Protecting Workers and Powering America: The Future of Mining

Great. The Committee on Education and Workforce will please come to order. Uh, a quorum is present. Right, Mark?

Yes.

We are the quorum.

We are the unanimous.

Unanimous quorum. Uh, without objection, the chair may recess the committee at any point. Uh, I would like to thank Vincennes University for hosting today's hearing. It's great to be at an institution that is educating tomorrow's leaders in the fields of firefighting, manufacturing, workplace safety, and mining. Places where there are actual jobs that we, we certainly need. Today's hearing will examine the US mining industry and ways we can improve uh the industry for both miners and mine operators. Under the Trump administration and Republican leadership in Congress, there's opportunity for mining to grow and continue delivering for communities like this one. America's mining industry is at a turning point. Last year, President Trump issued three executive orders aimed at strengthening domestic mining production. They were critical steps to ensure energy independence for uh the nation. The Department of Labor and this committee are also taking steps to remove burdensome policies that create regular and and create regulatory landscape that allows mining operations to grow. Acting on these executive orders, the Department of Energy recently announced nearly one hundred million dollars in funding as part of its Mine and Future In- Initiative, uh with eighty million going toward uh, the development and commercialization of advanced mining technology. This initiative recognizes the innovative approaches being taken in the mining industry, where some of the most advanced technology is being used to increase production efficiency and reduce worker exposure and risk, even as we had the privilege of of viewing yesterday in the mine itself. Last July, members of this committee sent a letter to the mine safety and health Administration, MSHA, requesting that it revise the overly burdensome rule on respirable crystalline uh silica issued by the Biden-Harris Administration in twenty twenty four. The mining industry depends on small and mid-sized operators and several provisions in this final rule placed costly obligations on these businesses, which would likely cause them to close their doors. But the work does not stop there. We must ensure worker protections keep pace. For example, in July of twenty twenty five, MSHA created the Compliance Assistance and Safety and Health, uh, and Safety and Health, or CASH, program to support the anticipated surge in mining productivity following President Trump's executive orders. MSHA also continues to award millions of dollars in grants to support mine safety and health training across the United States. These investments in safety and health paid off. In twenty twenty five, the mining industry experienced its lowest total injury rate in history. While there's been outstanding progress in keeping our workers safe, there's still more work to do. Collaboration between government and private sector leads to safer workplaces and educated workforce and a stronger mining industry. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about ways to unleash the mining industry's potential in a way that protects miners and benefits the communities in which they work and live. Pursuant to committee rule eight C, all members who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by five PM, fourteen days after this hearing. And without objection, the hearing record will remain open for fourteen days to allow such statements and other extraneous material noted during the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. I'll now turn to the introduction of our four witnesses. And to do that, I'll start by recognizing Representative Messimer, uh, to introduce two of our witnesses who are both from the great state of Indiana.

Well, thank you, Chairman, and it's an honor to introduce two Hoosiers on this uh panel today. Mister Bruce Stephens is President of Resources Services LLC in Jasonville, Indiana. He brings both private and public sector perspectives on the mining industry, having previous previously served as President of the Indiana Indiana Coal Council and Director of uh Division of Reclamation in the State uh uh Indiana's Department of Natural Resources. Mr. Eric Carter is General Manager of Peabody's Energy, Peabody Energy's underground mine, located near Francisco, Indiana. With more than two ge- two decades of experience in the mining industry, he has seen firsthand how this sector has evolved and adapted to a variety of changes. I thank them both for their contributions to strengthening our state's mining industry, and for testifying today, and I yield back.

Thank you, Minister Messmer. Um, our third witness is Mister Sam Petzonk, owner of Petzonk PLLC in uh Oak Hill, West Virginia. Welcome. Our last witness, Mister Arthur Wolfson, partner at Fisher Phillips LLP in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome. We thank our witnesses for being here today pursuant to committee rules. I would ask that each of you limit your oral presentation to a three minute summary of your written statement. uh, which we have read. Uh, the clock will count down from three minutes as we have many questions for you pursuant to committee rule eight D and committee practice, however, will not cut off your testimony until you reach the five minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their responsibility, provide accurate information to this committee. I'll first recognize Mister Stephens for your testimony. Uh, five minutes. You're recorded right now. Welcome.

Thank you, Chairman Wahlberg and Congressman Mesmer. It's indeed an honor to be here. First, I wanna welcome you to Vincennes University's Gibson County Center for Advanced Manufacturing Logistics which is the home of Vincennes University's mining training program which is the recipient of the Mine Safety and Health Administration's federal funding to assist in the training and retraining of Indiana's miners. This institution provides the required training for underground surface miners delivered by instructors with decades of expertise across many aspects of mining. In fact, this facility averages training and retraining nearly three thousand coal miners each year. The facility is a true gem for Indiana's workforce development efforts, and I encourage you to take a few minutes to see it first hand if you haven't yet had the opportunity. The classrooms, equipment simulators, and Indiana's only mock underground mine for safety and rescue training speak for themselves. I encourage the committee to ensure that stable mine safety and health grant funding is sustained for state-based mining training programs, and request consideration of expanding funding to cover planning, instructor hiring, and upgrading equipment that has evolved technologically. Indiana's coal miners are highly skilled men and women. They work in one of the most highly regulated industries in the nation, subject to state and federal regulatory agencies, including those with jurisdiction over the Mine Safety and Health Act, the Surface Mining Act, the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, and others. Miners today are not producing coal with picks and shovels, but rather with specialized mechanized equipment that requires training and experience to operate. Their specialties span equipment operation, electrical systems, mine safety, welding, computerized controls and engineering, and they earn high salaries. averaging over ninety thousand dollars annually with strong benefits. They are very involved in their communities and quite generous, providing goods for those in schools and communities who may not be as fortunate. These are the kind of people we want in our communities. Unfortunately, the numbers tell a stark story. In nineteen eighty-eight, thirty-nine companies were operating seventy-two coal mines. Last year, six companies were operating nine mines. In twenty fourteen, Indiana coal mines produced over thirty-nine million tons of coal, more than in any other year. Just eleven years later in twenty- twenty-five, Indiana produced eighteen point four million tons, over a fifty percent reduction driven almost entirely by regulatory pressure that forced coal-fueled power plants to close. Some of those regulations were later overturned in court or revised, but the damage was already done. Miners lost good paying jobs and had to start over, often lower wages with fewer benefits. The need for coal has never been more urgent. Energy demand is surging due to artificial intelligence, data centers increase in manufacturing, and foreign manufacturers return to the United States, all of which are straining energy supply chains. To attract and maintain these industries, there must be adequate energy available. At a time when consumer costs are rising, our nation needs to prioritize all forms of energy. Coal is a dispatchable, storable, base load energy source ready to power these sectors. To do so, the utilities must be given certainty that coal will remain available and supported as an energy source and that regulatory reform will not be undone by a future administration as Congress mandating the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act in section one O two F which directs us to assure that the coal supply essential to the nation's energy requirements and to its economic and social well-being is provided and strike a balance between protection of the environment and agricultural productivity in the nation's need as an essential source of energy. This mandate originated in nineteen seventy seven and remains as important today as when it was first written. Thank you again for the opportunity to address the committee, and I look forward to any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Stephens. I now recognize uh, Mr. Carter for your testimony.

Chairman Wahlberg, Congressman Messmer, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Eric Carter. I'm currently the General Manager for one of Peabody Energy's underground coal mines, here locally in Gibson County. I'm here to testify about the experience with current available workforce and the state of education available for finding practices. In my thirty-two years, I've gained extensive experience with laws, policies, under the Mine Safety and Health Administration and other federal state agencies. It is of my opinion that over time, education standards and certain policies under the Department of Labor have hampered the ability of mining in communities like this. Currently in my community, schools cater primarily to employers outside of the mining industry because it's rarely highlighted as a destination for those graduates. We currently utilize mechanical, electrical, mining and civil, environmental, and software engineers. Not all high school graduates will attend a college, yet the mining industry still sees opportunities ranging from general labor to managerial. positions for an individual with the wherewithal to learn and progress. What we see today in a culture shift among students and individuals who have newly entered the workforce there does not appear to be a clear or well-promoted pathway for high school graduates to navigate their way into the trades, including mining. We've spent a significant amount of time sufficiently training, developing new workers compared to ten years ago. This new development time is causing problems, delays in production as well as safety concerns. Most importantly, this kind of shift requires collaboration among the administration, Congress, state partners and the industry to make sure there is a long-term plan to invest in US mining and to build back a stronger workforce to meet demand. Policies like President Trump's executive order to prepare for high-paying skilled jobs, and the Stronger Workforce for America Act, which was introduced by Chairman Wahlberg are much needed solutions to address the problems in our industry. Perhaps the most pressing challenge is one perception. A career in mining today can mean operating sophisticated equipment and managing complex log logistics. Working in an environment compliance or leading teams of skilled professionals, the earning per potential is among the highest available to workers without a four year degree. And the career stability that comes with supplying minerals and energy to the American economy is considerable. Changing this public perception starting in our schools and communities is critical to protecting our domestic mining industry. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Carter. I'll now recognize Mr. Petsonk for your testimony.

Thank you, Chairman Wahlberg and Congressman Messmer. Um, it's an honor to be here. I'm truly grateful for this opportunity. Uh, I am uh Sam Petsonk. I'm a Miner's Health and Safety Lawyer from West Virginia. I formerly staffed Sena- US Senator Robert C. Murd uh in Cart Goodwin on issues of mine safety. I'm I'm closely familiar with the legislative history of the Mine Act and the appropriations challenges that go along with it. I've represented thousands of coal miners and their families uh nationwide on health, safety and economic issues. Um, I want to address two principal issues today. One, the crystal and silica rule that you referenced um that was recently set aside by the Mine Safety and Health Administration and to the d- the dangers that go along with cutting back on safety budgets, uh safety agencies as we face these risks, uh heightened risks of mining in heavily depleted mineral basins such as Appalachia and the Illinois Basin with including Indiana. So as to the silica rule, uh the United States has taken a hundred years to prov- to provide miners with an independently enforceable limit on highly toxic respirable We have instituted a breathable silica dust limit for every other major category of American worker, except for the miners who eh face the most extreme exposures. Um, this is a long overdue matter. I think in the opinion of uh, you know, I see many mine workers who are here today and and working people have known these risks for a hundred years. And and we all have. It's been over well over fifty years since CDC recommended a particular uh exposure limit that we still haven't put into place. I I uh I you know hundreds if not thousands of miners in Appalachia have experienced this extreme sandstone exposure in recent decades, as we mine thinner seams, we have to cut more sandstone, and we are facing a um a s- what I call a slow moving hawk's nest disaster. You may remember in the nineteen thirties hundreds of African American rock drillers died of acute silicosis in Fayette County. I still practice in that. County today and and and I just yesterday received a report of a twenty eight year old miner with ten years of mining experience who already has very significant lung function loss from from severe silicosis I've represented thirty two year old miners thirty six year old miners miners who are seeking double lung transplants in their early forties or late thirties from this, this is an urgent issue and I and I respect the concerns about the industry and small operators very much. Uh but my purpose here today is to say that um the agency that is supposed to protect America's miners has abandoned them in court. The MSHA didn't even ask the uh the MSHA was sued over the silica rule, but they have not defended it. They could have asked the court to allow the rule to come into force to protect the most vulnerable, and and MSHA has not even asked for that. And this committee has an important opportunity to send a message to MSHA, that you can protect miners um and you have a duty to do so under the Mine Act. So I I hope you will urge the agency to uh fully restore the silica rule, and refine it later. You can you can work on it and you should. Uh but secondly, as to the uh the threat of cutting safety uh while we face these escalating risks in the mines, the government's message is run more coal. And the, you know, we've heard that message for a long time in Appalachia, but the risks are growing because in central and uh United States, uh our coal basins are substantially depleted. We've been mining for a long time. And you mine the good coal first, and then you have to get what's left over. And we're in that getting what's left over phase right now. And the, and that means we're cutting through unstable high walls, we are dealing with unpredictable methane and extreme e- e- respirable dust risk. So, um, so my second message here is uh, the admin- it's not the time for the administration to be cutting mine safety. Um, just this week the administ- this administration has reportedly laid off one third of the staff of the Mine Safety and Health Review Commission, shutting down the entire Pittsburgh office, and that we now have only three administrative law judges nationwide to hear all the mine enforcement actions in the country. And that's a real problem. By August of this year, uh with the firings that have just occurred, the administration uh the commission will lack a quorum. That means they will not be able to conduct any business at all. And that has happened before and it's caused major trouble and backlog, which is a problem for mining companies. And you can appoint a new, make sure they appoint a new commissioner to keep that thing operating, please. As to health more broadly, you know, they, the the doge effort uh cut a lot from NIOSH. Um, we've restored a lot of it, but I I've addressed in my remarks we have to c- fully restore the continuous dust monitoring functions. And lastly, I just wanna mention that we have legacy commitments to miners. We should pass the Black Lung Benefits Improvement Act. And as I mentioned, look ahead to protect rare earth miners. It's a new industry and you've got a lot on your hands. I thank you for the opportunity to address it.

Thank you. And now I recognize uh for his five minutes or three minutes of testimony, potentially five, um I recognize Mister Wolfson.

Thank you and uh I uh likewise appreciate the opportunity to be here. This is a first for me and and a and a true honor to s- to sit uh uh with my colleagues up here. Uh brief brief background about myself, I am a practicing attorney uh and a partner in the Pittsburgh office of Fisher and Phillips LLP and a member of the

Mm-hmm.

firm's workplace safety and catastrophe management practice group. My fo- my practice focuses uh on counseling and representing employers with respect to their safety and health regulatory uh requirements, and I maintain a subspecialty in mind safety and health regulatory requirements while I practice in all areas of safety and health law um. the majority of my practice is in the mine safety and health area, both coal and metal, non-metal, uh, uh, types of mines. My mining clients are regulated federally by the Federal Mine Safety and Health Act, commonly referred to as - as the Mine Act, and the regulations promulgated by MSHA. This is a strict regulatory framework and far exceeds, uh, in terms of the burdens on employers what general industry faces under OSHA. This is for three primary reasons. Number one, the Mine Act, unlike OSHA, um, requires mandatory inspections. Number two, MSHA has warrantless inspection authority, unlike OSHA. And number three, mine operators are strictly liable for any violations at their mine site. They do not enjoy the defenses that employers in general in- industry enjoy under the OSHA scheme. However, within this framework, there are several opportunities to improve the regulatory landscape, um, while still achieving the goals of the Mine Act. First, the Mine Act should include a pattern of compliance incentive that would stand opposite of the pattern of violations sanction. The pattern of violation sanction is reserved for mine operators with a demonstrated history of certain types of safety and health violations. Um, it has been said that it's reserved for quote unquote the bad actors. Correspondingly, there should be a performance-based incentive for the best of the good actors, which would relieve regulatory burden for mine operators with a demonstrated history of compliance. OSHA offers such an incentive to employers in the form of the voluntary protection program, which relieves potential uh regulatory burden under OSHA. This would require, however, a statutory change under the Mine Act and the committee should consider it. Second, the MSHA enforcement scheme uh should reward and not punish mine operators who exceed minimum regulatory requirements. Presently, mine operators frequently exceed the measures required by by MSHA's regulations, but can be cited for those v- very measures they take - they take and oftentimes those citations carry with them the elevated significant and substantial designation, commonly referred to as S and S, and MSHA frequently ignores the safety benefits provided by these measures that exceed their own regulations. Finally, MSHA should undertake rulemaking to clarify key terms. There are far too many vague and vague terms in the MSHA enforcement scheme with too much gray area which does not benefit, either mine operators, miners, or MSHA. There are numerous examples of vague terms, but I have highlighted two of them in my written testimony. First is again significant and substantial or S and S, which is an elevated designation reserved for more serious violations. MSHA should undertake rulemaking and make it clear and make a clear and workable definition of S and S. Specifically, that an S and S designation is based on the particular facts and circumstances of the violation at issue, which present a discrete hazard and a meaningful and a meaningful degree of likelihood that the hazard would occur. S- second, MSHA should undertake rule making to clarify the term an injury with a reasonable potential to cause death, which thereby require- requires mine operators to report these types of incidents to MSHA within fifteen minutes. A bright line definition for what constitutes such an injury would be beneficial to both mine operators, miners and MSHA. The absence of a clear definition leaves too much room for guesswork, particularly when such prompt operator action is needed. Uh, these are two examples of many that MSHA could undertake to provide clearer terms for the regulated community. I welcome your questions.

Thank you for your comments. Uh, under, uh, committee rule nine, We'll now question witnesses under the five minute rule. I recognize Mister Messmer for the purpose of questioning witnesses. Mister Messmer.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chairman, and and thank you to Vincent's University for hosting um this important hearing. Uh, Indiana is one of America's most important coal-producing states. Many of Indiana's communities, including this one here in Gibson County, are built on coal mining. The mining industry also is facing a harsh reality r- reality in addition to regulatory burdens that operators must bear. The industry has a growing uh workforce shortage. Vincent's university is taking steps to address this worker shortage by training future generations of industry leaders. Workers must be equipped to meet the demands of involving industry. Preparing workers to perf- perform their jobs safely and effectively is only part of the challenge. That's why safety training must be an essential component of any training program instilling a lasting culture of safety. Uh, with that, uh, Mister Stevens, um, You mentioned the many companies uh providing goods and services in the in the mining industry in your testimony. Can you explain what type of companies these are and how they impact and rely on the coal mining industry?

Certainly. Thank you for the - for the question. Um, um, it was mentioned I was president of the Indiana Coal Council for a number of years. That was trade association for the mining - the coal industry here in Indiana. We had about a hundred members, sometimes over a hundred members. Eight or ten of those were producing members, couple of them were large reserve holding members. Ninety percent of them were companies that provided goods and services to the industry. With the uh decrease in the number of mines, the decrease in production, those companies have have been harmed. Um, there are companies such as um, Equipment and Repair are very large ones. transportation, uh both over the road and - and uh railroads, uh materials for uh the mining industry um such as the roof boats and cribbings and conveyors and - and such, the building that you - you all saw yesterday. Um another thing is that uh last year there were mines, coal mines only in six Indiana counties. Um, in nineteen eighty-eight they were in thirteen counties. So there were a lot more companies providing goods and services. Uh, distance has - has, uh, has harmed them, you know, as well. So it - it's - it's a - a big impact not only to, um, the coal miner itself, but to those, uh, providing goods and services. And it's said that for every coal mining job there are three or more indirect jobs that go along with that, I - I think three is a low number wi- with respect to that. But that's - that is a, uh, snapshot of those type of companies that have been harmed.

Thank you. Um, also in your written uh written testimony you described the significant, you know, job losses to the an- and end-of-cold se- sector. Uh, why are these jobs so difficult to replace once they disappear?

Well, the - the first item I would say is that the you know, coal miners are - are highly trained, highly skilled individuals and they command a good salary, as I mentioned, averaging over ninety thousand dollars a year, um and many making more than that, and they have very, very strong benefits. And jobs in the rural areas of the state are - are difficult to match that. Um there - there may be jobs, but unfortunately when a mine closes, uh uh worker has to face a choice of whether they're going to relocate or whether they're going to accept a lower paying job which has long-term impacts on families and - and particularly communities.

'Kay. Thank you. Uh, Mister Carter, um, how do you recruit talent for your mines?

Currently, talent is recruited through various television ads, newspaper ads, so forth, contractor supply companies. Very low skilled workers come to the mines. They go through extensive training programs that are required by IMSA as well as our organizations. So, the experience of skills required in today's workforce, you know, it's h- it's highly required for the mining industry, but workers that are trained in other fields can easily adapt to the mining industry with their current and skill level. These individuals can bring a strong work ethic, very cultured safety background, as well as familiarity with regulated industrial environments with targeted training and upskilling. These capabilities can be efficiently applied to mining careers.

OK. Thank you. Anything we can do to eliminate the stigma of a c- a career in mining for the next generation?

I think removing the stigma surrounding mining industry starts with better communication about the workers and the mining actually looks like today. Too often the perceptions are rooted in outdated images or failed to reflect the industry's strong safety culture in advanced technology, commitment to environmental stewardship um by highlighting the wide range of highly skilled roles roles and use of automation and data in Linux, the clear career pathways for advancement we can better demonstrate mining offers, a stable, well-paying careers that align with many

I thank the gentlemen from Indiana. Uh, now I I uh

Mm-hmm.

give myself the - my five minutes of questioning. Um, and again thank you for the witnesses for being here. Um, Mister Wolfson, as you noted in your written testimony, uh you support MSHA creating a regulatory system that rewards mine workers who exceed their regulatory obligations in keeping their workers safe. Um, i- you mentioned VPP, um, voluntary protection program that OSHA has, which you don't have. Uh, can you provide some examples of common industry practices that go beyond the requirements of MSHA's policies?

Sure, my mining operators uh routinely provide both protections and practices that exceed what is required by the MSHA standards. Um, there are certainly uh uh trainings that mine operators undertake that exceed what is required by or part forty-six both in frequency and substance. There is equipment, I've uh provided the examples of shielded cables on underground coal, uh mobile equipment. Um there are uh proximity detection systems on uh underground coal uh equipment, other than continuous miners which is all that's currently required, uh to have a proximity detection system. Um there are uh cameras on mobile equipment. that - that frequently isn't required. Um, and, uh, mine operators, uh, invest a lot of money and time and resources to provide these, um, types of measures, uh, uh, for the safety of their workers and for the betterment of their operations.

Mm-hmm. Thank you. Uh, Mister Carter, uh, thank you for putting up with us yesterday in the mine and bringing us out as well. Um, I also appreciate your support of my bill, HR eighty two ten, the stronger workforce for America Act of twenty twenty six, or the uh really the uh wheel reauthorized legislation that takes an all of above planned an approach for workforce training. When it comes to mining, uh what does an all of above approach to worker development and training look like?

I think an all above approach to workforce development, mining industries requires coordinated policy support, strong industry participation across all full talent pipelines. This includes leveraging existing federal workforce programs such as the WIOA alongside industry-led training registered apprenticeships, partnerships with community colleges and technical schools. To ensure curriculum aligned with real-world mining needs, it also needs support from incumbent worker training. So, current employees can adapt to advances in automation, safety, systems and data-driven operations. From an industry perspective, this approach would allow operators to develop skilled reliable workforce while giving workers access to long-term high-quality careers. When policy and industry work in tandem, workforce development becomes a strategic tool that strengthens productivity, safety and domestic supply chain.

It's constant upgrading, isn't it?

Yes.

It never ends. I appreciate that. Mister Stevens uh Stevens uh mining has historically been a crucial part of this uh state's economic and industrial development. What role should the government play in partnering with the private sector to sustain mining industry's economic importance and long-term stability?

Yeah, thank you, sir. Uh, as I mentioned, um, this facility is is a a real testament to the partnership that the federal government can have um with learning institutions. Um it plays a uh very critical role with um funding, such as MSHA's uh training grant, which Ben Sins University receives annually. What is necessary is some uh stability going forward. Uh there needs to be stable multi-year funding. So training programs, um, which you - you will see, uh, if you have not already, there is a lot of equipment, there's a lot of needs, there's, uh, the need to hire competent instructors and such. So stable multi-year funding, uh, would be very welcome. Um, and then there's also opportunity for apprenticeships in mining, um, as Mister Carter referenced, um, I don't believe that some schools are, um - I - I don't believe they are steering anyone away from a - a - a, uh, career in coal, but I don't think they're really directing them toward them - toward it either. And there needs to be an understanding that, uh, today's coal miner is a highly technically competent individual who can be in many, many different, um, fields and, um, you know, make - make certain that, uh, uh the opportunity is there for them to - to find jobs in the coal mining industry.

Thank you. Um, my time has expired, but unless there's objection, I'll take a chairman's personal prerogative. Uh, we have a uh a witness here that was um uh identified for us by the Democrats on our committee. And um, Mister Petzank, you've come a long way and I appreciate you being here. Normally Democrats would be asking you questions, but since they chose not to be here, and I'm disappointed with that, I'm gonna ask you a question, uh, to make it worth your while here. Plus I think you and I discussed a little bit before we came out here, um, you highlighted considerations we should take into account regarding rare earths, minerals, uh, and the mining that will have to take place, um, if we're going to be found in that realm which we need to be. Can you briefly, briefly

Yes. Yes.

uh describe what some of those considerations might be?

Uh, thank you. This is an industry that has not matured in the United States. We are looking at producing rare earth minerals through traditional mining, pit mining, perhaps underground mining. There is also an interest in what essentially something similar to fracking which is called in-situ leaching. These, the health risks, there can be uh, potential uh exposures there that have not been well studied in the United States. And uh so my question for MSHA for for for years now really has been where is the science that that will inform our enforcement efforts and NIOSH and MSHA should be developing that so that we have the ability to identify the protective standards. And uh the the International Labor Affairs Bureau of DOL has done some initial outreach in the Democratic Republic of the Congo where,

Well it's a real world issue and uh there are wars developed around all of that, so um so thank you for those insights. Uh I now uh we'll move to a second round of questioning and I recognize the gentleman from Indiana, Mister Messmer, to begin that round.

'Kay. Thank you, Mister Chairman. Uh, Mister Wolfson, in your written testimony you call for establishing a federal mine safety and health act establishing a pattern of compliance designation. Uh, what what do you believe this had to benefit is it in creating this kind of incentive program would would accomplish?

The benefit would be to provide mine operators with um, the freedom to meet their safety and health obligations, uh, through different avenues, not just by the prescriptive enforcement method currently set forth by MSHA. Sure, they would still be, mine operators would still be required to meet the standards, um, set forth by MSHA, but currently the way in which we evaluate whether they've done so is through strict and heavy enforcement by MSHA inspectors. Uh, the OSHA example pro- uh, provides another path through, which OSHA does through its VPP, um, which is, would be a performance-based, um, program by which mine operators could demonstrate that they are complying with leading indicators for safety, rather than just strict enforcement. And if they meet those measures, then they could, uh, achieve some level of relief from the enforcement burden that they currently face from MSHA.

OK. And you commented that mine operators get cited for exceeding, uh, minimum standards. Can you gi- give me some examples of how they get - they get cited for pro- doing things that already exceed the standards.

Sure. So, uh, earlier, uh, with respect to Mr. Walberg's question, I - I offered some examples of some items that mine operators commonly use that exceed the requirements of the MSHA standards. if conditions were to exist on those uh items that are not required, that could subject uh mine operators to um uh additional citations which goes on their compliance history for an item that they're not even required to have but probably even even more concerning than that is that frequently these citations carry with it a significant and substantial or S and S designation which which uh is detrimental to the mine's uh, compliance history and can lead to further sanctions. It seems counter-intuitive to, um, uh, subject mine operators to enhanced enforcement with respect to items that they're not even required to have. And, uh, in contrast, MSHA should r- recognize the additional safety measures that these, uh, uh, items provide and consider that in the enforcement program.

Mm. Thank you. And uh will will all those changes need statutory changes or can any be d be done by rule?

The p- uh the the pattern of compliance designation would require a statutory change because presently section one O three A of the Mine Act requires that all, uh, surface mines be inspected twice per year and underground four times per year. So that would require a statutory change. In terms of MSHA's approach to the uh non-required items that exceed its standards, that would not require a statutory change and frankly wouldn't even require a rule. It would ju- it - it - it could be subject to a rule, but it could also just uh, be met by a change in how MSHA does business.

Thank you. Uh, Mister Stephens, uh, many in the mining in- view mining industry as it was decades or centuries ago, but in your testimony you make a point out that this is an industry that demands innovative approaches and highly specialized skills. How are schools, apprenticeship programs, or other training opportunities adopting to meet these demands as the industry evolves.

Thank you, sir. Um, unfortunately, you're - you're absolutely correct, um, in - in the statement that absolutely many people, um, have a - a bad perception of coal mining at - at - at this point. Um, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, um, some still view it as miners with picks and shovels. Um, going underground every day and - and uh loading coal in - in that manner. Um and uh miners work hard. They - they are absolutely some of the hardest working people that - that there are. But the operations today, they're - they're uh highly technical, they're safety driven, uh they rely on advanced equipment, um automation is - is amazing in the - the uh mining realm these days and - and um skilled trades. as well, so mining needs to be understood that it's modern and that it's uh stable and that a person can earn a well compensated career. So um expanding training programs, um apprenticeships and partnerships with high schools and technical ins- institutions would uh would help. There are a lot of skilled jobs at the coal mines. Um if those high school students um had the opportunity to learn and then have the potential to go into another program. Welding is a - a great example. Uh, there's a great need for welders not just in coal mining but - but in many, many sectors. Um, a - a high school student with a b- a background in welding could come to Vincent's University which has an excellent welding program a- as well, and continue to learn their skill. Or they could go straight to the mine and, uh, learn their skill there. So, um, we really do need to - to focus on changing um, the perception, and there needs to be an emphasis in schools that there is still a career path in coal mining and aggregate mining, um, other forms of mining a- as well.

Thank you, and with that I yield back.

Thanks gentlemen. Uh, Mr. Stephens, um, returning to you while we're discussing workforce development and workforce safety, there are dozens of other policy areas that also have a large impact on determining uh the success of mining industry as uh such as investing in technology, uh infrastructure, permitting reform, tax incentives, and we could go on and on. What policies and initiatives such as these would have the greatest imp- effect in expanding and improving mining operations?

Yes, thank you. Um D- consistent regulatory frameworks are

Define consistent. No don't don't do it.

Uh Uh, yeah, yeah, I'd be here all day, wouldn't I? Um, are - are of - of much importance. There - there absolutely has got to be certainty, um, going forward, um, permitting reform, which, uh, was mentioned, that is of - of huge importance. The goal posts can't be moved. There has to be consistency. When an applicant goes with the same type of application for the same area, uh, the - the - the things don't need to be changed from application to application. There needs to be specific time frames um that an agency must perform within. Um some are - are very good, others are unfortunately um very bad and it takes a huge amount of time and that drives up costs tremendously and it's very hard to get investors whenever you can't go and say, we have our - our permits. Um, sometimes it takes years, um, to get some of the - the federal permits, and that's uh, that's um, just really, really uncalled for. And a- as I mentioned as well, there are many utility regulations that are being looked at right now, um, at federal EPA and such, um, and within Congress. Uh, utilities are - are the coal company's customer. Um, utilities have to feel as though they're not going to be regulated, um, out of business, and any initiatives in regard to, um, giving them a comfort level that - that has them to endorse coal more so even than what they do would be very welcome.

Uh, have them speak truth to power about what the real needs are, right? I - I - I often think how much good A I has the potential of doing in permitting reform, in bumping up the time frame. by not going through the same exercises over and over again. Um, so thank you. Uh, Mister Carter, your written testimony discusses a variety of of um high skilled jobs uh that are part of your industry um and uh the broad perspective that that's there as well, and opportunities that you have, yet many students may not know about these opportunities. Could you um uh tell us where you're seeing the greatest demand for high skilled jobs and how uh we can better promote these opportunities to students and individuals working outside of the mining industry.

Currently the biggest opportunity for high skilled jobs is in the engineering fields, whether it be mining, civil, electrical, or mechanical engineering, as well as software engineers. Those roles in the industry are growing rapidly and are s- really needed to progress the mines with the new tech- technical data that comes along. All the equipment has evolved to a specific point where it requires a very high skill set. And those individuals can earn very high amount of money doing those jobs. As Ar- Arthur mentioned earlier, there are mines that have equipment, cameras and so forth, associated with equipment that's not required So it takes a highly skilled, highly trained person with ability to gain more knowledge to work on these pieces of uh specialized equipment. So. Um, as far as to better promote the opportunities, we need stronger partnerships between industry, education providers, workforce agencies to insure students transitioning to workers, understand how their skills align with mining, Um, increased exposure through career technical education, apprenticeships, internships, and outreach to workers in manufacturing, construction and energy can help demonstrate these skills were transferable to mining. Clear pathways and visibility into long-term advancement opportunities are key to attracting talent in both traditional and nontraditional backgrounds.

OK, thank you. And a few seconds I have remaining, I'm gonna take the risk, uh, Mister Wolfson, of asking you this question, uh, where you're seeing the gr- greatest demand for high skilled, uh, or excuse me, um, uh, in reference - in reference to what, um, this committee did, uh, last year in submitting a letter to MSHA calling for revisions to the twenty twenty-four rule on respiral crystalline silica uh f- so that the rule better aligns with reality that's out there. How do you believe harmonizing MSHA policies with policies set for general industry by OSHA would benefit the mining industry?

Well, it b- it would put the mining industry on an even playing field with general industry. Uh, uh, currently the - the, uh, MSHA silica rule that was, uh, promulgated in - in twenty twenty four does not allow mine operators, uh, to - to meet a level of compliance with certain measures that general industry enjoys, such as uh respiratory protection, um rotation of miners, uh uh and and th- and and through alternative means that that certain OSHA uh regulated employers enjo- enjoy through table one, um it would it would uh provide the same level of protection uh uh for miners while allowing uh mining employers to meet their obligations through a variety of ways, the same as those employers regulated by OSHA enjoy.