Padilla, members of the committee. I'm hoping we're here today to examine the issues posed by immigration benefits, applicants from Somalia. Somalia's very person to person. The most famous Somali Americans I know of are Congressman Ilhan Omar and the writer Ayan Hirsi Ali. Now their views are very far apart, yet both have been accused of immigration fraud. But the question before us is not about race and it's not about religion. The question is how we calculate risks and rewards across migrant populations so we can decide who to let into our country. Last year, DHS looked at immigration benefit applications in Minnesota, and they found evidence of fraud or national security concerns in forty-four percent of cases. USCIS Chief Joe Edlow said, "That should shock all of America." It doesn't shock me, because in my consular assignments I was lied to many times a day about every aspect of applicants' cases including their age, name, identity, occupation, marital status, purpose of travel, wealth, income, relatives in the US, and intent to return home. It's an unfortunate fact, people lie to get visas and immigration benefits. An interview with US consular officers, the first line of vetting for visa applicants. And the second line of vetting is through automatic checks of US databases. If a foreigner has a record in the United States, we can see it, but the great weakness of vetting is what I call the nine O rule, nothing in, nothing out. Let's assume a visa applicant has committed a serious crime, but his home country has little law enforcement and no centralized records. Well, if his country is incapable of recording or unwilling to share this criminal record, then we have no way of knowing the truth unless the individual self-reports on his application form. And in my experience, many applicants with adverse histories don't volunteer this information. Typically, the more corrupt and poor a country is, the more visa fraud. Somalia is as poor and corrupt as countries get. In twenty twenty five, the UN ranked Somalia one hundred and ninety-two out of one hundred and ninety-three countries on its human development index. Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index ranks Somalia one hundred and seventy-ninth out of one hundred and eighty. At the US embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, I supervised consular operations for Somalia since we had no consular presence there, and here are some examples of the routine fraud that we saw. Fraudulent claims to marriages and family relationships, fraudulent or unauthorized letters of support from the Somali government, fraudulent employment letters, educational qualifications, civil documents, letters of invitation from Somalis in America, who had sponsored other individuals who claimed asylum and so on. This hearing's about visa fraud, not welfare fraud, but they are connected. Like crime, corruption rates seem to follow immigrant populations into host countries at least in the first generation. Refugees in the US can be eligible with no waiting period for federal benefits including Medicaid, cash and medical assistance, social services, social security, supplemental security income, supplemental nutrition assistance program, temporary assistance for needy families, and federal student aid. Now, all Americans or Americans of all background have been known to commit fraud, but the concentration and the scale of the welfare benefit fraud committed by people of Somali descent in Minnesota, is still notable with losses estimated in the billions. The US asylum system is also easy to defraud because there are too many cases and we lack the resources to verify every applicant's claim in their home country. There are over one point five million cases pending at USCIS, and that back backlog encourages more fraud because aliens know that they can stay here for years before their cases get decided. And if they obtain US visas by fraud, they usually go on to become American citizens, all on the foundations of an original lie. And once citizens, they can petition to bring in their relatives. In two thousand seventeen, the US prosecuted a fake family of five Somalis in Minnesota, who fraudulently obtained US citizenship after winning the green card lottery, under false names and relationships. But I'd call that a rare win among many fraudulent cases that are never discovered. And in addition, Somalia's perpetual violence makes it quite likely that some asylum applicants have persecuted others in the past, which should render them ineligible, but we would have no way of knowing without being able to vet them and having accurate records. Uh, some Somalis have gotten a second nationality, including in the US, and yet they go back to Somalia regularly to do business. Others based in the US have financed terrorist activity, or recruited others to fight for Al-Shabaab. And these activities are obviously incompatible with asylum status, let alone citizenship. DHS recently launched operation an operation in Minnesota to review thousands of refugee cases through background checks and verification, which I think is a great start. They should apply the growing power of artificial intelligence and to look at fraud patterns in all immigration benefits from visas all the way through to naturalization. We have to do that to restore integrity into our system and to punish those who abuse our generosity. And we should not be giving immigration benefits to people from countries, in general, whose identities we cannot verify and whose documents are unreliable, and whose criminal records cannot be checked adequately. Thank you very much. I'd be happy to take questions.

58:53 – 58:54

Thank you, Mister Linderman.

58:56 – 1:03:20

Thank you, Mister Chairman. I thank the committee for this opportunity. As a US diplomat who dealt with consular issues during my postings in Trinidad, Cuba, Ecuador and Mexico, I came into regular contact with widespread fraudulent activities related to obtaining a US visa. The fraud took place at many levels. Sometimes it involves simple cases of altered documents, and other times it involved organized criminal networks that it linked back to the United States. The most challenging and pernicious aspect of sophisticated fraud involved corrupt host government authorities who provided bogus official documents to crooked visa applicants This unscrupulous practice is common in countries, with widespread government corruption. The US visa process is driven by a documentation by documentation presented by applicants particularly those that show their family relationships, educational and work history, police and medical records. In conspiracy with corrupt government offici officials, malfeasant visa applicants can obtain falsified birth, marriage, divorce, or police documents, among others. Years ago, the Congress passed the Immigration and Nationality Act to set the standards for US Consular officers to adjudicate visas. The INA rightly puts the burden of proof on visa applicants to demonstrate their bona fides to receive a visa benefit. This process, however, is fundamentally complicated when applicants can procure from local corrupt government authorities through bribes or illicit favors official documentation that falsely attests to vital information. When visa applicants present such falsified documentation, the burden of proof in effect has been flipped back on the consular officer to demonstrate that the government-issued document is bogus. Demonstrating such fraud is a supreme challenge for consular officers. Only so, only so much information can be extracted during a short visa interview. Consular field investigations are costly and time-consuming, and very few can be rigorously followed up. In addition, for many years, State Department had prioritized issuing visas over investigating fraud. Consular officers were given interview quotas, Posts were ordered to avoid visa backlogs and waiting times, and plus there were always powerful voices in Washington constantly insisting that all visas be issued, and fast. Over the decades of my career, almost nobody spoke up for those consular officers who did not want to issue visas because they had fraud concerns. So what can be done? My recommendation is to make the host governments where our embassies operate, take responsibilities for their citizens, who present fraudulent documents. Right now, these governments typically ignore the fraud. The number of criminal prosecutions that host governments undertake against local fraud rings and their own corrupt bureaucrats are very, very few. Each US embassy writes an annual report on the visa fraud in the host country where they work. These reports are a wealth of information on visa fraud in that country and across the world. But State Department does not rep- keeps these documents as internal, they do not make them public, and they do almost nothing with them. This is a big mistake. These reports should be made part of the bilateral agenda in all countries where the fraud is high. Unofficially, consular officers speak of many high visa fraud countries, such as Bangladesh, Brazil, China, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Ghana, Haiti, India, Mexico, Nigeria, the Philippines and Vietnam to name just some. Unfortunately, the State Department almost never raises this issue on the bilateral agenda. Now is the moment for State Department to use these reports to take the diplomatic offensive against high-fraud countries. Instead of dealing with each visa fraud applicant as an endless series series of isolated problems, US policy should curtail visa services in those countries that tolerate or are complicit in high levels of fraud. The lesson is that visa fraud must be addressed overseas. Host governments cannot be allowed to turn a blind eye to what their unscrupulous citizens do to obtain a U S visa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1:03:22 – 1:03:24

Thank you, Mr. Linderman. Mr. O'Brien.

1:03:27 – 1:08:10

Chairman Cornyn, Ranking Member Padilla, and members of the subcommittee. Fraud in the United States has increased dramatically. driven in a large part by electronic systems that make it easy to hide one's true identity. The Federal Trade Commission reports that financial losses tied to fraud in the United States rose twenty five percent from the period twenty twenty-three to twenty-twenty-four over twelve point five billion dollars. But what many Americans don't realize is that immigration related fraud represents a large and largely unacknowledged share of the problem. Now we've heard about immigration benefit fraud, there is another type of fraud that accompanies immigration, which we refer to at USCIS as immigration related fraud. And that consists of crimes committed to maintain life in the United States when someone lacks lawful status, identity theft, false claims to US citizenship, social security fraud, tax fraud, and more. Many migrants face strong pressures to succeed, recognize opportunities created by weak oversight, and may rationalize fraudulent conduct based on ideological narratives common in their home countries. The result is widespread repeated fraud that touches nearly every part of our government systems. Despite this, reliable data about fraud is remarkably scarce. Agencies release occasional program-specific reports, but there is no consistent government-wide picture. The most comprehensive historical data, nearly two decades old, showed immigration fraud prosecutions more than doubling between two thousand four and two thousand six. But even then, those cases represented only the fraud that we caught. Today, with dramatically higher migration flows, the true scale is unquestionably far larger. A central problem is a lack of a coordinated federal strategy. Responsibility for detecting and prosecuting immigration fraud is scattered across the USCIS, ICE, CBP, the State Department, DOJ, SSA, IRS, and state agencies. And that multiplicity of agencies often comes with poor communication and overlapping jurisdictions that cause problems. Within USCIS, fraud detection has long been treated as a secondary to rapid benefit approval. Uh, the Fraud Detection National Security Directorate was created only in two thousand four and for years its work was viewed internally as an impediment rather than a core mission. In some cases, senior officials even pressured adjudicators to overlook questionable applications for politically connected individuals. The cost of this systemic neglect is enormous, although no official estimate exists for immigration-specific fraud. The fiscal cost of illegal immigration, which is driven in large part by fraudulent access to taxpayer-funded programs, has been estimated at roughly one hundred and fifty billion annually. And that figure does not capture the everyday identity theft, tax evasion, and document fraud that ripple through our communities and institutions. Now, the good news is the problem is largely solvable. Immigration benefit fraud can be sharply reduced by refusing to admit applicants whose identities cannot be reliably verified. Effective vetting requires records, school files, property records, financial histories, and other documentations. Many migrants currently arriving in the United States come from countries with poor record-keeping systems or governments that are unwilling to share information. When we cannot verify an applicant's background, we cannot responsibly assess whether that applicant poses a threat or is engaged in thro fraud where verification is impossible, denial must be the default. Immigration related fraud is even easier to address. Systems like E verify and save allow us to detect identity fraud, unlawful employment and fraudulent claims for public benefits quickly and efficiently, making these systems mandatory nationwide, paired with laws to prevent issuing licenses or identity documents to individuals whose identities and intentions cannot be confirmed, would eliminate millions of opportunities for fraud. A false statement on an immigration form often leads to identity theft illegal employment. fraudulent tax filings and illicit financial activity. These crimes undermine the integrity of our institutions and erode trust within our communities. They're also tools used by criminal networks, foreign intelligence services and terrorist organizations to conceal their activities in the United States. Thank you, and I'll look forward to your questions.

1:08:11 – 1:08:20

Thank you. We're gonna pause here for a moment. I know Senator Durbin is here, the ranking member. And Senator Durbin, do you uh have any opening remarks you'd like to make?

1:08:21 – 1:13:08

I do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the troubling first weeks of this year, federal immigration agents shot and killed two of our fellow Americans in Minneapolis. These killings followed other instances of brutal violence and arrests in Minneapolis, Chicago and cities around our country. Under the Trump administration, we've seen an unprecedented number of deaths in federal immigration detention. one of which was recently ruled a homicide. Desperate families are waiting for answers to many others. These are the devastating impacts of this administration's reckless aggressive masked deportation campaign. As members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, it's our responsibility, committee and legal responsibility, to conduct much needed oversight of the Trump administration and to have a reasoned bipartisan discussion on how to stop these abuses of power and fix the broken immigration system. Instead, we're having our second hearing in two weeks, demonizing an entire community based on a few individuals' misconduct. Quite simply, the Republicans on this committee are working overtime for the Trump administration's attacks on lawfully admitted refugees. This administration shot down refugee admissions on day one, except for white Afrikaners. They've justified this decision based on alleged fraud. To be clear, under the Biden administration, refugees went through multilayered, rigorous vetting processes, considered the gold standard of vetting. In contrast, under this administration, from the comfort of their homes in South Africa, Afrikaners can apply for a refugee program using a Google form. This processing takes less than a month in South Africa, and it shows Consi consider one recently arrived Afrikaner refugee. He made disgusting anti-semitic posts in twenty twenty three before he was admitted to this country as a refugee. Yet he was approved in record time by this administration. Even his administration claims it will revoke visas for quote anti-semitic activity. At the same time, this administration is rounding up lawfully admitted refugees. In recent weeks, immigration agents have arrested over a hundred refugees with no criminal record in Minnesota and flew them to detention centers in Texas for quote " interviews" close quote. Some were released in the middle of the night, thousands of miles from home. They had no idea where they were. They were not even given paperwork id- or identification. These individuals had immigrated the right way to the United States. Many waited for years in refugee camps overseas. Department of Homeland Security and other federal agencies. They arrived on flights coordinated by the US government. It is wrong to treat these refugees like they're fraudsters. So why is the government putting these highly vetted refugees in shackles, transporting them thousands of miles from home, and interviewing them in detention? We only have to look to the president's own words. He has repeatedly made bigoted and racist attacks on Somali immigrants, calling them, quote, garbage. Close quote. He has said repeatedly he doesn't want immigrants from, I'm not gonna use the word that he used, asshole countries. How do I know he said that? I was sitting in the Oval Office with him when he said it. The racist attacks have not stopped with immigrants. Just last week Trump posted a disgusting racist image of former President Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle. They are my personal friends. Barack was my colleague. I was the first senator to endorse him for president. I resent what President Trump m- created an image that was so demeaning to this man and his wife. His staff took the image down, but he refuses to apologize. The words " I'm sorry" are not in the president's vocabulary. This racism should have no place in our society or in our immigration system. And it should have no place in this committee. Let's be clear. Fraud is a crime and it should be prosecuted. I will remind e- everyone that it was the Biden Justice Department that opened the Minnesota fraud investigation and brought the first prosecution. And it is the Trump Justice Department that has diverted prosecutors and FBI agents away from fraud investigations to focus on the President's mass deportation campaign. Refugees are some of the most vulnerable and most vetted individuals in the United States. We can target fraud without shackling and detaining them in the dead of night. It is time we reject these racist attacks and restore order and humanity in our immigration system. I yield.

1:13:10 – 1:13:10

Mr. Beer.

1:13:12 – 1:18:36

Chairman Cornyn, Ranking Member Padilla, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. For nearly half a century, the Cato Institute's research has shown that people of any ancestry, background or birthplace, can be assets in a free society. America's imber immigrants exemplify this truth. Despite often leaving terrible conditions i abroad, immigrants work, start businesses, and invent at higher rates than the US born population. Cato's recent analysis shows that immigrants reduced deficits by eleven and a half trillion dollars over the last thirty years, including about a hundred and forty billion in Minnesota. Although welfare fraud is a serious problem, immigrants aren't to blame. Non-citizens account for just five percent of welfare fraud losses, thirty-one percent less per capita than US citizens. Rather than targeting entire ethnic groups, Congress should end the broken welfare systems, namely the oversight-free aid to states that led to all the fraud in Minnesota. But let's be clear, DHS is an anti-fraud. DHS is itself openly carrying out the largest fraud in the history of the US immigration system. DHS and the State Department are raking in billions of dollars in immigration fees and not providing the adjudications that applicants are entitled to. For individuals for over ninety countries, half of all legal immigrants, the administration is simply not processing their applications. The burden of proof is already on these applicants. DHS and State can deny anyone who fails to make their case. Instead, this administration is pocketing thousands of dollars from hardworking Americans and their relatives, including spouses and minor children of US citizens, and then not even looking at their applications. D- this is a scam. It is fraud. DHS's entire Minnesota operation is another kind of scam sold to the public on lies. DHS hasn't criminally charged anyone with fraud there, and sixty percent of its immigrant arrests in Minnesota have no criminal convictions or charges. DHS itself classifies just eight percent of its arrests in Minnesota as the highest threat level. and three quarters of arrests, it classifies as not being a threat at all. Instead of arresting fraudsters, it's seeking to jail five thousand six hundred legal vetted refugees, nursing mothers, single parents, long-term residents, already dragged away from their families without any evidence of fraud at all. Rather than a law enforcer, DHS has become the biggest law breaker in America today. In less than a year, DHS has attacked the first, the second, the fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, tenth, fourteenth amendments to the US Constitution, the writ of habeas corpus, the independent judiciary, and much more. Every day masked DHS agents detain Americans based on their race and demographics. They arrest legal immigrants for criticizing their foreign policy and Americans for recording them doing it. They threaten, assault, and even shoot people for exercising their first and their second amendment rights. They break into our homes without judicial warrants. They sentence legal immigrants to foreign prisons without trials. They are trying to strip the citizenship of Americans born in this country. They detain people without lawful basis, and they ignore court orders to release them. And of course, they lie about all of it. Combating fraud and upholding the rule of law is important, but the public cannot have faith in that effort by the administration that regularly gets away with fraud, lies, and lawlessness. Even the FBI supervisor and the fourteen US attorneys in Minnesota who were responsible for leading the welfare fraud effort there lost faith. They quit because of DHS's operation there. We need accountability. The Supreme Court has said Congress hasn't authorized Americans to sue immigration agents for constitutional violations. So fix it. No more absolute immunity, as the White House says. The new standard? Absolute accountability. Anything less would be a fraud. Thank you.

1:18:38 – 1:18:38

Mr. Schwartz.

1:18:40 – 1:20:07

Mr. Chairman, uh, Senator Taddea, uh Thank you for inviting me to justify today. Um, the school where I teach is in the Cedar Riverside neighborhood, a center of Somali American life, with businesses contributing to its commercial and social vitality in a community that faced economic distress in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties. I'll begin by noting that Minneapolis is now hosting a militarized federal law enforcement presence with ICE and CBP personnel committing civil rights violations that have been credibly documented, that have been credibly documented and reported, and that include unlawful killings, arbitrary arrest and detention, harsh mistreatment, transport out of the state of Minnesota, and perhaps most ominously, disregard a federal court orders. The result? Individual suffering that I unfortunately have witnessed firsthand, and personal anguish, families ripped apart, That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. and pervasive anxiety that shapes our learning environment and our civic environment.

1:20:07 – 1:20:09

Mr. Schwartz, is your microphone

1:20:11 – 1:20:12

OK, I think it's on now.

1:20:12 – 1:20:13

Better, yeah.

1:20:13 – 1:20:14

Alright, well I hope it is.

1:20:13 – 1:20:15

I c- I could hear, I could hear you, but uh

1:20:15 – 1:20:16

OK.

1:20:16 – 1:20:17

If that helps.

1:20:16 – 1:23:53

Um, it would be unconscionable for me not to raise an obvious and deep concern why this subcommittee is not focusing on a pattern of serious civil rights abuses affecting immigrant communities in Minnesota. These are the hallmarks of violations we more readily associate with countries like China or Russia, and we have told those governments that no matter how important the law enforcement concerns, they do not justify abuses. Isn't that a message we ourselves should take on board? Members of the committee should also be alarmed that the framing of this hearing risks tarring an entire community with a presumption of criminality, especially as there is no verifiable evidence that there is a greater degree of illegality in the Somali American community than in other immigrant communities or by that matter um uh then among US citizens. Um and these concerns are compounded when the president refers to Somali Americans as garbage, as garbage, and declares that he doesn't want them in the United States. Nearly all of the members of this subcommittee have a critical mass of Somali Americans who are your constituents. But how many of you have condemned the president's bigoted and racist statements? Turning to the Somali community in Minnesota broadly, Somali Americans have played a significant role in uh the vitality of Minnesota's economy and cultural life. Minnesota's high quality of life measurements compared to most other states in the country are due in no small measure to Minnesota's immigrant population, which is critical to meet demand for labor in the decades to come. I'll now turn to the question of refugee vetting. By the advent of the second Trump administration, the United States had in place the most extensive refugee vetting system in the world. They faced, refugees face vetting that is more thorough than for any other travelers to the United States. Applicants undergo biographic and biometric checks, overseas in-person reviews by US citizenship and immigration service officers and security reviews involving intelligence and law enforcement databases. Finally, on the question of of the feeding our future issue in Minnesota. The investigations were initiated and the indictments were announced prominently by former US Attorney Andrew Lugar highly respected for his integrity and for his professionalism more than fifty individuals have pled guilty or have been convicted and if the President of the United States were truly serious about addressing this kind of crime, a purported cause of the militarized federal presence in Minneapolis, he would have retained and strengthened the highly competent legal team working on these issues, rather than deploying thousands of ICE and CBP officers who are abusing the rights of residents. Fraud must be investigated and prosecuted wherever it occurs, but Congress should not um, should not condone rhetoric that stigmatizes entire communities. Moreover, if one key concern, if one key concern of this subcommittee is accountability, as it should be, as it must be, I urge you to direct your focus where accountability is at risk, in safeguarding citizens and residents from abuses by those who are entrusted to enforce our law. Thank you.

1:23:56 – 1:24:03

Miss Gambler, um for the general public that may be listening today, what is the General Accountability Office?

1:24:05 – 1:24:07

The Government Accountability Office?

1:24:06 – 1:24:07

Government Accountability Office.

1:24:08 – 1:24:24

We are uh Congress's uh watchdog uh Chairman. Um our mission is to um evaluate how federal taxpayer dollars are spent and to um issue reports on the result of our evaluations uh to Congress.

1:24:24 – 1:24:40

And you've um, the GAO has estimated in a April twenty twenty-four report that the U. S. government loses between two hundred and thirty-three to five hundred and thirty-three billion dollars to fraud or improper payments annually, correct?

1:24:41 – 1:24:55

Uh, that's right, that estimate, uh, chairman was focused on losses particularly attributed to to fraud each year, uh, but that was the estimate that GA GAO has made about the federal government's annual losses, um estimated annual losses attributed to fraud.

1:24:55 – 1:24:56

So fraud is real.

1:24:58 – 1:25:01

Uh, w in in terms of GAO

1:24:59 – 1:25:08

It's not a figment of our imagination. It's not racism to to identify fraud where it exists.

1:25:09 – 1:25:09

There

1:25:09 – 1:25:09

It is real.

1:25:09 – 1:25:14

there are absolutely cases of of fraud affecting uh federal government programs.

1:25:16 – 1:25:37

So during the Biden administration, um There were two programs I wanted to ask you about. One had to do with the so-called humanitarian parole process, and the other had to do with the placement of unaccompanied children with sponsors in the interior of the country. And I understand the GAO has has made investigations of both of those programs. Is that right?

1:25:37 – 1:25:39

That's right, Chairman.

1:25:39 – 1:26:07

So the I think it's it gets complicated, uh, I think for most folks to really comprehend, but there are people who claim asylum, that is essentially they're present in the United States or at the border, and they would qualify, let's say, to be a refugee if they were overseas, but they have some statutory basis for seeking admission to the United States. Is that your understanding?

1:26:07 – 1:26:16

Uh, that's right, there are different um statutory pathways by which individ individuals foreign nationals can be legally admitted to the United States.

1:26:16 – 1:27:14

But in addition to that, and that's uh I think Mr. uh Hankinson or Mr. Linderman pointed out there were about one and a half million uh pending asylum cases in front of the immigration courts, uh that simply flooded our capacity to deal with that. But um in addition to people claiming asylum, um the Biden administration used something they called humanitarian parole to let huge numbers of people into the country. Um, I think we've had witnesses testify before. Mister Hankinson, you may have been one of them, that pointed out that the uh parole process is supposed to be done on a case-by-case basis, not on a categorical basis. In other words, people coming from certain countries get admitted uh without any further question. But what what sort of fraud did you and the at the GAO find in the humanitarian parole process during the Biden administration?

1:27:15 – 1:27:58

Uh yes, thank you for the question, Chairman. In the review I mentioned in my my opening remarks, uh we looked at three uh parole processes that were available to non-citizens who had US-based sponsors. And in reviewing uh those programs, we found that that through USCIS's uh own assessment of the program, that there of the processes that there were um widespread fraud indicators in those processes. to include um supporter uh applications including um fictitious information or information that uh belonged to deceased individuals. Um and so through USCIS's own assessment they found that that there were fraud uh risk indicators in those processes.

1:27:59 – 1:30:16

So just to give people a a sense of what the magnitude of what we're dealing with as a result of the mass of humanity that's come across our border un largely unvetted uh using s a bogus process of uh categorical uh parole. In addition to that, we have uh we have um overwhelmed the immigration court system, the one and a half million pending cases, and uh, Mister Mister Hankinson or Mister Linderman, perhaps you would care to comment on this. I'm going to ask consent that a uh document from the executive office for immigration review adjudication statistics be made part of the record. That's from the Department of Justice. But here's what it shows, that in twenty twenty five alone, there were four hundred and eighty five thousand, four hundred and fifty six orders of removal. In other words, these are people who sought to have their legal rights vindicated in a court, and they simply lost. Two hundred and seventy seven thousand of them were criminal aliens with final orders in other words they were ordered to be removed from the country, but simply stayed in defiance of the law. Of that, two hundred and sixty seven thousand were not detained. In other words, they're still running loose around the country. Uh, that includes a hundred and ninety thousand convicted criminals and twenty seven thousand with cr pending criminal charges. And then there were those who were actually detained, which are nine thousand six hundred and thirteen. So it seems pretty clear to me that just the the volume of people coming across the country is overwhelmed, uh, both uh, both our the illegal immigration enforcement of our enforce uh, enforcement of our immigration laws and the legal systems that we've set up to try to determine whether people actually have a legal right, uh, to come and stay in the United States. And that's of course on top of the points that Mister Linderman and Mister Hankinson have made about, uh, countries many of these folks come from have no reliable records, so it's almost impossible to vet uh these people who are coming into the country, some of these countries. Mister uh Senator Padilla.

1:30:17 – 1:31:07

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Look, let's let's be honest, this administration is now in the process of collectively punishing refugees because their applications, sometimes pending for years, were approved under the prior administration. Uh, my colleagues on the right, though, are eerily silent about the speedy approvals of South African Afrikaner refugees who are not even going through the typical UN referral process and are being screened and admitted more rapidly than any other group of refugees going back to nineteen eighty. Now look, I believe that anyone who can show they are eligible should have a fair review of their application. My first question is for Mister Schwartz. Can you tell us what you're seeing on the ground in Minnesota and how refugees are being treated?

1:31:08 – 1:32:03

Oh, well, it's heartbreaking. Um, and of course, I'm at a university. So day in and day out, I'm probably seeing the more elite of the refugee and immigrant population. People who have more, uh, um, means, a better understanding of the l- of the legal system. But the stories that I've heard, a a student of mine who was who whose wife who was here legally, um, uh, you know, she worked at a, she works at a hospice, for goodness sake, and, you know, she was, she was taken, detained by ICE, um, i- or CBP, I don't know which. Um, had an awful circumstance, uh, was, was, was suffering from various, um, uh, um, uh, medical conditions, and was so traumatized by the experience of being detained and the treatment that she faced that she is now uh she's now back in her home country, because she doesn't want to have anything

1:32:02 – 1:32:06

Yeah, there's uh us- usually both a lot of physical as well as mental trauma

1:32:06 – 1:32:10

Tra- the trauma and but but also stories of of of families ripped apart,

1:32:06 – 1:32:07

with that experience.

1:32:10 – 1:32:27

people being flown to different parts of the country, to Texas, when they're finally determined not to merit incarceration in terms of ICE and CBP's um uh uh uh uh enforcement priorities, They're released, but they're not given the wherewithal to return home.

1:32:27 – 1:32:27

Right.

1:32:28 – 1:32:30

And this isn't coming from me only.

1:32:28 – 1:32:30

Me too, but Uh

1:32:30 – 1:32:33

I mean, you've got federal court cases,

1:32:33 – 1:32:33

Yeah.

1:32:33 – 1:32:42

federal judge um uh uh um uh federal judge Menendez, another federal judge whose name escapes me, I think it was a federal judge Schlitz,

1:32:42 – 1:32:43

Uh uh uh uh

1:32:42 – 1:32:51

who've issued these opinions and with evidence you've got the human rights organizations there. This is not this is all documented stuff.

1:32:49 – 1:32:51

Let let me interrupt you for just a second here, cuz I know you have a

1:33:00 – 1:33:16

Oh my goodness. Um, first of all, refugees, you know, don't volunteer to be refugees. They're referred. Um, we've developed, the United States developed a system over many, many years in which the referrals come from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. And and

1:33:17 – 1:33:17

Mm.

1:33:20 – 1:33:26

Mm. Do they control which administration reviews and or acts upon their applications?

1:33:24 – 1:34:03

N- n- no, they do not. They do not. And the vetting, the vetting system is, is, is, has become more and more arduous over the years. There is no person traveling to the United States who goes through a more thorough vetting, overseas interviews, biometric screening, um, and for, for countries in conflict, not just Somalia, but for countries in conflict, another level of vetting because people understand that when you're in a country of conflict, there are various factions and there are concerns that that that that US security has to take account of and which the United States has.

1:34:03 – 1:34:20

Thank you, thank you. In my time remaining, I do wanna ask Miss Gambler a question. Uh, it's a yes or no question, is the GAO currently assessing whether the speedy processing of South African Afrikaners is meeting the same standard laid out in the GAO's

1:34:22 – 1:34:30

Uh, thank you, Ranking Member Padilla, we do not have uh no, we do not have current work assessing assessing those processes.

1:34:30 – 1:35:01

Oh, okay. That's uh very telling. Um, I'm hoping there's gonna be another round of questions, but I'll end with this one. Uh, back to uh, Mister Schwartz. Uh, as you heard of the opening statements from the majority of witnesses, uh, they seem to be implying they're immigration officers and council affairs professionals and adjudicators. don't have the ability to do the the biometric uh checks and other uh key elements of vetting and reviewing would you agree with that or what would you how would you respond

1:35:01 – 1:35:27

Well in the refugee admissions context with which I'm most familiar, I think the amount of resources that by the advent of the Trump administration that have been devoted to that task, and after all in this a majority of Somalis who have come into the United States have come in as refugees initially, um I think the the the efforts were was serious, credible, and very defensible. Um, uh, but I think we can always devote more resources to addressing issues of of fraud. Of course.

1:35:27 – 1:35:30

Thank you. Senator Kennedy.

1:35:31 – 1:35:41

Thank you, Mister Chairman. Professor Schwartz. Um, you're a professor at the University of Minnesota?

1:35:42 – 1:35:43

Uh, yes.

1:35:43 – 1:35:47

Okay. Uh, beautiful state, by the way. Wonderful state.

1:35:47 – 1:35:48

It's a wonderful state.

1:35:49 – 1:36:33

Um, some people in your beautiful state went to your state Medicaid department and said, we want some taxpayer money, some being state taxpayer money, some being federal taxpayer money, to uh feed the poor. Um, and they and the and these uh these entities that did that got the money. Uh, and then they stole it. Uh, but to help cover their tracks Well, uh, let me, before I go there, do you do you think those people should be prosecuted?

1:36:35 – 1:36:41

I think if they, if there is um a reason uh to pursue prosecution, of course they should be prosecuted and convicted.

1:36:41 – 1:36:43

Okay, do you think their ethnicity should matter?

1:36:44 – 1:36:48

The the ethnicity of these people should not should not matter.

1:36:46 – 1:36:48

The thieves. Okay.

1:36:48 – 1:36:49

Not a bit.

1:36:49 – 1:37:15

Now, some of these thieves also went to some restaurants and said, uh, I need a fictitious invoice that you fed a hundred people. You're not gonna feed a hundred people. Uh, you're just gonna help me steal the money and I'll kick back some of the money to you. Do you think those restaurant thieves should be prosecuted?

1:37:16 – 1:37:20

I think if they're if they if they have committed crimes, they should be prosecuted.

1:37:21 – 1:37:22

Regardless of their ethnicity.

1:37:22 – 1:37:24

Regardless of their ethnicity.

1:37:24 – 1:37:58

OK. You you had some other people in Minnesota um who had a different scam. They they went to the uh Medicaid department and said uh, I need state taxpayer money and federal taxpayer m- money. to provide services to autistic children. Uh, and they got the money. And, uh, then to - to maximize the fruits of their theft, they went to a - Well, first. Do you think those people who s- who s-

1:37:57 – 1:37:59

The same answer to the question.

1:37:59 – 1:38:33

Okay. Uh, now, in order to - to, uh, to - to, uh, generate more money that they could steal, they went to some families. and said, " Do you have children?" And some of the families said, " Yeah, we have kids." And they said, the thieves said, " Are your children autistic?" And they said, " Well, no." And the thieves said, " Well, would y- would you, uh, agree to sign paperwork to say they're autistic if we kick back you s- kick back to you some of the money?" Do you think those families should be prosecuted?

1:38:33 – 1:38:34

Same answer.

1:38:34 – 1:38:37

OK. And you don't think their ethnicity should matter?

1:38:37 – 1:38:38

Not a bit.

1:38:38 – 1:38:42

OK. Alright, mister, is it Hankerson?

1:38:43 – 1:38:44

Hankerson, yes sir.

1:38:44 – 1:39:03

I'm sorry, mister Hankerson. Did I understand you to say that you have studied um immigrant uh communities throughout the United States in terms of fraud levels on social services?

1:39:04 – 1:39:04

R-

1:39:05 – 1:39:13

Not specifically, no, I've I've done visa interviews in many countries, tens of thousands of them, and I've looked at reports about fraud levels.

1:39:12 – 1:39:18

Okay, I misunderstood you. Uh, I'm sorry about that. It's been a long day. Mister Baier, am I saying your name right?

1:39:19 – 1:39:20

It's Mister Beer.

1:39:20 – 1:39:24

Mister Beer. I like beer better.

1:39:25 – 1:39:26

Most people do.

1:39:26 – 1:39:53

Uh, tell me that t- I heard, I think I heard you say that that some people, some folks who've come to our country, uh, and are trying to to to get status to say, to stay, have applied to the Department of Health of of um um DHS. And they've paid money and DHS is doing nothing?

1:39:54 – 1:39:58

Oh, that's right. Yep, they're sitting on their applications, not not tossing them.

1:39:55 – 1:40:04

That's a that's a that's that's a that's a pretty bold statement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know. How many people we're talking about?

1:40:05 – 1:40:07

About half of the immigrant flow right now.

1:40:07 – 1:40:08

So how many, how many

1:40:07 – 1:40:11

Ninety, ninety countries are affected by the the State Department ban.

1:40:09 – 1:40:12

how many people is, how many people is How many people is that?

1:40:13 – 1:40:18

Well, it's at least three hundred thousand abroad and probably twice that when you consider the people already in the US.

1:40:16 – 1:40:36

Okay. So, so you're saying that the three hundred thousand folks have gone to, to uh, to DHS to seek some kind of permanent status or semi-permanent status to stay. at least three hundred thousand and they paid money to DHS and DHS has has uh sa- has done nothing. Is that what you're saying?

1:40:36 – 1:40:41

That's right. Yeah, they're sitting on their applications or or they're just putting them in the trash.

1:40:37 – 1:40:43

Okay. Well, who who who at DHS is doing this? Who at DHS is doing this?

1:40:43 – 1:40:45

Oh, it's Joseph Edlow. He's in charge of it.

1:40:44 – 1:40:46

Who is Joseph Edlow?

1:40:45 – 1:40:48

He came up with this policy to just is uh

1:40:48 – 1:40:49

Who who is he?

1:40:49 – 1:40:55

He's the head of USCIS. Joseph Edlow isn't the head of USCIS. He came up with this policy where he is just

1:40:54 – 1:40:56

He's the DHS? Slow down a minute, man.

1:40:56 – 1:40:57

where he is just

1:40:56 – 1:40:58

You've had too much coffee.

1:40:57 – 1:40:57

Yeah.

1:40:58 – 1:41:01

Uh, is he at the, he's at DHS?

1:41:01 – 1:41:02

I'm just from New Jersey, so.

1:41:02 – 1:41:06

I understand. Great state too. Who does he report to?

1:41:07 – 1:41:09

Uh, secretary Noam, of course.

1:41:09 – 1:41:16

Okay. Does secretary Noam know whether this is going?

1:41:16 – 1:41:21

I don't know what secretary Noam knows, but she's aware of of the general center of this administration.

1:41:21 – 1:41:22

Well, mister, what's his name?

1:41:23 – 1:41:24

Joseph Edlow.

1:41:24 – 1:41:26

Mister Edlow, who who's his boss?

1:41:27 – 1:41:28

Secretary Noem.

1:41:29 – 1:41:32

Oh. OK. And you can document all this?

1:41:32 – 1:41:41

Oh, absolutely. They put out a memorandum saying we're not processing these people. And Secretary Rubio is involved as well when it comes to the state department.

1:41:40 – 1:41:42

Would you send me uh that memo please?

1:41:42 – 1:41:43

I will absolutely send that to you.

1:41:43 – 1:41:48

I went way over. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Joe.

1:41:47 – 1:41:48

I appreciate that.

1:41:48 – 1:41:49

Senator Kennedy,

1:41:48 – 1:41:49

Thank you.

1:41:49 – 1:42:02

uh, I'm informed that USCIS is slowing adjudication because of the huge backlog And the lack of vetting of these migrants during the Biden administration is the is the reason

1:41:59 – 1:41:59

Yeah.

1:42:02 – 1:42:03

that we've been given.

1:42:02 – 1:42:18

Okay. Yeah, I I don't know. I just heard Mister Beer, and I'm gonna send these right or wrong. Those pretty pretty bold allegations that they're they're taking the money and they're not they're they're not doing anything, and I just wanna know if it's true or not.

1:42:19 – 1:42:29

Well, they're making sure that these people are vetted, so we don't end up with people like the National Guardswoman here in Washington DC that was killed by an African

1:42:27 – 1:42:32

Yeah. I don't I mean I don't have a problem with vetting,

1:42:30 – 1:42:31

and hit her in the throat.

1:42:32 – 1:42:36

I just wanna know if whether what the witness is saying is true. No, just but

1:42:35 – 1:42:38

They're not adjudicating him. They're not promising him. Senator Klobuchar.

1:42:39 – 1:45:34

Thank you very much, Chairman, Ranking Member Padilla. Um, I believe that people who break the law have to go to jail, and people who steal taxpayer money have to go to jail, and that we need to root out fraud in every state. But I gotta say as someone that prosecuted fraud cases for eight years, the person who recommended Andy Lugar, uh who did such a tremendous job in exposing this fraud as the US attorney for the state of Minnesota, and then charged seventy-five cases as the person who actually recommended Todd Blanch to uh to recommended to Todd Blanch that he put in Joe Thompson as the acting US attorney a specific ask I made and then he did it because Joe Thompson was the one that led these fraud cases in Minnesota. As a person who actually called the Justice Department years ago and asked for more resources for the Minnesota US Attorney's Office so they would go after these cases the saddest thing that has happened besides three thousand ICE agents landing on the streets of our town is that we have now lost the fourteen, fourteen assistant US attorneys that were taking on these fraud cases. And they left because they were asked by all news accounts to investigate Renee Goode, one of two of three fatalities in Minneapolis in January. Two of three were committed by ICE agents or border control. They were asked to investigate her wife. And they did not feel that was ethical, and they left. This is incredible talent to investigate fraud that left that US attorney's office. So that's something, if we're gonna go after fraud, losing that talent is a huge problem. I guess I'd start with you, Mister Cato, because Mister of Cato, because you um had, I'd say, a passion for going after the fraud, but also for understanding uh what this metro surge has all been about. You wrote benefits fraud is a serious issue, and whoever commits it should be held accountable, but that spending billions on operations like metro surge will increase the deficit rather than invest in better systems and investigations, to control benefits fraud. I would agree, um as we've seen in Minnesota, losing that talent, losing the work that has to be done and should be done on a bipartisan basis, is such a problem. Can you describe where you think Congress's decision to spend seventy-five billion on ICE making three times its budget making it bigger than the FBI um has led to what's going on in Minnesota and ironically cut back on the fraud prosecutions?

1:45:34 – 1:46:05

Yeah, so absolutely, we're we're we're actually pulling people and resources away from criminal law enforcement. ICE is recruiting people from the FBI. They've already diverted twenty-six hundred individuals, but they're also hiring people. away from police local police as well as uh federal law enforcement into the mass deportation effort which is not targeted toward criminals, it's not targeted toward fraudsters, it's targeted towards the people who are uh living their lives peacefully in the United States and contributing to their communities.

1:46:05 – 1:46:30

Thank you. Uh we know the search has had huge economic costs uh locally the Minneapolis Economic Development Director estimates the city is losing ten to twenty million dollars every week. Estimates are it's costing about eighteen million dollars a week, the taxpayers of this country for the ICE agents that are there, for all the hotels, for all the extra hours of local police, for all the jail time. And you explained,

1:46:30 – 1:46:30

Mm.

1:46:31 – 1:46:44

uh, what's really happening with the numbers of which I support going after, uh, the worst of the worst. I support going after the violent offenders, but this is all costing huge amounts of money for the people of Minnesota and the people

1:46:51 – 1:47:28

Well, like I said in my, in my prepared remarks, in Minnesota, the immigrant population has reduced the the deficits at the federal, state and local level by almost a hundred and forty billion dollars over the last thirty years even if you look at the illegal immigrant population nationwide, so about a one point seven trillion dollar reduction in uh deficits over the last thirty years and it's because these people work, because they are increasing the economic activity, bef- because they are providing goods and services to us as Americans that that uh we have these positive economic af- effects.

1:47:23 – 1:48:11

Thank you. Thank you. Um, Miss Gambler, uh the data analysis from uh the firm Optum identified widespread vulnerabilities in the state's Medicaid program recently uh that allowed questionable billing to go undetected. Um, can you discuss what GAO recommends to states, and you can do it in writing later as well, uh to strengthen these programs. Clearly so much work has to be done in the state of Minnesota on how these grants were allowed and then of course how they were monitored afterward and I wish that's what we were focusing on uh instead of indicting an entire population group which includes police officers firefighters doctors nurses. Please answer, thanks.

1:48:11 – 1:49:01

Uh sure, I'll answer briefly, Senator, and happy to provide more information afterward, but GAO has issued um a fraud risk framework that lays out leading practices that agencies uh uh should take to help uh up front um uh prevent, detect, identify, and then address and mitigate fraud risks in uh federal programs. And so those leading practices are really helpful um for agencies to um to adopt practices relating to conducting fraud risk assessments, making sure they have um a strategy in place, and then making sure that they're targeting um resources and their their fraud anti-fraud activities to the areas of greatest of greatest risk. And those types of leading practices really help really help an agency um um have in place uh uh a process for managing uh fraud risks at a strategic level.

1:49:01 – 1:49:02

Senator Booty.

1:49:03 – 1:51:04

Uh thank you, Mister Chairman, for holding this hearing and thank you for the witnesses for You know, I think the one of the reasons this is so important is because we keep seeing fraud in the news every single day, and I wanna thank uh people in the Trump administration. They're working so hard to make sure we are accountable to taxpayers. Uh and I know that um many are examining what happened over the last administration, at least in terms of immigration and how taking in, a conservative number is eleven million, twenty million people in such a short amount amount of time, many unvetted, uh what that can do and how that can tax a nation and specifically how that can challenge an existing taxpayer base. Um, and I think that's why we're here today. It was disheartening to me to hear some comments from the other side of the aisle that questioned while we were here why would we even have this hearing because quote unquote fraud has been going on for decades. I just got here to the Senate, I'm the newest member of the United States Senate, and I actually think as fraud has been going on for decades, we should examine exactly why, even if it's uncomfortable to talk about why, even if it happened under Republican or Democrat administrations, how did we get to a point where some estimates that ten percent of our outlay is going to fraud and bad actors and criminals when Americans are working so hard to foot the bill? And we're putting our country into debt every single year, and ten percent of that is going to bad actors. I'm about to go over to the White House with my great colleague, Senator Kennedy, to talk about a bill that's gonna get signed to stop payments going to dead people. That's a good start, I would say. They can, But hey, I think having a hearing is a great s- they can vote, they can, they can vote, but they can't get the check. Having a hearing is a great start. There are not a lot of know-nothings in Washington. People know a lot of gr- Lot of stuff, but there's a lot of do nothings.

1:51:04 – 1:51:04

Mm.

1:51:05 – 1:52:14

And we have got to start acting like it is incumbent upon us to examine how we got here and fix our laws and that's why you're here today that's why we're all here today. Because every one of you would say we have a problem. Now some might say, and I think I heard, that immigration reduces deficit deficits. I think there's some testimony to the other side of that. Um. Regardless, we have to figure out why in Minnesota there was child care fraud, many from the Somali community that totaled an estimate almost nine billion dollars. I think we need to start examining when we're wasting and giving to criminals nine cents. But nine billion, probably a good reason to be here, good impetus to be here. So, I'm glad, for one, that we're having this hearing today so we can figure out how we got here, talk about how to adjust our laws to fix it and move forward so that we don't have fraud going on for the next decades into the future. And I think that's what the American taxpayers and the people that sent us here would expect from us, at the very least. Mister O'Brien, appreciate you being here today.

1:52:15 – 1:52:15

Thank you.

1:52:15 – 1:52:29

I read your testimony and you mentioned in your testimony that the net fiscal cost of illegal immigration to US taxpayers was about a hundred and Fifty point seven billion annually, is that correct?

1:52:29 – 1:52:30

Yes, that is correct.

1:52:30 – 1:52:30

Billion with a B.

1:52:31 – 1:52:31

Billion with a B.

1:52:32 – 1:52:59

So that number is, just so to put that in perspective, that is tens of billions of dollars more than the entire budget for the state of Florida. That's my home state. We are the third largest state. We have about twenty three million people. So, again, your testimony is the net fiscal cost of illegal immigration to US taxpayers is more than the entire budget for the state of Florida.

1:52:59 – 1:53:00

Yes, that is correct.

1:53:00 – 1:53:15

And if I'm not mistaken, there are only a few federal agencies, maybe the Department of Defense, maybe HHS, some of the mandatory health care spending, that have budgets in excess of a hundred and fifty billion.

1:53:15 – 1:53:17

That sounds accurate.

1:53:17 – 1:53:31

Most every federal agency has budgets for the entire agency of less than a hundred and fifty billion. But yet we give that over as a result of illegal immigration, the American taxpayers pay that every single year.

1:53:31 – 1:53:32

Yes.

1:53:35 – 1:53:39

Can you walk through that a little more in detail, how you estimated that?

1:53:40 – 1:54:14

Sure, so what we took a look at was the costs uh from illegal aliens applying for benefits that they were not entitled to, uh we looked at the criminal justice costs, we looked at the immigration enforcement costs. Uh, we looked at the state costs, uh, particularly in programs where there was, uh, federal money that the states distribute. Uh, so it was a comprehensive analysis taking into account anything where we could find a significant connection between the illegal migrant population and expenditure of taxpayer dollars.

1:54:14 – 1:54:23

And do you believe by changes to our laws, working together across the aisle, we can tweak and reform our laws, To reduce that cost and burden on the American taxpayers.

1:54:24 – 1:54:39

Yes, and I and I also think there are things in place that would eliminate a significant amount of it. For instance, the save and the E verify systems, if their use was mandatory, that would eliminate ninety five percent of the problems with uh benefits and unlawful employment.

1:54:39 – 1:54:40

Appreciate your testimony, James.

1:54:40 – 1:54:41

Senator Horono.

1:54:44 – 1:55:34

Thank you, Mister Chairman, I I believe that Senator Durbin requested, is is it okay? Thank you. He's gonna let me go. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So um you know, there is fraud in so many areas of our of of of life. I mean, there's tax fraud, there's welfare fraud. There's um Medicare fraud, there's Medicaid fraud. There is a lot of fraud. Correct? And yes, I guess we can focus on immigration fraud, which is part of what this hearing is all about, but it can s Maybe, Mister Beer, since you have research in this area, with all of this uh massive fraud that occurs, especially I would say in the Medicaid, Medicare space, um, do you think that immigration fraud constitutes uh the majority of the fraud that is going on in our country?

1:55:35 – 1:56:12

No, I'd have no way to possibly uh answer that question. I would just say, look, i- if someone's committing fraud to come to the United States, it's uh not something that's gonna be quantified in the same way as stealing from Medicaid. I mean it's just they're different measures. So, you know, we looked at the monetary value, ninety-five percent of all the monetary losses to the government from government benefits fraud is by US citizens, not non-citizens. And the non-citizen on a per capita basis is thirty percent less likely to uh

1:56:11 – 1:57:58

Yeah, so I think that uh some of the other areas of fraud that I cited, These are massive fraud they're being committed. Uh, it's hard to say and they ought ought to be investigated and prosecuted, but much of the fraud in our country is perpetrated by US citizens, not by immigrants. Now we know that the this is a regime that is totally intent on on deporting as many immigrants as possible. We have about eleven million undocumented persons. How this regime is supposed to be deporting all these people and uh is really beyond me, but nonetheless we have a uh Steve Miller who says, no, I want you all to arrest at least three thousand, get at least three thousand uh people and put them into our detention facilities for which they now have some forty billion dollars thanks to the big ugly bill. So you have all of the these resources, including the Department of Justice, they are uh every just about every department that has anything to do with law enforcement, um uh is being directed to immigration enforcement. So we have a regime that wants to deport people. And so we have this hearing that is focusing on on fraud being committed by a group of Somalis. And I tell you, you know, we I I I listened to the depiction of Somalis as a a country where they seem to be producing all these people who are prone to fraud. And I just wanna have a really short response from the professor. You know, when you were sat here listening to the portrayal of Somalis as basically fraud prone, and having worked in a community with a lot of Somalis, did this did this portrayal of a whole people come as a shock to you?

1:57:59 – 1:58:03

It it comes as a as a huge uh disappointment to me because

1:58:02 – 1:58:06

And not okay, not only that. Did it strike you as being fair, a fair portrayal?

1:58:04 – 1:58:10

the the the it's not fair, the framing of this on top of the president's statements

1:58:07 – 1:58:10

No. Okay.

1:58:10 – 1:58:13

the framing of this of this hearing is wrong,

1:58:13 – 1:58:13

So the,

1:58:13 – 1:58:16

and there's no evi- there's no evidence the Somalis are responsible

1:58:13 – 1:58:15

what what, yes.

1:58:16 – 1:58:20

for a greater degree of illegality than any other immigrant population.

1:58:20 – 1:59:49

Yes, OK, and um, Mister Beer, you know, you talked about reducing uh our deficit, you know the the um, I would say the majority of the eleven million undocumented people here what are they doing? They're working. They are buying stuff. They are going to our grocery stores and doing all that. They're paying taxes. They even pay social security security taxes, many of them, without ever hoping for any kind of uh uh payment uh from social security. So they're there being part of our community. That is why we have a whole egg egg segment saying, w- our produce is dying literally in the fields and on the vines. See, these are uh, I don't know why we are sitting here focusing on a community that is just trying to make a life for itself. So, Rather than focusing on all the fraud that is going on and all these other massive uh areas of um our lives. Sitting here with yet another hearing, and I don't know how many more hearings we're gonna have focusing on the Somalis, but it is all in the service of trying to come up with a a a a way for our regime to justify going after uh a group of people. And since when do ICE agents and the Border Patrol Uh, see, as their mission, beating up American citizens, murdering them, dragging them out of cars, and that is their mission and their jobs? Give me

1:59:48 – 1:59:51

It's too hard to find fraudsters. That's the problem.

1:59:50 – 1:59:51

a break.

1:59:51 – 1:59:57

There aren't, there aren't, there, there aren't everywhere on every street corner, so they're out harassing random people.

1:59:56 – 1:59:57

Yeah, I

1:59:57 – 1:59:58

That's the fundamental problem,

1:59:58 – 2:00:00

You know, I I agree.

1:59:58 – 2:00:03

is that there aren't actually that many immigrant criminals. So what are they doing? They're g- harassing

2:00:04 – 2:00:04

Yes.

2:00:04 – 2:00:06

They're harassing the citizens of the United States.

2:00:04 – 2:00:07

So I heard the depiction that they're doing their jobs.

2:00:07 – 2:00:07

Senator Britt.

2:00:07 – 2:00:10

That's part of the mission. Since when? Thank you.

2:00:11 – 2:01:04

Thank you, Mister Chairman, I appreciate um you holding this hearing uh to address the staggering staggering levels of fraud that we've seen. Um they're in Minnesota, but I believe it's the tip of the iceberg. And we heard my colleague from Florida talk about that um it's estimated that maybe ten percent of what we spend every single year actually um ultimately is frauded in some way, shape or form, and the American taxpayer deserves better. When our debt um climbs by the trillions at this point, and we are putting that debt on the backs of our children and our children's children, we absolutely have an obligation to ask questions. And that's exactly what we're doing here today. So, I wanna start with um, Mister Hankinson, um, I wanna begin by you You served for years as a foreign service officer at the State Department. Is that correct?

2:01:04 – 2:01:04

Yes.

2:01:05 – 2:01:14

Okay. Um, I understand that your role there, obviously adjudicating visa cases and investigating fraud. So you've had kind of been on the front lines of this,

2:01:12 – 2:01:12

Yep.

2:01:14 – 2:02:29

so to speak. Um, at recent DHS inspector general reported, it highlighted that during the Biden-Harris administration that the State Department issued more than twenty-six million non-immigrant visas, to about fifteen million people, and of those fifteen million, the State Department said that they waived the interviews and fingerprinting for more than eight million of those people. Um, that same report highlighted that uh CBP were not notified that those foreign nationals had not been fully screened by the State Department. Not only does that open our nation up for grave national security risk, but by waiving those interviews and fingerprint requirements, they make it dramatically easier for foreign individuals to fraudulently obtain visas. So m- my question is for you, based on your experience, how does it work when you when you don't fully vet individuals who are entering the United States, um, how can that or how does that ultimately lead to fraud and how can future administrations make sure that we are fully vetting and that we're actually, you know, crossing every T and dotting every I and what is the end result of that.

2:02:30 – 2:02:38

Well, I think the idea of fully vetting is is a bit of a myth because you, if you have say an immigrant visa applicant from Germany where they have excellent records,

2:02:37 – 2:02:37

Mm-hmm.

2:02:38 – 2:02:45

they share them with us, and you have that person's identity and civil documents that are trustworthy, you can be pretty sure that person is who they say they are,

2:02:45 – 2:02:45

Excellent.

2:02:45 – 2:02:53

and if they don't have a record, they don't have a record. If you have an applicant from Somalia or from uh Mali or somewhere that has much worse records,

2:02:53 – 2:02:53

Mm-hmm.

2:02:53 – 2:03:18

then you're much less likely to have an accurate result. And in some countries that I've worked, uh you have people who have um marriages that are testified to only by uh villagers who are illiterate. So they've, you know, maybe had a statement printed out for them that they've signed with a thumbprint. That's not really something you can rely on. Um and then often criminal records uh are in places like Afghanistan just simply aren't recorded. You know, everybody in the village knows, but unless you could go there to check, you have no way of knowing.

2:03:18 – 2:03:23

So how can we better how how can our system be better to prevent fraud in the future, visa fraud in the future?

2:03:24 – 2:03:33

Well, from my perspective, i- if in doubt, you don't issue, you wanna make sure that you know who it is, that they are who they say they are, and that they don't have a criminal record or any other ineligibility.

2:03:34 – 2:03:34

Mm-hmm.

2:03:34 – 2:03:38

And if you can't be sure, then you simply just don't issue that person a document.

2:03:38 – 2:03:40

And, Mister Linderman, do you have anything to add to that?

2:03:41 – 2:05:05

Uh, thank you, Senator. In my remarks, I I emphasized that State Department actually keeps country by country uh fraud summaries on the encounters that they meet in that country. This is an unclassified document in which you will find for Somalia, Nigeria, name the Mexico, name the country, a collection, a very deep uh dive into corrupt practices, uh fraudulent documents, and other information in which American diplomats, consular officers, encounter fraud. And this is a valuable tool so that you can actually make some intelligent uh judgments. Countries in which Fraud practices are widespread. When those nationals come to our country, it is only logical to believe that in many cases they may continue those practices. And so I would uh say this is not a judgment based on race, ethnicity or whatever, it's based on facts. And consular officers keep very good records as my colleague, Mister Simonson just mentioned. And when there is doubt visas should not be issued, but there is a holistic approach that we can do as well. We can turn to a government in which it a foreign government in which it basically condones corrupt practices and say we will hold you responsible for this foreign government, we will stop adjudicating visas in your country until you clean up your own documents, you clean up your your other uh uh corrupt practices.

2:05:01 – 2:05:06

Right. Yeah, demand better.

2:05:05 – 2:05:05

Thank you.

2:05:06 – 2:05:49

Um, let me ask real quick. Um, Mister O'Brien, we've discussed the topic a lot, particularly in the last couple of weeks about sanctuary cities. And it is my belief that sanctuary city policies are ruining America, and that both we can keep our law enforcement officers safe and we can keep our American citizens safe by cooperation on the state, local, and federal level. And that cooperation I think is incredibly important, and I have long thought that we should defund sanctuary cities. Obviously, um, there's a public safety risk which which I have just hit on, but Can you discuss how those same policies enable individuals to actually defraud American taxpayers?

2:05:50 – 2:05:51

Uh, sure. I mean, it's the

2:05:52 – 2:06:45

The the whole point of sanctuary cities is essentially uh for those jurisdictions to exempt themselves from federal immigration laws that they don't like. So they become a major magnet uh for people who are trying to evade the laws and are trying to commit fraud. And I think one of the things that is perhaps not necessarily digested by the American public is that if you are here illegally, you have to commit fraud in order to accomplish anything in the United States because you can't work without appropriate documentation, you can't open a bank account, you can't op- operate a motor vehicle. And so all of these places, in refusing to cooperate with federal law enforcement in order to remove immigration violators, make themselves preferred locations for committing fraud, Because they're magnets for people who are trying to evade enforcement by engaging in fraudulent activities.

2:06:46 – 2:06:49

Thank you so much, Mister O'Brien, I think we need to end sanctuary cities now.

2:06:53 – 2:06:53

Senator Durbin.

2:06:55 – 2:07:17

Thank you, Mister Chairman. Um, Mister Beer, I'm impressed by your analysis and your presentation, and I thank all the members of the panel for their presentation. But I'd like to follow up with a question or two. Um Big, bold, beautiful bill, President's budget. Approved eighteen thousand five hundred new agents.

2:07:17 – 2:07:18

Mm-hmm.

2:07:18 – 2:07:47

ICE agents ten thousand, eight and a half thousand CPB uh Asians. I believe that Secretary Noem uh has identified their training period to be forty seven days as a uh tribute to the president, the forty seventh president of the United States. When I talk to uh police chiefs and mayors back home, they say you can't prepare an officer for contact with the public in that short a period of time. Do you have any thoughts on this subject?

2:07:48 – 2:08:21

Oh, absolutely. It's uh, it is reprehensible that they're cutting back on training at a time when they're asking officers to do things that even long-experienced officers have not had to do. Conduct random traffic stops, do crowd control, All of these things, uh profiling people in the street, all of these things that were never done by immigration and customs enforcement before is now being done as a mandatory policy. So there should be more training rather than less when you're asking more from your officers.

2:08:22 – 2:09:09

And so the question uh in my mind is what are they going to do with all of these people as they're learning on the job with weapons in their hands? wearing masks so they can't be identified. It's speculation in Washington about detention facilities. How many there'll be? Eight, nine, I've heard fifteen detention facilities? Our present Bureau of Prisons population is around a hundred and sixty thousand. We have more people in jail than any country on earth. More people in jail than any country on earth. And now we're gonna build detention facilities. that house another hundred and fifty thousand. Visualize, if you will, the America that they're designing for us in the future with those parameters.

2:09:10 – 2:09:58

Look, uh, they're not they're they're clearly not concerned about the welfare of the people that they're arresting I mean they are detaining American citizens even and putting them in these facilities and not giving them access to attorneys, they're not letting them make phone calls and then they're often released without charges. But that doesn't make the wrong correct. And so now when you're gonna have this huge bureaucracy of people pulling people off the street and shoveling them into warehouses, where they're essentially black boxes, lawyers can't get in, no one, there's no oversight, there's very little due process, and the due process that there is, they're constantly attacking and trying to to remove it. So you need greater oversight, you need greater protection, but they're not putting any of the money into oversight. and uh uh accountability for these facilities.

2:09:59 – 2:10:13

So the president's been very clear what his goal is, hasn't he? He's told us he's going after murderers, rapists, terrorists, criminally insane, childhood predators, the worst of the worst, he says. How they doing on that score?

2:10:14 – 2:10:24

If you look at all the people that they've booked into these facilities, just five percent in the most recent available data had violent criminal convictions of any kind.

2:10:23 – 2:10:25

So one One out of twenty,

2:10:25 – 2:10:26

One out of twenty.

2:10:25 – 2:10:27

one out of twenty fits that category,

2:10:26 – 2:10:27

One out of twenty. Yeah.

2:10:27 – 2:10:38

so you get nineteen people that are not culpable, not liable, not criminally responsible in any way, and they are the ones who are being swept up into this detention.

2:10:38 – 2:11:25

Even more tellingly, the administration itself assigns a threat level to each detainee. And we can look at wi- in the data how they categorize these people. Just eight percent are categorized at the highest threat level. And seventy-three percent are not given a threat level at all, not a deemed, not a threat. And so you look at what they're actually saying in their own uh administrative records, they don't believe these people are threats either. And they don't care because it's not about public safety, it's about the population purge. And it, it by all means necessary. It doesn't matter if it makes us poor, it doesn't matter if it takes away our rights, it doesn't matter if it harms you, takes your wife. and sends her to some foreign country.

2:11:25 – 2:12:08

I just have a few seconds left. I commend to you the case of Miramora Martinez in October, who was shot on the streets of Chicago. A teacher in a Montessori school, she was shot in her car five times and survived, God knows how. She survived. And what happened to the charges against her? Eight weeks later, dropped. All charges. Could be because the vehicle she supposedly rammed had been moved from Chicago to Maine to be repainted. So it wasn't any evidence in her her trial. To think of what the is to happen to this thirty year old woman's life, born and raised in Chicago, an American citizen, shot by these ICE agents on the streets of Chicago.

2:12:08 – 2:12:09

And they bragged about it.

2:12:09 – 2:12:18

They bragged about it. He was the one of the shooters said, I got five bullets and seven holes. It was quite a shot. He's very proud of himself. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2:12:20 – 2:12:21

Senator Cruz.

2:12:22 – 2:13:45

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. You know, I think it is amazing that Democrats never seem to focus on innocent victims who were shot and killed by illegal aliens that their policies have led into this country they never seem to say names like Jocelyn Nungary in my hometown of Houston who was raped and murdered, a young girl by two Venezuelan gang members that Joe Biden had in custody and released and they came to Houston and raped and murdered that beauti beautiful little girl. They never seem to mention someone like Lakin Riley, uh, a nursing student, beautiful young woman murdered by an illegal alien the Democrats have released. They never seem to mention anyone like Kate Steinle, a beautiful young woman, twenty-eight years old in California, shot on a pier by an illegal alien who had been released over and over and over again. We have had Kate Steinle's father testify before this committee. He held her head in in his hands as she died, and her last words were, " Help me, daddy." And yet, for my Democrat colleagues, it seems there's no limit to how many Americans can be murdered by illegal aliens, and yet they simply don't care. They still support open borders and releasing murderers and releasing violent criminals. We're here today because of the Democrats'

2:14:09 – 2:14:10

Uh, yes,

2:14:09 – 2:14:10

Yes.

2:14:10 – 2:14:20

GAO has reported both on estimates of uh federal government losses due due to fraud as well as uh um estimates of improper payments government-wide.

2:14:20 – 2:14:46

You may recall the infamous Leering Center, whose blacked-out windows and childless facilities have become emblematic of the public programs fraud currently plaguing Minnesota. Mister O'Brien, when investigators encounter fraud this obvious, does it usually represent just a single isolated bad actor? or the visible tip of a much larger scheme.

2:14:46 – 2:14:54

No, it's usually the visual tip, excuse me, the visible tip of a much, much larger scheme. Fraud has a tendency not to occur in a vacuum.

2:14:55 – 2:15:13

In that instance, the fraud was so blatant that the or owners of the business couldn't be bothered to spell the organization's name correctly on the public signage. Mister O'Brien, does fraud of that magnitude typically persist because it's difficult to detect? Or because oversight and enforcement break down?

2:15:13 – 2:15:18

It tends to persist because oversight and enforcement break down and it tends to spread geometrically.

2:15:20 – 2:15:58

The Somali fraud problem in Minnesota is not confined to child care centers. Federal prosecutors in Minnesota expect that half of the more than eighteen billion dollars spent since twenty eighteen on fourteen different Minnesota welfare programs may prove to be fraudulent. To put that figure into perspective, the amount of fraud, if confirmed, may in pro- approach the entire GDP of the nation of Somalia. Mister Hankinson, once funds are laundered and sent overseas to fragile or corrupt jurisdiction, is there any realistic prospect of recovering them?

2:15:59 – 2:16:01

Only if they come back and spend them.

2:16:02 – 2:16:39

In many respects, Minneapolis has become the Mogadishu of the Midwest. As the chairman of the subcommittee on federal courts' oversight, uh, agency action and federal rights, I'm proud to have held a hearing last week on the issue of fraud within the Minnesota Somali community and beyond. But the problem of fraud doesn't stop there, and neither does our inquiry. Our shared civic culture rests on something uniquely American, a respect for the public commons. It is clear, though, that though Minnesota opens its doors in the early nineteen nineties to a massive number

2:16:59 – 2:17:00

No.

2:16:59 – 2:17:00

No.

2:17:02 – 2:18:11

It would be entirely naive to assume that fraud of this magnitude simply stopped. at public program frauds. I encourage you to examine the graph behind me. What do you notice about the usage of public programs among Minnesota's Somali immigrant population? Eighty-one percent of Somali households in Minnesota receive some form of welfare, compared to twenty-one percent of non-Somali households. Fifty-four percent of Somali households receive food stamps, compared to seven percent of non-Somali households. Seventy-three percent are enrolled in Medicaid compared to percent of non-Somali households and twenty-seven percent receive cash assistance compared to six percent of non-Somali households. My question to the panel, and this is my final question, is importing vast numbers of people from an impoverished nation, putting the majority of them on public welfare for years and decades at a time, and then turning a blind eye why they steal billions of dollars from the taxpayers. Is that helping America or hurting America? Each of you has a chance to answer that. Miss, Miss Gambler.

2:18:13 – 2:18:42

Yes, uh, thank you, Senator. Um, I would just say that your question really speaks to the work that GAO has done, um, as it relates to leading practices for managing fraud risk. We've, uh, put out a framework for agencies that can help them, um, better, uh, uh, put in place processes and controls up front to, to prevent, uh, fraud risks, and then also have um, policies and practices in place to really, um, tailor their anti-fraud activities and anti-fraud approaches.

2:18:40 – 2:18:41

Mister Hankinson.

2:18:43 – 2:18:52

I believe in the melting pot. I'm an immigrant, but to melt you need heat. You've gotta put heat on people to make sure they obey laws and learn how we do business in the United States.

2:18:52 – 2:18:54

Is that helping or hurting America? It's a simple question.

2:18:54 – 2:18:57

I think if we ignore fraud, um, we're hurting America, of course.

2:18:57 – 2:18:59

K. Mister Linderman.

2:18:59 – 2:19:10

That's not in the US national interest, uh, Senator, and we know that Somalia is a high-fraud country. to bring people from that country who cannot integrate into our systems is not in the US national interest.

2:19:11 – 2:19:11

Mister Biden.

2:19:12 – 2:19:17

I believe it was Milton Friedman who said you can have a welfare state or you can have open borders, but you can't have both.

2:19:17 – 2:19:18

Mister Beer.

2:19:18 – 2:19:29

We can build a wall around the welfare state, and that would be a lot better for taxpayers than building a wall and keeping out all these legal immigrants who can come and contribute.

2:19:28 – 2:19:30

I- is this helping or hurting America?

2:19:30 – 2:19:36

Certainly, the welfare state is a is a problem. But uh, we should perform it.

2:19:35 – 2:19:35

Mr. Schwartz.

2:19:36 – 2:19:53

It is not unusual for immigrant populations to have a high degree of assistance early in their, after their arrival, but we are already seeing statistics that the net benefit economically of Somali, um, presence in the United States far outweighs the cost.

2:19:53 – 2:19:59

So your testimony is this massive welfare usage is is is helping America and the fraud is helping America?

2:19:53 – 2:20:14

And that that short is wildly expensive. Those But not the fraud. We need to we need to go after the fraud, which makes all inexpressible applicable the Trump administration's decision to take actions that has decimated the US Attorney's office in Minnesota. I can't understand it. Can you understand it?

2:20:13 – 2:20:17

So so so simple question, is this helping America or hurting America?

2:20:17 – 2:20:26

A Somali presence in the United States is helping America. That that graph is wild misrepresentation of their contribution.

2:20:20 – 2:20:31

Well, for the Minnesota taxpayers who had nine billion dollars stolen from them, sir, the Minnesota taxpayers who had nine billion dollars stolen from them, it has not helped them and the American taxpayers

2:20:31 – 2:20:32

Of course not.

2:20:32 – 2:20:34

who are supporting a dependent population,

2:20:32 – 2:20:33

Of course not.

2:20:35 – 2:20:47

who are here for one reason, and that is to vote Democrat and give money to elect Democrats, and if it robs the American taxpayers and endangers our security, for our Democrat colleagues, that is a perfectly acceptable trade-off.

2:20:47 – 2:20:49

Speaking loudly does not make it true.

2:20:49 – 2:20:50

Your time has expired.

2:20:50 – 2:20:51

It just doesn't.

2:20:51 – 2:20:52

Your time has expired, Mr. Schwartz.

2:20:57 – 2:21:29

Mr. uh, Linderman and Mr. Hankinson, I want you to to uh Mister Beer's uh criticism of uh slowing the uh flow of adjudications uh because of the lack of vetting of uh migrants during the Biden administration. Do you think uh s- a additional vetting um is appropriate and slowing the adjudications by USCIS is a good idea or a bad idea in order to determine what the background is of these individuals?

2:21:30 – 2:21:55

Uh, Mister Chairman, it's uh it's a good idea to slow any visa process and to be sure when we are issuing a document refugee whatever the status that admits a foreign national into our country the obligation of the State Department or DHS has to be clear that that person is a is someone we know know who is who who he is or she is before we admit them into the country. Otherwise, why are we there?

2:21:56 – 2:21:58

Mister Hankins Hankinson.

2:21:58 – 2:22:19

I I do think everybody deserves a decision in their case in the end, even if the answer is no. Uh, but having let in uh an untold number of many millions of people under parole, released at the border, uh and having so many pending asylum cases, I think it is a good idea to pause and figure out exactly where we are and maybe revise our systems to make sure that so many people don't slip through.

2:22:20 – 2:22:56

Mister O'Brien, I I just my final question sort of for you. Um So one of the things that makes me a little bit crazy is when I see in the media, people talk about the migrants that are here in the country and said, well, they've, they haven't committed any crimes, but you made clear that uh you can't be here in the United States illegally without committing crimes. Whether it's identity theft or failure to have insurance, and driving a car, um, you name it. But of course, when you enter the country without authorization, That is a crime, is it not?

2:22:56 – 2:23:05

It is eight USC thirteen twenty five makes improper entry by an alien, a misdemeanor crime on the first offense and a felony on any subsequent offenses.

2:23:06 – 2:24:14

And you made the point, correct to my view, that uh after they get here, you cannot claim to be a perfectly law abiding individual uh if you enter the country illegally, because you can't simply can't get access to public benefits, you can't uh drive a vehicle, you can't uh and and and the like uh so um thank you for thank you for responding to that. So earlier I made part of the record a document we got here from uh the Department of Justice that said last year alone four hundred and eighty-five thousand final orders of removal. So it's really interesting because our democratic colleagues have demanded in order to reopen uh the process for the Department of Homeland Security that ICE agents be required to get court orders uh in order to detain uh these individuals. But the fact of it is, at least in this, at least last year, four hundred and eighty-five thousand of them have already received all the process they are due under the law. Isn't that correct?

2:24:15 – 2:24:31

Yeah, that is correct. Those individuals have received a final order of removal from an immigration judge. And that whole argument about the warrants is a red herring because federal district court judges do not have the authority to issue a civil warrant for the arrest of a person who has undergone the removal process.

2:24:31 – 2:24:36

Well, and that's an important point. This is a civil process, not a criminal process, correct?

2:24:36 – 2:24:36

That is correct.

2:24:37 – 2:24:48

And so the idea of having to go back to court and get another order on top of the order of dem removal that's been defied by the immigrant um makes no sense.

2:24:48 – 2:25:04

Well, it makes no sense whatsoever, and if you stop and think about it, we spend an inordinate amount of money on the immigration court, and then to claim that an immigration judge has the authority to remove somebody from the United States, but on the strength of that order ICE can't remove them from their apartment is just absolutely absurd.

2:25:04 – 2:25:58

And finally, uh, Senator Britt touched on this with you. In in Texas, we don't have the problems they're having in Minnesota, getting uh local law enforcement Cooperate with ICE. ICE issues a detainer when somebody's in a county jail. And then is turned over to uh federal authorities without ICE having to uh uh go and execute uh their their administrative warrant in the streets, and be subject to uh harassment and interference by some of the individuals who unfortunately um, including those who suffered their loss of life. for interfering with the federal law enforcement activity. So if we didn't have sanctuary jurisdictions like Minneapolis and um and Minnesota, the state of Minnesota, um would that help?

2:25:59 – 2:26:28

Yeah, it would help massively. I mean, the fact is that a large number of people who are engaged in criminal activity who are here unlawfully are gonna encounter state or local police first. And if the state and local police make the presence of those individuals known to ICE, then that means ICE has to expend a significantly smaller amount of effort in order to take that person into federal custody and subject them to the removal process or if they already have an order of removal to then physically remove them from the country.

2:26:29 – 2:26:30

Thank you, Senator Padilla.

2:26:30 – 2:27:03

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, I know uh, we're at the hour, but a few more uh questions I'll try to be brief before we close. Uh, first, Mister Beer, I saw your uh head nodding during the discussion of warrants. Uh, my understanding is the issue of warrants is specifically to, uh, federal agents going into homes without a warrant, including homes of United States citizens, the practice of racial profiling, which has been, uh, sanctioned by the Supreme Court. Do you wanna briefly add anything to that?

2:27:04 – 2:27:38

Well, absolutely, what we're talking about is going to a judge to be actually enter a home. I mean, that is, how do we know it's the the immigrant's home? We don't know that unless you actually present probable cause to a judge and determine that. You don't just rely on some individual ICE agent or some federal agent's gut. We saw what happened in Minnesota when they went with their gut. They dragged a US citizen out of his home in front of his grandkids in his underwear in the middle of winter. That's unbelievable what's happened.

2:27:38 – 2:28:00

And it wasn't who they thought it was. Uh, Mister Leonard, a quick follow-up question, I heard you say just a few minutes ago in response to Senator Cornyn's question that, uh, all, uh, background vetting processes should be slowed down, uh, so that we're sure of who's trying to come into the country, uh, something along those lines. Did I hear that correctly?

2:28:01 – 2:28:05

Senator, what I meant to say was that we should not speed up issuing

2:28:03 – 2:28:03

Uh.

2:28:06 – 2:28:11

for some abstract reason because the paperwork is pending or someone is demanding.

2:28:10 – 2:28:22

So I would imagine that not speeding up uh should apply to South African Afrikaners that the White House has given preferential treatment to. Agree or disagree?

2:28:22 – 2:28:25

I would agree that everyone who comes as a foreigner to our country.

2:28:24 – 2:28:32

But it also apply to those seeking to come to United States by purchasing this gold card that the president has talked about?

2:28:33 – 2:28:36

If they're foreign nationals they would all be vetted. So.

2:28:36 – 2:29:02

Thank you. Uh, le- transition to a question from Ms. Gambler. I asked you in the first line of questions if uh the uh process for Afrikaner's consideration was abiding by the standards and best practices that the GAO has laid out uh has the gold card program that the president has referenced a few times uh a- also uh implemented uh your recommendations?

2:29:02 – 2:29:21

Uh, thank you, Ranking Member Padilla. We ha also have have not looked at that proposal, so uh we don't have insights uh to share related to that process. Certainly if that's uh something that um uh that uh your office would be interested in GAO taking taking a a look at, um that's something we'd be happy to follow up with you on.

2:29:21 – 2:29:32

That that would be uh I think incredibly valuable for not just this committee but the entire Senate both sides of the aisle for that matter the talk about the Gold Card proposal have you seen something in writing?

2:29:33 – 2:29:37

Uh, no, GAO has not specifically been reviewing that proposal.

2:29:38 – 2:29:42

Okay. Uh, I think that's it for questions, but uh understand you have a closing statement, so do I.

2:29:44 – 2:29:48

Um, I don't have a closing statement, if you have a closing statement, go ahead.

2:29:48 – 2:31:09

Sure, just a couple of things. I mean, we we heard a lot today. I mean, I don't even know where to begin, but sadly, as I predicted in my opening statements, we heard repeated claims about immigrant communities and their supposed uh crimes on a mass scale we heard what i feared the scapegoating attacks uh that i uh warned about in my opening remarks like i mentioned uh first just to to set the record straight for folks in the audience and those watching from home of what sanctuary cities are and what sanctuary cities are not there is no city in america that the federal government cannot go in and enforce federal law period A sanctuary jurisdiction, a state, a municipality is simply a choice that those local governments take to not dedicate local resources for the enforcement of federal law. That's a federal government's job. Some jurisdictions choose to. Clearly, we've heard some examples. Some do not. Sanctuary apologies are not unlawful. They are not unconstitutional. Uh, second, the question about USCIS processing pause. Happy to enter into the record the very memos that were referenced in, uh, uh, the, uh, conversation earlier today. And speaking of US

2:31:08 – 2:31:09

Without objection.

2:31:09 – 2:32:45

Thank you. And speaking of USCIS, I know, uh, Senator Kennedy is not here anymore, but Mister Joseph Edel is indeed the Director of USCIS. It should be a name familiar to him because he was confirmed by the Senate in July twenty twenty five after having been considered by the Senate Judiciary Committee, which he is a member of prior uh to that. Um. Look folks, what we did not hear from our colleagues on the other side uh other side of the aisle today was any serious discussion of the far more widespread fraud being committed by United States citizens. Starting all the way to the top with President Trump, and we have example after example after example. Fraud that by the numbers vastly outpaces anything tied to immigrant communities. We said it before and we'll say it again in closing. Nobody condones fraud. When it happens, it should be investigated and those accountable, and those responsible to be held accountable, as they are currently with existing laws. But if you wanna truly look beyond the so-called tip of the iceberg, then demonizing entire communities for the actions of a few is not the answer. And to that end, Mister Chairman, I wanna enter into the record statements from leading refugee resettlement and advocacy organizations detailing the harmful impacts of the indiscriminate arrests in Minnesota into the record.

2:32:45 – 2:32:46

Without objection.

2:32:46 – 2:33:42

Thank you very much. And uh in closing, just two final things, a serious conversation about fraud would focus on strengthening oversight and improving enforcement, not the diversion of enforcement resources or by pushing career professionals involved in enforcement and investigation out, as the current administration is doing. We'd also be wanting to make sure that systems that we already have are working as intended. That's the conversation we should be having. But that's not what happened today. So I urge my colleagues on this committee to step away from the theatrics and the stereotypes and to engage in the real work on a bipartisan basis, of identifying genuine vulnerabilities, of strengthening safeguards and holding all bad actors accountable. Thank you.

2:33:44 – 2:33:57

The record will stay open for one week so that members can submit questions for the record. I wanna express my gratitude to all the witnesses for hanging in there with us and uh offering your expertise and answering our questions. Thank you very much.

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