Oversight With Secretaries of State: List Maintenance, Eligibility Verification

The Committee on House Administration will come to order. The title of today's hearing is " Oversight with Secretaries of State, List Maintenance and Eligibility Verification." I note that a quorum is present without objection. The chair may declare recess at any time. Also, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for five legislative days, so members uh may submit additional materials they wish to be included therein. Thank you, Ranking Member Morelli, members of the committee, uh and our witnesses for participating at today's hearing. I'll now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Today, the Committee on House Administration continues our oversight of federal elections. We'll focus on state efforts to maintain accurate voter roles, as well as our efforts to ensure only eligible voters are participating in our democratic process. In January, I sent letters to ten secretaries of state addressing these issues. My questions focused on topics including voterless maintenance, voter eligibility, including citizenship, and registering voters, how states identify and notify ineligible registrants, of removal and use of the Sav Saved database, which the Trump administration has made available free of charge. Two secretaries I wrote are here with us today, Kansas Secretary of State uh Scott Schwab and Minnesota Secretary of State, Steve Simon. I thank each of you for your responses and for being with us uh today. The committee has a responsibility for ensuring states follow federal election law. It's also responsible for drafting necessary legislative reforms. With several recent reports of ne- potential non-citizens appearing on state voter rolls, I believe it's time to act. In Ohio, sixty-two non-citizens were found on the s- on the state's voter rolls with the help of the Save database. In Iowa, an illegal alien was working as the superintendent for one of the state's largest school systems. He was registered to vote in the state of Maryland and was mailed a ballot. In Kansas, the Save database helped identify a non-citizen, who has been charged with illegal voting in three elections. It actually also turns out that he was a mayor of a city in Kansas. And just three days ago, a non-citizen was charged in Minnesota for voting in the twenty, twenty-four election. These are real stories and current federal law is part of the problem. The National Voter Registration Act and the Help America Vote Act set baseline standards for voter registrations back in uh nineteen ninety-three in two thousand two respectively. However, we've identified serious flaws in these statutes that are actually weakening election integrity. For example, under the NVRA, each state must include a voter registration application with every driver's license application. This in particular creates a serious problem when states are allowing illegal aliens to receive driver's licenses. So to get this clear, under current law, illegal aliens are required to receive voter registration materials when they get a driver's license. That's absolutely nuts. Congress caused this problem and we need to fix it. Issues like this are only compounded when states fail to maintain accurate voter rolls. Consider the implications in states with universal vote-by-mail policies. In those states, a live ballot is automatically mailed to every person on the voter rolls for every election. When list maintenance is insufficient, balance, ballots can be sent to people who have moved or to people who had ceased. What's to stop a current resident from at an address from mailing back a ballot that's not theirs, and sending it in? They're real flaws and fixing is something we should all be able to get behind. It's common sense reforms. This is exactly why I introduced the Make Elections Great Again Act. the Mega Act. The Mega Act updates, clarifies and strengthens voterless maintenance standards, including a new requirement that states conduct generalist maintenance at least every thirty days. This baseline requirement would ensure that every state takes the proper steps to keep their voters, voter lists accurate and up to date. Election integrity is not a complicated issue. Only eligible voters should be casting ballots in our elections. One illegal vote is too many. Congress has the ability to strengthen standards for federal elections, and it's time that we act. Doing so will bo- will boost voter confidence and increase participation in our elections, and that's a good thing. I thank our, both of our secretaries, for being with us today and I look forward to our conversation. I'll now recognize the ranking member, Mister Morelli, for five minutes for the purpose of providing his opening statement.

Thank you uh, Mister Chair, uh for convening us and um in just a moment I'll thank our witnesses, but I think the one thing we can all agree on today is to express our congratulations to Chairman Stile and his beautiful wife Kayleigh on their recent nuptials. I uh understood you used uh well used the uh time we were away from Washington, so I just wanna as someone who's been happily, blissfully married for forty-two years uh I think uh I can certainly say uh that I'm uh uh so incredibly happy for you and for your beautiful bride and wanna wish you all the best.

Thank you very much.

Yeah. Um so uh thank you uh again for the hearing and thanks to our witnesses, and by the way I don't want my time to be used congratulating the chair, I just want the record, thank you, thank you for giving me my time back. I uh I also wanna thank our witnesses for uh joining us today, we are grateful to you and to your fellow election officials around the country who work so hard to ensure fair, free, and secure elections. I am and everyone should be dismayed by the continuing baseless attacks on our democracy, intended to sow false doubt in election administrators like the two public servants who are with us today. I say everywhere uh that I am incredibly grateful to local and state administrators who I think jealously guard the sacred obligation and right and duty they have to count elections. And American citizens should know, cuz I wanna speak to them first, you should know your elections are secure. Your vote will count. Your vote is your power. It is your right. Please, please, please use it. The people lying about the security of our elections want to take your power away by discouraging you from voting at all. They wanna take your power away by attacking local election administrators and making it harder for them to serve your communities. Uh, they're desperate to make voters distrust democracy because they're afraid of losing power. All the suggestions uh that they're making about changes aren't about improving the process. It's about improving the process for political power. Um, you, should you begin to believe those lies, they have seized control from you, the American voter. Don't let them get away with it. In America, voters are in charge, citizens are in charge. Use your power and use it by voting. Second, I wanna speak to our witnesses, um, and share with you how deeply I respect your work. Thank you for your public service. I'm confident you both will run free, fair and secure elections in your states. You both deserve our support. You both deserve Congress's gratitude and respect. No one who does the jobs you do, uh, deserve to have resources slashed by, um, my friends here, the other side of the aisle who think it's fine to severely underfund HAVA grants. In fact, this morning, um, in a, uh, budget bill that was released, uh, the, uh, majority proposes fifteen million dollars nationally for election security grants. Fifteen million dollars for the whole country. I, uh, if I was good enough to do the math quickly, a hundred and fifty million or so Americans who cast ballots and divide it by fifteen million dollars it's not even pennies uh per voter so we need to do so much better. And you do not deserve to have new unnecessary burdens from terrible bills like the, with all due respect, the Mega Act and the Save America Act, um, which land on you right as you are in the middle of, in some states, running primaries already. Some have already, uh, happened, and certainly as you're preparing for the midterm elections. You do not, does that not, do not deserve to be falsely accused of failing to do your jobs by the same people who refuse to give you resources and support to do your jobs. You also do not deserve the unprecedented threats and risks the Trump administration is piling on top of these burdens that are being uh furthered by uh my friends on the other side of the aisle you and your voters deserve a department of justice that will protect voting rights and support critical work that you do, not one that makes illegal demands to turn over private voting data, so the Trump administration can decide who gets to vote. In your case, Secretary Schwab, Kansans do not deserve a DOJ that lies in court by claiming your state has violated voter privacy by giving DOJ sensitive data like social security numbers for Kansas voters. In your case, Secretary Simon, Minnesotans deserve a DOJ that upholds its mission to keep the American people safe, not a DOJ that tries to extort voter rolls at gunpoint like they did after the senseless shootings of Rene Good and Alex Prettig. You and your voters deserve a Department of Homeland Security that provides cyber security assistance information sharing to identify and mitigate risks, disaster preparedness, and other essential support, not a CISA, or Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security agency, that's been hollowed out by malicious conspiracy theorists and enablers here in Congress. You and your voters deserve an intelligence community and Director of National Intelligence who will protect Americans and secure our election critical infrastructure against foreign threats, not weaponize intelligence authorities for political purposes. You deserve a president who respects the Constitution of the United States, not any legal executive order purporting to take over your authorities and attacking the ability of American citizens to vote by mail. Of course, that's the same Donald Trump, I hesitate to point out, but it's important to, who voted by mail just last month, even though he was in Florida during early voting and could have gone to a polling place, but somehow found time over the weekend to go to a UFC championship fight in person. Donald Trump thinks he deserves special privileges while making things harder and more costly for Americans. You deserve a federal government you can trust, a federal government that has your back. I wish uh my colleagues on the other side of the aisle uh felt the same way, and I hope this political moment is over we'll get back to non-partisan pro-democracy values. There's so much good work we could do together to support you, the things uh like sufficient HAVA funding and a functional system that provides cyber assistance and information sharing, uh that uh we all need to do. And uh while I have much more to say, uh in the interest of time, I will uh again thank you for the opportunity to speak, Mister Chairman, and I yield back.

The gentleman yields back that objection. All members' opening statements will be made part of the hearing record. if they're submitted to the committee clerk by five p m today. Uh, today we have a one panel witness. Uh, first we have Kansas Secretary of State, Scott Schwab. Uh, next we have Minnesota Secretary of State, Steve Simon. We appreciate both of you being with us here today and look forward, uh, to your testimony. I'll now recognize Secretary Schwab for five minutes for his opening statement.

Thank you, Chairman Stahl and ranking member Morelli, and members of the committee for the opportunity to testify. Kansas Secretary of State ensuring voter roles are maintained in accordance with state and federal laws is critical. Kansas has been a leader in election security and integrity efforts for many years. When I chaired the legislature's house committee on elections in in Kansas, we enacted voter ID, which is government-issued and must just have a name and a photo on it. And a document approved it we also had documentary proof of citizenship in twenty eleven. As Secretary of State, we have strengthened post-election audits, added procedural audits, increased physical and cyber security requirements for county election offices, banned ranked choice voting, and the state eliminated a grace period to receive ballots after Election Day. These measures strengthened our election system without increasing b- b- burdens on voters. Maintaining accurate voter rolls for two million registered voters is constant. I have made it a priority to pursue every legal tool to identify voters whose registration should be updated. In Kansas, a hundred and five election officials conduct voter roll maintenance daily. Approximately five percent of the registrations are updated, every federal election due to routine voter maintenance. And on average we add about two hundred thousand new registrants, every federal um election cy- cycle. The most common maintenance activity is updating our records for voters who move. The Kansas uses multiple tools, including de-duplication, the NCOA for address for address maintenance. Identifying voters who move out of state is a challenge. That is why we established MLU's with Secretaries of Texas and Missouri to compare voter lists. I intend to work with other states to establish more MOUs to identify duplicate registrants and prevent double voting across state lines. A tool we bar are barred from using is the Interstate Cross-Check program. Kansas ran this effective program for twenty years to identify voters who moved out of state. At its height, the program compared the voter rolls of thirty-five states. It was compelled to be discontinued in twenty eighteen. Kansas removes about twenty-eight thousand registrants annually because of death. We have not identified any voters who cast a ballot. after they were deceased. Verification of death occurs from three sources, weekly data from the state's vital statistics, a voter's obituary, and Social Security Administration's death master file. While Kansas law permits the use of this data, it only became avail available after President Trump's executive order one four t one four two four eight requiring SSA to share the data with the states. Kansas cross-indexed its voter rolls with SSA last fall. More than five thousand five hundred registrants were removed following independent verification of the SSA data to ensure the correct voter was removed. Again, no deceased voters voted. Kansas was on the forefront of enacting two election integrity measures in twenty eleven, voter ID and documentary proof of citizenship however in tw twenty eighteen the federal courts banned Kansas from enforcing its citizenship laws. Unable to check citizenship at registration, we have focused on screening our roles for potential non-citizens by reviewing temporary driver's license my office introduced legislation that now to provide quarterly lists of individuals that have a TDL to verify only citizens are on the on our voter rolls. And reviewing judicial branch reports for any potential juror who claims they are not a citizen. And at the beginning of twenty twenty five, my office was one of the first to utilize the save system to review the entire state voter roll save is one of the most important tools s tools states have to verify voter information we're grateful for the president to prioritize this, at no cost. After running the voter rolls through Save, the roles are cross-checked for inten- for potential non-citizens for follow-up and possible criminal prosecution. The Attorney General and I do have a close working relationship, and when there is suspicion of an election crime, including non-citizen voting, it is referred to him. To date, the Attorney General has brought two criminal indictments and my office has referred seven more suspected non-citizens to the Attorney General. The importance of this collaboration is highlighted by the discovery of a non-citizen serving as Mayor of Coldwater, Kansas. This person registered to vote prior to the Kansas Proof of Citizenship law, which grandfathered him in. However, having access to save system prior to this administration would have identified this person and prevented additional alleged crimes from being committed. To further strengthen laws in this area, my office uh has successfully pursued legislation to take effect July one, to mandate the use of save twice a year and require state agencies to report non-citizens who apply for benefits on our voter roll comparison. Mister Chairman, Kansas has a strong checks in place to ensure eligible voters are on the rolls. I appreciate President Trump's actions to make save available and social security data at no cost to the state. I also appreciate the diligence of county election officials, and I can't say that enough, to ensure errors are not made in voter roll maintenance that would jeopardize public confidence in our system. Thank you.

Thank you very much, uh, Secretary Schwab. Secretary Simon, uh, you're now recognized for five minutes.

Thank you, Jimmy.

Thank you, Chairman Stile, Ranking Member Morelli, and members of the committee. It's an honor to be with you. I'm grateful for the invitation. And I'm glad to be here alongside my colleague and friend, Secretary Scott Schwab of Kansas. Also glad to be reunited with my former colleague as Secretary of State now Representative Lee. Minnesota is proud of its accurate, fair, secure, accessible and trusted election system. And I appreciate the opportunity to speak about it, specifically the work that is done to ensure that Minnesota's voter rolls are accurate, and up to date. Now as you know, voter roll, list maintenance and eligibility verification are governed by extensive state and federal laws. The robust procedures Minnesota follows to ensure compliance with these laws can't be covered entirely in my five minutes of remarks but I'll attempt to cover the most critical aspects of Minnesota's system here. I've included additional detailed information in my written remarks. Minnesota has a variety of rigorous election security measures in place before, on, and after election day to ensure that our voter rolls are accurate. In Minnesota, voters can register to vote either through a voter registration application, or if they are eligible, through the secure, automatic voter registration process with the Minnesota Driver and Vehicle Services Division of the Department of Public Safety. Minnesota is one of about half the states in the nation that adopted secure automatic voter registration. And it's important to know that individuals are only eligible to be included in that system if they provide citizenship affirming documentation, such as a birth certificate or a passport. at the time they apply for a driver's license or state ID card. Regardless of the method of registration, every voter registration application is compared to our state's driver's license database or the Social Security Administration Help America Vote verification database depending on the identification number provided by the voter at the time of their application. This initial comparison process is not unique to Minnesota, and is governed by the Help America Vote Act. Once this initial comparison has been completed, and the registration is added into the state database that we call SVRS, or statewide voter registration system, every single voter is also mailed a non-forwardable postal verification card. If that card is returned as undeliverable, the voter's record is challenged. And if a second postal verification card is returned as undeliverable, the record is inactivated. Once a record is entered into the statewide voter registration system it is continuously compared. to multiple data sets, including monthly reports from the Minnesota Department of Corrections on individuals incarcerated for a felony sentence, daily reports from the Minnesota court system on those who have had their right to revoke to vote revoked, monthly reports from the Department of Public Safety on non-citizens with temporary status in the US, and monthly reports from not one but two death indices, the Minnesota Department of Health, and data from the Social Security Administration. We also use data to ensure that duplicate voter records are identified and removed, and that our voter records are as up to date as possible. This includes comparing voter records against court data, to identify legal name changes, the US Postal Service national change of address registry, and address data maintained in Minnesota's driver's licensing system. We also securely share information with twenty-five states and the District of Columbia to identify voters who have moved or registered in a different jurisdiction. In the rare cases, where a potential voter registration violation is identified, state law requires referrals to the county attorney for investigation and prosecution. In addition, we also conduct annual list maintenance to inactivate any voter record that has not been updated by voting or other registration activity in over four years. This work to maintain accurate voter rolls is done by local election officials in Minnesota's eighty-seven counties and that work is supported on election day, by hundreds of municipalities and by over thirty thousand poll workers. These Minnesotans who work to administer our elections are committed to safe, secure, and accessible elections for all eligible voters in Minnesota, and I'm proud to say that public trust in this system is exceedingly high, as evidenced both by public opinion polling in Minnesota and by the fact that Minnesota routinely leads the nation in voter turnout. As Minnesota's chief election official, I'm proud to oversee a system that provides

Thank you very much, uh, Secretary Simon. Um, thank you both for being here. Um, I'll now recognize myself, uh, to begin questions. We'll then follow with the ranking member, uh, and go back and forth. Um, let's start with basic principles. Do you both agree that non-citizens should not be voting in US elections?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

So you so you agree with the principles. So let's let's dive in. I wanna dive in with you, Mister Simon, or Secretary Simon, if I can, on Minnesota's um situation here. Does Minnesota issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens?

Uh, Mr. Chair, to non-citizens broadly, uh, those who are documented and undocumented,

So so so non-citizens broadly,

yes.

including uh illegal aliens, um and is it distinguished on the driver's license whether or not an individual is a citizen or not?

Mister Chair, no, it does not.

No, it does not. Some states do, you Minnesota does not. Um, so if an individual comes to register day of uh in Minnesota, you allow same day registration. Is that accurate?

Correct.

And if an individual comes in and registers uh it was sh- there's there's no photo ID requirement on same day registration in Minnesota accurate?

Correct.

And so an individual wouldn't have to show their ID and if they did show their ID, it wouldn't say whether or not they're a United States citizen.

Mister Chair, I'm hesitating only because there are certain circumstances that might be different from that but I I take the meaning of your question, yes, it's not required.

Right, in in in Minnesota you you have a vouching uh opportunity as well.

That's right.

Uh, so an individual who is registered to vote in Minnesota uh could show up with up to eight individuals and vouch for them, is that accurate?

Yes, but they are only vouching for where they live, not their citizenship or age, only their residence.

Right, because it's not it's not asked, right? I mean, they they would simply check a box that would say that they are a US citizen. Is that accurate?

As in almost every other state, yes.

So an so it's an attestation aspect. So where they live is what you could vouch for.

Correct.

So an individual who's registered to vote um in Minnesota uh could walk in with eight people from the Quality Learing Center vouch uh that they live in Minneapolis uh and those individuals would then be registered to vote, would be capable of casting a ballot. Is that accurate?

Not quite, uh, uh, almost. I would say, eh, they have to live in the same precinct, and they have to swear an oath, and that's all the law that gives them the right.

Well, they would ha- they would have to swear to that, right? I mean, that, that,

Right.

the one person could vouch for up to eight individuals that that is the case.

Correct. Just as to residence, that's true.

Right. And so then the concern is whether or not people are doing this inaccurately.

Yes.

So let's look at a case that just came,

Right.

uh, to the forefront in your home state of Minnesota. An individual, uh, from Fillmore County, uh, has now been charged with voting illegally.

That's right.

The individual uh, was sent, uh, according to the the the the reports, was sent, uh, voter registration material, uh, following obtaining a driver's license, which is required, uh, under federal law that the state of Minnesota does that. Is that correct?

Actually, no, Mister Chair, because we're NVRA exempt.

You're you're NVRA exempt. Uh, good good qualification, but they are sent in the state of Minnesota. So not required under federal law. Most states are. You're NVRA exempt. But you do send voter registrat- the state of Minnesota sends voter registration material. uh to every individual that registers uh that that obtains a driver's license?

No, Mister Chair, actually that's not how the system works. And and and I would just say as to the news report you're flagging, this individual uh said things that i is reported to have said things that that just aren't true that he was sent some sort of you know application that is not the state of the law was not the state of the law when he registered is alleged to have registered to vote in twenty twenty three so I think he got that wrong, but no. We have a back-end AVR, automatic voter registration system, and the only folks who are eligible to even be in the pile to be considered to be registered to vote are those who produce citizenship affirming documentation, at the time they apply for that ID.

What citizenship affirming documentation will they provide?

It could be naturalization papers, it could be a birth certificate, it could be a passport, but any person in Minnesota is entitled to do that. But again, they only get to the pile where they're even considered to be registered if they do that.

And why would you not use this saved database in Minnesota?

Well, in our uh peni

It's free, right?

I think so, yep.

Under under under now under the the Trump administration has made the save database free.

I think that's right. We have made the determination, and every state has to make its own, I'm not throwing shade on my colleague uh uh Secretary Schwab, but we have made the determination that is not yet ready for use in Minnesota, and we would need a statutory change under Minnesota law to do so.

So you need a statutory change under Minnesota law to allow you to use the save database.

Right.

So, Mister Mister Schwab, do you find value in the the save database?

We d we do. Um, nobody wants a person who's deceased on their voter rolls. And so what happens is it's where where you reside is not hard and fast, where you can t you can live and t for example, I dealt with someone the other day that she lives in Oklahoma, but she's married to a soldier in Virginia, stationed in Virginia. She votes in Oklahoma. Well, if she were to die in Virginia, there's no way for us to know that she died there so they would send local rates.

So you find value in using the saved database.

So yeah so that's why we end up with so many because we haven't done this for over ten years and these people had died in other states and so then we send it to the county, the county reaches out to the family or does research to find it okay.

Cogn cognizant of it cognizant of the time because I wanna make sure all my colleagues get their questions in. Uh I think there's a real value in the saved database and I I hope uh Minnesota makes a decision to utilize it. I'll yield back, I'll now recognize the ranking member, Mister Morelli, uh for five minutes for questions. Uh.

Thank you. I um, since we're I'm gonna skip ahead uh to a question I was gonna ask later, but um, since we're on the topic, um, Secretary Simon, I understand Minnesota is a member of ERIC, which is a a non-profit organization that provides data matching, so to the point that was just being made by uh Chairman Stile, um, it wou I would think it would probably be malpractice not to talk about Electronic Registration Information Center, known as ERIC, uh in these proceedings. Can you tell them Minnesota's still a participant in ERIC, about twenty-five states are. Could you explain to the committee the value of ERIC, in particularly in the context of this state to state?

Yes, uh uh uh thank you, Representative. I mean, good data is the coin of the realm here, right? I think we all agree on that, whether it's uh a particular source uh i- is good or not, we agree that that good data matters. And we get really good data from ERIC because it enables us across state lines to do very confidential uh anonymized matching. In other words, personal information is not disclosed as such, it's coded, it's shared in an anonymized way. And it enables us very consistently and effectively to find people who have moved to another state, who are perhaps uh still registered to Minnesota. In rare cases it enables us to find people who have double voted or attempted to double vote. So because of the the scope and because of the routine uh data sharing, we find tremendous value in it. The more states are in it the better of course, but it's just about half of the states, and we find it invaluable.

And so the the uh example that was used um from Oklahoma to I forget where the other Virginia, maybe it was you said Secretary Schwab. Wouldn't that, wouldn't ERIC be a tool that would allow you to trace where people are, and whether they'd be eligible in one state or another?

Representative, it would be a good tool. The problem is is it's expensive. And we don't have the resources to join. The the cost of ERIC is determined by member states.

Yeah.

And I used to tell the folks at ERIC, if you could get California to join, then we could probably afford it because of the population of California. But then after other states like Florida and Texas left ERIC, I it would just be too expensive.

Thank you. I appreciate your honesty in that, and frankly, Uh, I would say this to that, this is where I think the federal government does have a role to play to defer costs. That would make it easier for states to share data, to come together in a way that makes sense for all citizens. If we wanna instill confidence in people, we should be investing resource. Fifteen million dollars uh for election security cra- grants in this moment to me is, it's actually I'd almost have preferred zero, at least that's less embarrassing than fifteen million, which wouldn't pay for frankly anything, and I'm I'm really disappointed in that number. Uh, if I can, um, with my remaining time. Secretary Simon, y- you mentioned, and I think at the Minnesota turnout is consistently high, uh, about ten percent higher than the national average, if I'm if I'm, uh, getting that right. Um, what what what do you think you're doing, frankly, that helps encourage that kind of turnout because frankly we should be looking at models that increase turnout across the country. Eighty million, I I I pardon me for interrupting you before you even answer the question, but eighty million voting age eligible Americans didn't vote in the last presidential election. That should be the national topic for conference. How do we encourage those eighty million to join their fellow citizens in participating? But maybe you could give me a thought or two on what you think is uh particularly going well in Minnesota that would allow us to use it as an example.

Sure, thanks Representative, I'll never uh say no to an excuse to to brag about our high voter turnout, which by the way goes back a long time, decades. It doesn't matter whether Democrats or Republicans are in charge, we love to vote. You know, I think it boils down in my judgment to two main things. Good laws and a good pro-voter culture in Minnesota. As to the laws, we're all looking for the same thing, which is the perfect balance, if such a thing exists, between access and security. Access meaning let's not make it an obstacle course unnecessarily. Security meaning let's make sure that only eligible voters and no one else is taking advantage of that accessibility. And in terms of the culture, I think some of it is self-perpetuating. We're sort of a little bit competitive with other powerhouse states like, Mister Chairman Wisconsin, a perennial rival when it comes to sports and voter turnout. And um, so I think it's those two things briefly that that explain our success.

I appreciate it. Let me just close again by thanking you both. and secretaries all around this country and local election uh administrators who I think are doing an amazing job. Our job here shouldn't be to tip the scales for a particular political party. Our job ought to make sure that the American voters have the opportunity to render their verdicts. Even when I don't particularly love the verdict they render, I have enormous respect for it, I have trust in the American people. Before I yield, if I might just ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement from the Dean of the Minnesota Congressional Delegation Representative McCullum,

Without objection.

And it also uh asking Adam's consent to enter into the record the following four items. A report by the bipartisan policy center entitled " Modernizing Voter List Maintenance" which lays out evidence-based bipartisan approaches to addressing these concerns. Secondly, a report by the Institute for Responsive Government, bipartisan policy center in R Street Institute entitled "United in Security, How Every State Protects Your Vote" in twenty twenty six which details the critical steps States Take to Secure Voting Systems in Registration. Uh, a report by the States United Democracy Center entitled Report on the Election Oversight Group, allegations about the twenty twenty election in Fulton County, Georgia, which details the conspiracy theories that the administration is regrettably believing about election systems. And finally, a report by the Institute for Responsive Government State Citizenship lists in Trump's March thirty-one, twenty twenty-six elections executive order, which details the absolute Pardon me, insanity of the citizenship list that the President's recent executive order attempts to impose on our states.

Without objection, uh, gentleman yields back, I now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida, the former Secretary of State of the State of Florida, representative Lee.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, and thank you to Secretary Schwab and Secretary Simon for being here today. As a former Secretary of State, I had the privilege of serving with both of today's witnesses uh as my colleagues, and we are very grateful to you both for bringing your expertise to our committee hearing today. Uh, I've also seen firsthand how critical it is to maintain the accuracy of voter roles, and how much that process relies on good and up-to-date information. So, today's discussion is particularly important because it helps us understand what more we can be doing to keep pace with modern capabilities, modern technology, and how we can be supporting our state and local election officials in their efforts to keep accurate current voter rolls. So I'd like to start by going back to you, Secretary Schwab. Uh you mentioned a number of different data sources that you are using related to voter list maintenance you discussed the save database you discussed the social security, uh death information, uh you also noted some of those are now accessible to you at no cost. My first question to you is this, is it accurate that previous to this administration some of those services actually were only available to States uh if there was a fee associated with them?

Yes, that's my understanding, there is there is a fee charge before. Um, the program ceased, um, I believe during President, then President Barack Obama's second term. And that was the end of the SAVE program till just last fall.

And are those tools as an assistance to you? Are they helping you in drawing down data to work on your list maintenance?

Absolutely, absolutely. The more the more data sets you can compare with, the better the system works.

Hmm. Now, one thing that I'm interested in is actually something that uh the ranking member Morelli touched on. And that is the notion of uh federal grants and federal support at the state and local level. Are there particular things that in your view we could be doing to assist with the voter list maintenance process whether that is data or technology are there things that Congress could be doing more to support you?

There's a couple things. Um, one, and I've this is where I'll disagree with the ranking minority leader, I always come from the school of a thought that elections are best run locally and funded locally. Um, I get in trouble when I accept Fava funds, but I'm expected to accept them, but then there's a match, but my legislature's not in session, so now I'm spending money that without legislative approval on the match. And this last session they didn't approve the match, so we're trying to hopefully not have to send the money back to the federal government because of the match. I'd rather just, because the string's attached, just don't give me any more money. If we need more money, we can handle it locally. Um, some other things like in the NV in VRA, there's a ninety day shutout period. It'd be nice if that was a little bit shorter. And also if there were some exemptions. If we have a confirmed death, then I would like to be able to pull that person off the voter rolls at that time, and not have to wait till after the election to do that. Um, and there's other things that we would, you know, simple things, but just, uh, make it narrow. Don't, uh, there's this image that

Now you just touched on something that I think is very important that I wanna be sure we highlight, and it's this. Because of the existing blackout periods,

Mm.

even if you have a verified death of a voter in your community that's on your voter rolls, it's correct to say that there's this time period where you can't remove them from the rolls, regardless of h- of the fact that you verify that information, correct?

Yeah, that's ninety days of list maintenance that's just lost.

Mm-hmm. And so, would it be helpful to you if that time period was shortened or changed or eliminated? What do you think would be the best approach to that, that blackout? Concept.

I'd like it I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your representative. I I would like it shortened and then certain exemptions like death. If we have a confirmed death, for example, and God forbid I was assassinated within the ninety day, it would be very public, it'd be known, but yet it's against federal law to remove me for the voter roles. It so I think it should be okay to remove me in that situation or anybody else that you have a confirmed death. Again, you're it's gotta be confirmed. It can't be just by rumor.

Thank you, Secretary. And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

The gentlewoman yields back. Uh, the Represen Representative Sewell is recognized for five minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Secretary Schwab, I, uh, want to discuss voting by mail. Um, I consider voting by mail a safe and, uh, accessible way to vote. In fact, uh, forty-eight million Americans, or about one in three, uh, voters use, uh, vote by mail in the twenty twenty-four election. Uh, now, uh, mail voting is under tax. both by the President, who himself votes by mail, I may add, and by administrative issues, uh, in the postal service that we can all agree must be addressed. Um, Mister Secretary, you shared your concerns about delivery services time and postmarking, uh, issues with, in a letter that you sent to then Postmaster General, um, uh, DeJoy. Uh, yeah, I think that was in September of twenty twenty four. Um, in this letter you wrote quote, " The Postal Service failure to deliver as promised has disenfranchised approximately one thousand voters in Kansas." Correct?

Mm-hmm.

Um, you also describe that disenfranch disenfranchisement as, quote, " a failure to provide service that enables Kansans to exercise their constitutional right to vote." Correct? Uh, Mister Chairman, I'd like to uh unanimous consent to enter into the record uh Secretary Schwab's uh letter to uh then Postmaster General DeJoy.

Without objection.

Uh Secretary uh Schwab, do you agree that voting by mail is a critical tool that eligible voters and that people just like the President uh should be able to cast their their ballots by by mail?

I do with a caveat. And by the way, Representative, we've met.

Have we?

In in your home district,

Oh right.

uh then Secretary Merrill d- did a joint venture and we've met.

Oh yes, absolutely.

Thank you for taking the time with us.

Absolutely. Secretary Merrill was uh then the uh secretary of state for the state of Alabama.

Alabama.

Yeah.

It's uh thank you so much for taking the time with us. It was a it was a an impactful trip to say the least.

Absolutely. Now tell me about vote by mail. Do you agree with that?

Vote by mail. Um so I stand by my comments. Um we have ballots from the twenty twenty election show up at county election offices three years later, which is why I always say

Uh well, I mean I think that the mail I think that you were you you concise, which is why I put in the your letter into the record. And so I get it, and I do believe that it is a critical tool and it needs a lot of work with the Postmaster General to get there on time, and I will admit that. Um, Secretary Schwab, in twenty eleven, uh, when you were in Kansas state legislature, you supported a bill that, uh, required documentary proof of citizenship to vote. That law blocked the res- the registration of more than thirty-one thousand US citizens, who were eligible to vote and the law was eventually blocked in the court. When asked by the Associated Press in twenty twenty four about the sim- a similar provision contained in the save act, you said, quote, Kansas did that ten years ago and it didn't work out so well, end quote. Uh, Mister Secretary, do you still stand by those words that requiring documentary proof of citizenship, um, to register to vote doesn't really work that well?