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House · Hearing transcript

The 30,000 Foot View: Competition and Regulation in the U.S. Airline Industry

Wednesday, June 24, 2026

Summary

  • Debate centered on Spirit Airlines May shutdown, with disagreement over whether the blocked JetBlue merger or fuel spikes caused collapse.
  • Nancy Rose (Charles P Kindleberger Professor of Applied Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology) said antitrust did not kill Spirit, fuel spikes did.
  • Jim Jordan pressed Kristian Stout (Director of Innovation Policy, International Center for Law and Economics) on how blocking the JetBlue-Spirit merger cost jobs.
  • Members split along party lines over antitrust, with Biden-era merger block praised by some and Trump-era enforcement condemned as corrupt pay-to-play.
  • Witnesses urged Congress to modernize air traffic control, reform slot allocations, and review mandates to boost competition and lower fares.

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Hearing Details

Witnesses

Members Who Spoke

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Transcript

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)4:58 – 12:25

All set. Subcommittee will come to order without objection. The chair is authorized to declare recess at any time. We welcome everybody to today's hearing on regulation and competition in the airline industry. Uh, without objection, Mister Nales of Texas will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of questioning the witnesses if a member yields them time for that purpose. Uh, I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. Today's hearing will examine competition in the US airline industry and the government regulations that limit such competition. As well, we hear from, well, we will hear from witnesses uh, consumers uh have more choice than ever before when it comes to both domestic and international air travel. Annual passenger traffic has nearly quadrupled since the nineteen seventies. And consumers now benefit from a range of choices, from the legacy airlines to the low-cost and ultra-low-cost carriers. That is all thanks to the Airline Deregulation Act of nineteen seventy eight. Uh, prior to passage of this law, the US airline industry was regulated by a government created body, known as the Civil Aeronautics Board, or CAB. The CAB heavily uh regulated the industry, setting restrictions fares, routes, and entry into the market. In other words, the government played a significant role in choosing which airlines could fly, where they could fly, and what prices they could charge. This system was severely flawed and highly ineffective and protected the existing carriers at the expense of promoting competition. Recognizing these flaws, Congress passed the Airline Deregulation Act, which phased out the old system and allowed airlines to freely compete. This deregulation transformed the market into what we see today. Unshackled from government regulation, what we saw over time was intense comp- competitive pressure that pushed prices down and consumer choice up. But that pressure also led to a significant number of mergers, acquisitions, and bankruptcies. Between nineteen seventy-eight and two thousand five, for example, a hundred and sixty-two airlines filed for bankruptcy. Today's airline industry, while certainly more accessible and more competitive, is also more concentrated than ever before. The big four air carriers American, United, Delta and Southwest control nearly eighty percent of domestic airline travel. And while the Airline Deregulation Act freed the airlines from the decrees of government boards, the government still occupies a major role in commercial aviation that often benefits the incumbents at the expense of new entrants. For example, at seven of the nation's busiest airports, the Federal Aviation Administration or the FAA controls or distributes access to takeoffs and landings through what's known as a slot system. Slot allocations are highly sought after, particularly for new entrants. Uh, an example, at London's Heathrow, for example, a single slot allocated sold for tens of millions of dollars. But the FAA cannot auction these slots, instead distributing them largely to incumbent carriers who own them in perpetuity through what's known as the grandfather rights. Many of these slots allocations also tend to be awarded to air carriers with existing infrastructure such as gate access. At DCA and Chicago O'Hare, for example, slot allocations heavily favor American and United. who operate main hubs. At other major airports such as Atlanta and Dallas-Fort Worth, legacy carriers control over seventy percent of the existing gates. Lease agreements for these gates are often long-term and can last for decades. For example, in two thousand sixteen, Delta signed a twenty year lease agreement with the city of Atlanta for its airport. That lease agreement also stipulated that the city of Atlanta could not operate a second airport. These agreements create a significant barrier to entry for competitors seeking to gain a foothold at major airports. If a competitor can't access a gate, it can't compete for a slot. Airports are also limited by government regulations that make expanding difficult. To build new runways or terminals, airports must submit environmental reviews to the FAA. This process can easily be weaponized to delay airport construction. Across the country, environmental activists filed lawsuits using the National Environmental Policy Act to delay these new projects. These regulations act as a constraint, which in turn limits the airline's ability to expand and compete. Finally, like domestic ocean shipping, the United States reserves domestic air transportation only to its U. S. Air carriers. This practice, known as cabotage, creates significant tension between protecting our domestic airlines and promoting competition. As these examples show, the government is still heavily involved in the airline industry. Consumers deserve a system where airlines compete freely and can innovate and grow, not a system where the government consistently puts its thumb on the scale to foreclose competition. Government imposed barriers destroyed competition, leaving consumers worse off. The most recent example of this was the proposed In twenty twenty three, the Biden-Harris DOJ sued to block the proposed three point eight billion dollar merger. The DOJ claimed the merger would remove spirit from the market and reduce competition. At the time, the proposed merger would have created the fifth largest airline domestically, with ten percent market share and increased competition against the big four. However, one year later, a federal judge in Massachusetts sided Spirit later filed for bankruptcy twice and ultimately shut down operations in May of this year. The blocked merger of Spirit Jet Blue offers a cautionary tale about government over-regulation. By blocking the transaction, regulators prevented the market from testing whether a strong competitor could emerge to challenge the industry's largest incumbents. At a minimum, the case demonstrates the importance of ensuring that antitrust promotes competition rather than merely preserving the status quo. As Congress evaluates the future of the airline industry, we should remain mindful of the lessons of deregulation. Competition, not heavy-handed regulation, has been the primary driver of lower fares, greater consumer choice, and increased innovation. In the words of the Airline Deregulation Act, the airline industry needs a "maximum reliance on competitive market forces." Our goal should be to remove unnecessary barriers to entry, encourage robust competition, and ensure that consumers, not regulators, are the ultimate beneficiaries of airline policy. I look forward to today's discussion. I now recognize uh Miss Balint for an opening statement.

Rep. Balint (VT)12:26 – 18:06

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning. Uh, clearly we could not see things more differently. It's no secret that flying has gotten worse over the years. Tickets cost more, more flights are canceled, and everything from seat selection to carry-ons are now perks that you get to pay for. This is the predictable result of a market that has been allowed to consolidate for over sixty years, and an administration that continues to prioritize the demands of huge corporations at the cost of everyday Americans. Americans were promised that consolidation would produce a more reliable, efficient, and affordable aviation system. It has done the opposite. Flyers face new and rising fees, fewer alternatives, no bargaining power, and increasing barriers barriers to affordable travel. In nineteen sixty, before deregulation, Americans had forty major airline carriers to choose from. Today, just four airlines control over two-thirds, two-thirds of the domestic passenger market. We went from forty to four. That is not competition. At the same time, airline executives argue that further consolidation is necessary to address the industry's challenges. So it was shocking to hear United Airlines, the fourth largest airline in the U S, float a merger with American Airlines, the second largest carrier. The combined United American airline would control thirty-four percent of the domestic market. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy called the proposal, quote, " interesting." This is alarming. We need to get back to antitrust enforcement on the merits. For instance, in twenty twenty-four, Democrats blocked the Spirit jet blue merger because evidence showed it would raise fares by up to forty percent on dozens of routes. We knew it would cause harm to consumers who could least afford it, and even a Reagan-appointed federal judge agreed. Spirit is gone now, not because of antitrust enforcement. Spirit is gone because of the massive spike in jet fuel costs that are a direct result of President Trump's unconstitutional war with Iran. Even the Spirit CEO said that fuel prices were the biggest factor in closing the airline. President Trump's war of choice has made it all worse. Jet fuel prices have roughly doubled since the beginning of this war. Airlines are passing that burden directly down to passengers through higher fares, more fees, and new fuel surcharges. Americans never agreed to this war, and that's why I introduced a War Powers Resolution to end it, because Congress, not the President, has the constitutional authority to take this country into a military conflict. This unauthorized, uncalled-for war is causing a rolling series of financial blows to Americans across this country. Americans have spent nearly four hundred and fifty dollars more on fuel-related expenses just since February. At the grocery store, food prices have gone up more than three percent since last year. At the airport, fares are up more than twenty percent in just four months. It's the same shock to the system over and over, coming from every direction. For a country our size, flying is not a perk. It is how families see each other. It's how small business owners reach their customers. It's how a Vermont student gets home from college. And when the cost of flying goes up, it does not just inconvenience people, it cuts them off from what has become a necessity in this country. Instead of addressing this rapidly consolidating industry that is squeezing consumers, this administration has spent the last year pandering to the interests of their wealthy friends. The Biden Department of Transportation required airlines to provide cash refunds when customers were owed. And airlines had to disclose all fees up front. Those policies were rolled back by the Trump DOT. These rules were estimated to save consumers more than half a billion dollars a year. Major airlines and their trade associations spent millions lobby- lobbying this administration in the first nine years, excuse me, the first nine months of twenty twenty five to get these key consumer protections cut. So it's no surprise that the current Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, was an airline lobbyist before he took his current job. Members of Congress have pushed for an investigation into whether Duffy continues to improperly favor the interests of the industry that he used to represent. Working families across this country deserve so much better than this. Entry Trust laws are supposed to make sure the markets work for us. Americans need to know that antitrust enforcement decisions will be based on law, evidence, and the interests of regular people, not political access, backroom discussions, or the preferences of powerful corporations. Americans simply want choices. We don't want a handful of companies to control and limit our freedom of choice. And we don't want a federal government that approves consolidation because its corporate and political allies want it to. They are the reasons why I will not stop stressing the importance of good rule of law antitrust enforcement and I will keep pressing the current administration on their perversion of this critical tool for consumer protection. Thank you and I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)18:07 – 18:17

And I'll let he yields back. Uh, while we wait for Chairman Jordan to arrive, um, I will now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mister Raskin, for his opening statement.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)18:17 – 24:42

Thank you, Mister Chairman, and thanks to all of our witnesses for joining us today. Spirit Airlines was once the nation's leading ultra-low-cost carrier and one of the strongest forces in the economy, holding down ticket prices for consumers. It's now collapsed. And we cannot have a serious conversation about the demise of Spirit without talking about the obvious main culprit, the president's disastrous and illegal war in Iran. The Iran war has not only cost the lives thirteen American service members and thousands of Iranian civilians, including hundreds of children. It has cost American taxpayers more than a hundred billion dollars and it's cost American consumers more than sixty billion dollars and increased fuel costs alone which averages to more than four hundred and seventy dollars per American household. It also caused the cost of jet fuel to double overnight, forcing Spirit to take on an extra one hundred million dollars in unexpected costs in just a couple of months for an ultra-low-cost carrier like Spirit, which operates on thin margins to deliver the best value to customers, that was a corporate death sentence. As Spirit Airlines explained in its legal filings, the company went under because quote "recent geopolitical events have resulted in a massive and sustained increase in fuel prices." But desperate to avoid any mention of Donald Trump's calamitous and historic blunder in Iran, which has split the Republican Party, my colleagues today have decided instead, somewhat comically, to blame overzealous antitrust enforcement. Americans are paying more today for groceries, gasoline, health care, housing, utilities, and, yes, airfare. At the same time, a vanishingly small number of companies is thriving. Consider the S and P five hundred, the stock market index of five hundred publicly traded U. S. companies. Last month the Financial Times published an analysis, an analysis showing that just five of those five hundred companies or one percent accounted for fifty percent of the growth of the index. In the airline industry, the story of lopsided growth and economic contra- concentration is the same. In two thousand, the four largest carriers controlled roughly sixty percent of domestic traffic. Today, they control about eighty percent. One merger after another has consolidated the market power of the four major airlines, American, Delta, Southwest and United. The result? Higher prices, lower wages, growing profits. Protecting competition requires regulators willing to say no to corporate consolidation. Twenty twenty three, the DOJ blocked JetBlue's attempted acquisition of Spirit. The result? Spirit continued to operate as an ultra-low-cost airline, offering consumers lower prices than competitor airlines, in driving down the price of tickets on competitors. Economists called this, quote, " the spirit effect". When an ultra-low-cost airline like Spirit operates a route, the price of tickets on legacy carriers like American drops by an average of twenty-one percent. As Judge Young, the Reagan-appointed judge who upheld the DOJ decision to block the Spirit-JetBlue merger, explained, quote, "If JetBlue were permitted to gobble up Spirit, at least as proposed, It would eliminate one of the airline industry's few primary competitors that provides unique innovation and price discipline. It would further consolidate an oligopoly by immediately doubling JetBlue's stakeholder size in the industry. Worse yet, the merger would likely incentivize JetBlue further to abandon its roots as a maverick low-cost carrier. DOJ's actions in twenty twenty three protected consumers from increased costs by focusing airlines to continue competing with Spirit in its ultra-low airfares until skyrocketing prices caused by Trump's disastrous war in Iran, caused the airline to collapse. Yet our colleagues have taken the wrong lesson from this story, claiming we need less antitrust enforcement rather than more. This is alarming because under the Trump administration, antitrust enforcement has already been twisted and corrupted beyond recognition. Instead of being a tool to protect competition and innovation and to prevent companies from abusing their market power over consumers, and workers it's become just one more grift perpetrated by the president and his enablers for their own purposes of wealth maximization. Antitrust practitioners talk about a trump transaction tax, the recognition that merger approval depends less on objective considerations um and competition factors and more on a company's willingness to curry subjective political and financial favor with the president and the money-making operation being conducted at the White House. The warning signs of gangster state crony capitalism are everywhere. In the last twelve months, this administration has cleared the Nextar-Tegna local broadcast merger, which will undermine the diversity of independently owned news operations, in which a coalition of state AGs has already obtained a preliminary injunction to halt. It has settled the Live Nation ticket master case with terms so favorable to Live Live Nation that the basic sweeping harms to artists, venues and millions of fans remained largely unaddressed. It cleared the paramount Skydance Warner Brothers discovery deal before career investigators had even completed their antitrust analysis. And every senior antitrust official who has cried foul over this pattern of concentration including Assistant Attorney General Gil Slater at Department of Justice and her Principal Deputy Attorney General, Roger Alford, has been pushed out or fired for the offense of simply doing their jobs the jobs they signed up to do and which the law requires of them. The consequences of this anti-anti-trust, corruption, and pro-monopoly favoritism are simple. Corporations pass the Trump tax onto consumers. We pay higher prices for fewer choices, less competition, less innovation, more instability. Instead of concocting a cover story for the president, which blames Biden for the disastrous consequences of the Trump tariff and the Trump war in Iran, we should be doing serious oversight of an antitrust antitrust enforcement system that has been thoroughly smashed up in this administration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)24:43 – 27:00

The chairman yields back. Without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's witnesses. The Honorable Chris Sununu. Mr. Sununu is the President and CEO of Airlines for America. a trade association of US-based passenger and cargo airlines. He previously served as the governor of New Hampshire and as a member of the executive council of New Hampshire, and worked as an environmental engineer. Mister Timothy Ravitch. Mister Ravitch is a senior counsel at Tressler, where his practice focuses on aviation, aerospace, airport and commercial litigation. He previously was the general counsel of an unmanned aerial systems company. has led research on matters affecting airspace operations and safety for the National Science Foundation and the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine, and is an author of an aviation law textbook. Mister Christian Stout, Mister Stout is Director of Innovation Policy at the International Center for Law and Economics, where his work focuses on competition, telecommunications and artificial intelligence policy. He previously worked as an attorney Taught computer science at Rutgers University and held various roles at technology companies. Professor Nancy Rose. Miss Rose is the Charles P. Kindelberger Professor of Applied Economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She previously served as the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for Economic Analysis in the DOJ's antitrust division from two thousand fourteen to two thousand sixteen. We welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing today. We will be swearing you in at this point. Would you please rise and raise your right hand? Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge information and belief? So help you God. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you. Please be seated. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes. Governor Sununu, you may begin.

Chris Sununu (Witness)27:01 – 31:37

Well, good morning. Thank you very much. Great to see everybody. Chairman Fitzgerald, Ranking Mer- Member Boleyn, uh, members of the subcommittee, I see Chairman uh Jordan has joined us as well. Uh, my name is Chris Sununu. I'm currently the President and CEO of Airlines for America. Thank you for inviting me today to testify on behalf of the airline industry. a sector that does support millions of US jobs and drives five percent of our country's GDP. So when examining the state of the airline industry, the defining story over the past two decades is the extensive expansion of consumer choice and travel options. That continues despite significant headwind headwinds the industry has faced particularly over the last eight months. First, we were hit hard by two record-long government-driven shutdowns, which cost the airline's billions and the broader economy billions more. forced flight delays and cancellations, all over political fights that have absolutely nothing to do with our industry and hurt the American traveler. Also, the increase in jet fuel prices due to the closure of the Strait of Hermes means that airlines will take an additional financial hit of more than eight billion dollars this year and it's aggressive competi- it it is aggressive competition that prevents airlines from passing all those costs on to the consumers. Despite these hurdles, the airline industry remains a highly dynamic marketplace, where travelers enjoy a suite of fare options and unprecedented fle flexibility in how they choose to fly. A major catalyst for the for this variety has been the dramatic expansion of airline business models. Twenty-five years ago, about sixty percent of domestic passengers had access to low and lower-cost carriers. These days that has soared to ninety percent. And today the average number of competitors on domestic routes, it sits at an all-time high with nearly half of all passengers Traveling in markets with four or more airline choices. The that range of options has never before existed for the American traveler. It does today. At a time when Americans have spent the last several years facing runaway inflation on basic household good goods competitive airline pricing has bucked that trend. Between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty five, everyday consumer products rose by twenty six percent, domestic airfares fell three and a half percent. Travelers are no longer forced into a one size fits all ticket. They have the freedom to customize their journey and pay only for the services that they value. And the number of Americans flying is greater than ever before. In the seventies, about one in five Americans took a flight on any given year. Today it's about one in two. Airlines continue to prove themselves as an affordability success story for the American public. The best part is that according to the April two thousand twenty six ASCI survey, airlines are doing all of this with all-time high in customer satisfaction. And the recent Spirit Airlines bankruptcy, as unfortunate as that was, was just the first airline bankruptcy in the past thirteen years, indicating stability for both our workforce and networks. Airlines have actively used that stability to reinvest over twenty-four billion dollars annually, every year, back into that customer experience, the people, the product, the planes. And the upgraded products we invest in, include everything from upgraded WiFi and apps that give more control to the customer, to better airports, better food, faster TSA screening, the list goes on and on in terms of customer experience. And most importantly, airlines have invested in their people, doubling the average wages and benefits since two thousand twenty-five, far outpacing most any other industry in this country. Now, given this robust state of competition, it's clear that the biggest threat to healthy and competitive airline industry It's our short-staffed and woefully antiquated air traffic control system. Policymakers can enhance competition not by over-regulating an already very competitive industry but by focusing on building a new air traffic control system that'll be safer allow for more flights and increase choice for the consumer. Congress must build upon its twelve point five billion dollar down payment toward air traffic control modernization with the next round of funding to ensure that technology gaps that have been completely ignored for the last thirty years, that they finally get addressed. Air traffic modernization is one of the few policies that enjoys bipartisan, bicameral support, as well as the support of the nearly sixty member Modern Skies coalition, consisting of stakeholder organizations across the entire country. The American traveler needs Congress to support policies that allow this competitive marketplace to thrive, prevents additional cost to the consumers, and ensures we continue to invest in the safest airspace in the world. Thank you very much. Look forward to the questions.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)31:38 – 31:42

Thank you, Governor. Mister Ravitch, we now go to you for your five minutes.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)31:42 – 35:54

Good morning, Chairman Fitzgerald, Ranking Member Ballant, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation and the privilege to speak with you today. As you heard from the kind introduction, my name is Tim Ravitch, I'm a Florida Bar Board Certified Lawyer, working currently with Tressler LLP, which is a law firm in Chicago. President Reagan once said that the nine most terrifying words in the English language are " I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Yet one of the most important deregulatory reforms in American history was championed by Senator Edward Kennedy during the Ford administration, and signed into law by President Jimmy Carter. Airline deregulation was a bipartisan effort. That spirit remains relevant today. We might agree that not every market shortcoming requires a regulatory intervention. Regulation provides benefits. It also carries costs. Aviation depends on both competition and regulation. The title of today's hearing, the Thirty Thousand Foot View, Competition and Regulation, in the US airline industry makes this point, and I think well. Every day millions of passengers and tons of cargo travel around the United States safely and efficiently. The overwhelming majority of trips occur without incident. The success is easy to overlook. In the nearly fifty years since enactment of the Airline Deregulation Act, passenger traffic has increased exponentially. Airfares have declined. Air travel is available to far more Americans than it was before deregulation. During the Senate hearings on airline deregulation decades ago, Senator Kennedy recalled an East Boston constituent who asked why he was holding the hearings about airlines when he had never been able to afford to fly. Kennedy replied, quote, "That's why I'm holding the hearings." I often think of that story when I teach aviation law. At the start of each semester, I ask my students whether they have ever flown on a commercial airline. Every hand goes up. In fact, it may be the only time all semester that happens, but many seem surprised by the question itself. Of course they have flown. That reaction says a great deal about how much aviation has changed over the last half century and how competition has expanded access to air transportation for millions of Americans. As titled, this hearing focuses on the right issue. When is regulation necessary versus when markets should work freely. The competition questions today are different from those Congress confronted in nineteen seventy eight. Competition today is often shaped less by fares and routes than by access, capacity, market concentration, and mergers. These issues deserve attention. But many competition decisions in commercial aviation occur not in the air but on the ground, at airports. A carrier cannot compete without access. Access to gate matters. Access to terminal matters. Infrastructure matters. Competition also requires capacity. No airline can compete with a flight it cannot schedule. And no new entrant can compete without access to gates, terminals, and airport infrastructure. The same is true in the national airspace system. Airlines can only compete through flights they are able to schedule and operate. Discussions about air traffic control, modernization, and capacity are therefore also discussions about competition. Recent litigation involving the proposed acquisition of spared airlines by JetBlue Airways illustrates another challenge. Competition policy often requires regulators and courts to predict future markets and future competitors. Those predictions are not always easy. As we approach the fiftieth anniversary of the Airline Deregulation Act, the central question before this body is whether and how regulatory law can best encourage competition innovation and new entry. That question extends beyond today's airline industry. Drones are here. Flying taxis, referred to as advanced air mobility, are on the horizon. Commercial space transportation is a reality. The issues we will discuss today, access, competition, infrastructure, resource allocation, and yes, regulation, will influence and are precedential as our nation explores the next frontiers in transportation. I look forward to discussing these matters and answering the subcommittee's questions. Thank you.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)35:54 – 35:56

Thank you, Mr. Ravitch. Mr. Stout, you may begin.

Kristian Stout (Witness)35:57 – 39:59

Chairman, Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee, good morning. Thank you for having me. I am the Director of Innovation Policy at the International Center for Law and Economics and my work focus is on how law and regulation shapes competition. I have filed a longer written statement, so let me make one central point and give three examples. My central point is this. Many of the most important barriers to airline competition arise from policy choices, not from the airlines themselves. The most pro-competitive thing this Congress can do is to clear policy bottlenecks, not pile on new ones. My first example is Spirit. In January twenty twenty four, federal court blocked the JetBlue Spirit merger to protect competition. The government won the case and then it lost the carrier. Spirit went bankrupt twice and shut down this May, a thirty four year old airline gone, and with it the Spirit effect, the downward pressure its low fares put on every competitor in the market. I am not here to say the Justice Department killed Spirit by itself. An engine inspection crisis, high fuel costs, and the big carriers copying Spirit's The point is narrower. The legal framework was too static for a visibly fragile firm in a capital intensive industry. And it failed in two ways that I think are worth your attention. First, the court itself found that a stronger JetBlue would have competed harder against the big four carriers that fly most Americans a benefit to the broad flying public but under the old any market analysis of cases like Philadelphia National Bank and Topco harm to the most price sensitive travelers on a handful of routes control the entire outcome, no matter how large the nationwide benefit. The court blocked a merger it appeared to regard as good for competition overall. To preserve root-level rivalry, the market then itself erased. Second, the failing firm defense asks a yes or no question. Is the company about to collapse with no possible buyer? Spirit could not meet that strict test in early twenty twenty four, so the court treated it as a healthy, durable competitor that would keep disciplining affairs indefinitely. Eighteen months later, it was liquidated. That is the flaw. In a capital-intensive industry, shock-prone, the real question is not whether a carrier has already failed, but how likely it is to still be competing in five or ten years from now. Merger analysis for network industries needs a probability-weighted view of a firm's durability and consistent credit for out-of-market benefits. My second example is airport slots. At the most congested airports, the FAA rations every take-off and landing through slots. Decades ago, those slots were handed to incumbent carriers for free and locked in by grandfather rights. They function as property in a sense, bought, sold, and pledged as collateral worth tens of millions of dollars. Yet a new airline cannot simply decide to add service. And use it or lose it rules push carriers to fly near empty ghost flights, just to keep their slots. Where a low fare entry is actually allowed, fares fall about seventeen percent. The FAA already waives these rules at times so it plainly has the power to move toward real slot markets. My third example is the accumulation of consumer protection mandates. Let me be clear first, I am not against protecting consumers. But airlines run on operational flexibility, the freedom to cancel, swap aircraft, re-book passengers when weather and mechanical problems hit. Every mandate that turns a judgment call into a legal obligation, converts a manageable risk into a fixed cost. A wave of recent rules like automatic cash refunds, a proposed European-style compensation regime, free family seating, new fee disclosure requirements, each of these hits hardest at the unbundled uh ancillary revenue model that lets budget carriers like Spirit operate flexibly. For a legacy airline like uh U- like United or American, any one of these is a friction. For an ultra-low cost carrier on razor-thin margins, the pile-up of these mandates can become fatal. And the Fifth Circuit has already held that one of these rules likely exceeds the department's legal authority a question squarely within the subcommittee's jurisdiction. So my recommendations come down to discipline and humility. Modernize merger analysis for network industries, open underused slots to new entrants, and put every operational mandate through rigorous cost-benefit review tied to a real demonstrated problem. The competition we are missing in the industry is mostly for a close upstream, by runways that the government rations, by capital that it walls off, and by mandates that fall hardest on the carriers least able to bear them. Spirits, empty gates, are a reminder that preserving a competitor on paper is no substitute for letting competition work in fact. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)40:01 – 40:04

Thank you, Mr. Stout. We now recognize Professor Rose.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)40:05 – 45:08

Chairman, ranking members and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify. forty years studying competition, antitrust and regulation, including in the airline industry, and has served as the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for Economic Analysis in the antitrust division. I'd like to make three points, drawing from my written testimony today. First, antitrust did not kill Spirit Airlines. Let me say that again because I think you've heard the opposite alleged. Antitrust did not kill Spirit. Spirit's own leadership, as you've heard, identified the cause as sudden sustained spike in jet fuel prices due to the Iran war, that added hundreds of millions of dollars in costs. Instead, antitrust kept Spirit flying two years longer than if JetBlue had been allowed to complete its merger and eliminate Cons- Spirit's consumer-friendly pricing. That mattered not only to Spirit passengers but to everyone who flies. Spirit, as you've heard, pioneered the ultra-low-cost carrier model in this country, and its presence on a route forced other airlines to lower their fares, often by ten to twenty percent or more, what's been called the Spirit effect. For many travelers, Spirit was not a preference, it was the only air travel they could afford. As one Spirit customer recently put it, " We don't fly Spirit because we're cheap, we fly Spirit because we're broke." JetBlue never intended to preserve that model. Its own deal modeling removed seats, repainted the planes, and increased fares by thirty percent. As you've heard after hearing that - that evidence, Judge Young found Spirit to be a uniquely disruptive competitor, important to a particular um, segment of cost-conscious customers and he blocked the deal. That was not overreach. That was the Clayton Act working as Congress intended. Nor was this a failing firm case. The parties did not mount that defense at trial. SPIRIT's executives testified that the company had a plan to return to profitability. It's difficult to predict the future, but they had a plan. And there had been another bitter frontier that management preferred because it recognized The frontier would preserve the ultra-low-cost carrier model without the antitrust risk that JetBlue's offer presented. So when people argue that DOJ should have waved the deal through because Spirit was failing or flailing we need to recognize the danger in that argument it would encourage stronger rivals to rough up competitors and buy them out precisely when consumers most need those competitors to survive. Second, this is not just about airlines. Competition concerns in the airline industry are a window into a much larger problem. Across the economy, consolidation has often left families with fewer choices and higher prices. Four firms dominate cattle buying in the U S, leaving many ranchers with only a handful of buyers and fourth of July hosts paying more for the burgers that they're grilling. Three pharmacy benefit managers control nearly eighty percent of U S prescriptions. Their integration with insurers and pharmacies have forced higher prices throughout the system. Hospital systems have merged and then bought up physician practices, And recent research finds that those acquisitions raise physician prices by fifteen percent with no clear improvement in quality. These are pocketbook issues, what families pay for groceries, medicine, or a doctor's visit. Strong evidence-based antitrust enforcement is one of the tools that we have to keep competition in prices affordable, as did the FTC and a bipartisan group of state AGs when they successfully blocked the Kroger-Albertsons, uh, supermarket merger. Third, antitrust must remain vigilant and independent. When I was at the antitrust division, every new employee heard the same message on day one and repeated often, antitrust is law enforcement. We call balls and strikes based on the evidence, not on personal preferences, political pressure, or who has access in Washington. But that principle has been under strain. In the last year we've seen a very troubling pattern, senior of antitrust officials fired after privately to an inadequate settlement forced from above, the president personally weighing in to support a media merger, um an obstination case against Live Nation secretly settled mid-trial by senior DOJ officials and White House counsel on terms so favorable that Live Nation's share price popped six percent on the announcement. Fortunately in that case, attorney generals from thirty-three states in the district leapt in to assume the litigation lead and kept the trial moving forward to a jury that found for the plaintiffs, on every claim. From the outside, it looks like there's a justice for sale sign hanging on the fifth floor of the RFK building. That should alarm us all, regardless of our party or our ideology. When companies believe that they can buy an outcome in Washington instead of competing on the merits, we all lose. And when antitrust becomes a tool of political favor or disfavor, the predictable environment that businesses need to invest is undermined. Surely we can find bipartisan support for rigorous, evidence-based, politically independent antitrust enforcement that protects the American consumer, the American worker, honest businesses, and the competitive process itself.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)45:09 – 45:16

Thank you, Professor. We'll now proceed under the five-minute rule with questions. First, recognize the gentleman from California, Mister Eissa, for five minutes.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)45:16 – 45:56

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Professor Rose, uh, notwithstanding political comments you made at the end of your opening statement. As a professor, would you say that the number one challenge that creates an antitrust situation is not lack of competition but a lack or b- uh some- sorry but is the in fact barrier to entry. In other words, if if someone begins to assert some benefit from a monopoly or near monopoly, it is in fact the barrier to entry that keeps others from coming in, whatever that barrier is. Is that a basic principle of economics and antitrust?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)45:57 – 45:59

I teach my students that there are three issues

Rep. Issa (CA-48)45:59 – 46:01

Ma'am, that was a yes or no, if you don't mind.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)46:01 – 46:02

Um, that no.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)46:02 – 46:56

Oh, okay. Mister Stauff, I'm gonna go for a differing opinion. Um, the the fact that uh spirits gates are all being sold off to competitors is that in fact by definition as great or greater a barrier to entry than in fact the consolidation under the previously asked for one or the other mergers would have been, meaning that the gates that were not shared, the gates that were expanded, the ability of - and we'll just take JetBlue as the example - those gates were a major factor, not the aircraft, not the pilots, all of which are important, But ultimately, access to routes and bases and operations, in fact, are sometimes the hardest to get at the most desirable airports. Isn't that true?

Kristian Stout (Witness)46:56 – 46:58

From my understanding, that's correct.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)46:58 – 47:31

And so, as we're looking at antitrust relative to aviation, and I'm gonna go to the governor in a moment, we are looking at whether the opportunity for competition is there, every bit as much as the professor's narrow theory that a entity that was losing money because they said we'd like to turn around, we we hope to turn around, we have a plan to turn around, somehow was a a perfectly good reason to take a money-losing airline and not sell it to an airline that might in the combination make money.

Kristian Stout (Witness)47:32 – 47:42

I- is your question is uh allowing competitors to enter, would that have helped offset some of the concerns about that transaction? Is that correct?

Rep. Issa (CA-48)47:42 – 47:42

Correct.

Kristian Stout (Witness)47:42 – 47:43

I believe that's correct.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)47:43 – 48:13

Secondly, on your opening statement you you said something I think that was very profound. Every time we in Washington or our agencies create new rules, new nice-to-have, socially interesting and responsible rules, we do not disfavor the large airlines. We in fact hurt the very entities like Sprint that wanna offer a low budget and do not necessarily have the means of a United or American. Is that correct?

Kristian Stout (Witness)48:13 – 48:14

Yes, I believe that is correct.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)48:14 – 49:00

Thank you. Governor, more welcome. For more than twelve years, you led a a state successfully. You're now looking at a myriad of companies that are struggling against international competition. Now, I this is an antitrust hearing, and we will we will focus on that more than anything else today. If in fact the relevant market are the domestic airlines, the four plus a plethora of smaller airlines, and we ignore global giants, including ones backed by their governments, do we in fact almost guarantee the demise of the US-based airline industry as we know it?

Chris Sununu (Witness)49:00 – 49:25

You absolutely have to keep in mind that uh w- when you look at the worldwide market, you have so many actors out there that are state-sponsored, they're state-supported, state-subsidized. They they aren't free markets and uh again to um ignore that fact on a competitive basis would definitely be to our to our demise we are competing against entire governments as as individual airlines we're effectively competing against the financial wherewithal of entire of entire governments.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)49:26 – 49:53

Now I'm gonna touch on the same subject that I didn't get the answer I wanted from the professor on. If we, the federal government, using our ability to lean into expanding routes, modernization, uh, and places to put the aircraft when they're on the ground. If we modernize that and make there more of them available, will we inherently give an ability for entrance to new and competitive airlines?

Chris Sununu (Witness)49:54 – 50:05

Absolutely. I, I think Breeze is a good example. I don't represent Breeze, but Breeze is a fairly new airline, uh, opening up by gates that might not be traditional airports, but gate access and slot access and com- competition there is very important.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)50:06 – 50:26

Thank you. Mister Stout, with the remaining time, should this committee look at referring to the other committees of jurisdiction, the idea that we do lean into that and we also uh look at the barriers created by over-regulation maybe even a two-tier system to to allow smaller airlines to waive those large mandates.

Kristian Stout (Witness)50:26 – 50:32

I think that's right. I think if we find ways to introduce markets into slot access that we could have a lot of pro-competitive benefits.

Rep. Issa (CA-48)50:32 – 50:33

Thank you. I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)50:33 – 50:39

Gentleman yields back and I'll recognize the ranking number of the full committee, Mister Raskin again for five minutes.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)50:39 – 50:46

Mister Chairman, thanks much. Um, Professor Rose, um, as a professor, you give grades, right?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)50:47 – 50:47

I do.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)50:48 – 50:53

What grade would you give the antitrust enforcers in the Trump administration today?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)50:54 – 50:55

I would have to fail them.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)50:56 – 50:58

So what letter grade would that be?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)50:59 – 50:59

F.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)51:00 – 51:01

Give them an F?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)51:01 – 51:05

I do. I don't give that very often at MIT, but in this case I think it's fully merited.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)51:06 – 51:09

So w- and and so wha- what's your justification for that?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)51:09 – 51:24

That we no longer have an antitrust enforcement agency at the Department of Justice that's based on principles of evidence. It seems instead to be based on principles of either who has the the administration's ear or their their willingness to pay.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)51:24 – 51:28

So it's a game of political influence rather than objective economic factors.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)51:28 – 51:30

As an outsider, it appears to be the case.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)51:31 – 51:57

I saw an article a couple days ago in the Wall Street Journal, uh, titled " They can't fly Spirit anymore, so they're taking the bus instead." Um, it reported that Greyhound and other bus services saw passenger traffic increase thirty percent on the one hundred and thirty routes that they had shared with Spirit. So what does that surge in bus travel say about the importance that

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)52:01 – 52:19

I think that's exactly what I alluded to in my testimony, that Spirit is was really focused in this model of stripping down fares to be the lowest possible and other airlines, while they're making inroads into that, do not have the same impact. So many passengers who flew on Spirit could not afford the higher fares at other airlines. As a consequence,

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)52:19 – 52:19

So

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)52:20 – 52:23

they're either not flying or uh not flying or or or not making the trip.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)52:22 – 52:27

So w- w- uh are you basically saying that the combination of terribly foolish

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)52:47 – 52:49

I think it's definitely contributing to it.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)52:52 – 52:57

What are some of the problems associated with high levels of concentration and consolidation?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)52:58 – 53:27

So, particularly when consolidation or concentration happens because you're buying up your competitors, you tend to see higher prices, lower quality, less choice for consumers. Um, and I think that follow- flows right through to pocketbook issues that households are facing. On the same - at the same time you may see also workers have less, um, ability to c- to - to, um, compete for - for their services with employers, and so you can also see wages going down. Um, and workers have less choice.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)53:26 – 53:37

So can you can you explain that a little bit further? I think people understand why the diminished competition is terrible for consumers but how do workers in the industry suffer from that kind of, economic concentration?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)53:37 – 53:53

So, let's say we've got three employers right now that are are possible options for someone with my s- particular skill set. If we allow a merger between two of those, now I've only got two choices, the employers recognize that reduced competition, they don't have to compete as hard to get me to work for them, they don't have to pay me as much.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)53:53 – 54:17

Hmm. um, the the parties um justified the the merger uh is needed to allow them to compete better with the big four airlines. And some written testimony argues for antitrust giving these cross-market efficiencies weight in making antitrust decisions. Can you explain in simple terms what this is and whether or not you support that analysis?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)54:17 – 55:06

Yeah, I think it's a backdoor way to reintroduce the Borkian argument the arguments Robert Bork made, which was to try and broaden the the spectrum so large, so wide, that you couldn't really enforce the antitrust laws effectively. What it's saying is we might have some consumers who benefit and some who are harmed by the merger, and instead of recognizing that the antitrust laws say a merger's illegal if it substantially reduces competition in any relevant market, we should say, well, don't worry about those consumers that are being harmed. They're they're not able to pay very much for their airfare anyway, they don't have very much income, they don't have very much demand. let's instead protect the business travelers who would like to have the the kind of expanded JetBlue options. It's an argument you could make. It's not what our current antitrust system says, and I think it would be an enormous mistake to go to that.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)55:06 – 55:20

So, what would you say up until now the major uh antitrust decisions have been by the Trump DOJ officials who you graded F, um, and what are the specific effects of those decisions?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)55:21 – 55:52

Well, we've seen we're seeing consolidation in media markets, both um take Paramount, Skydance, which has just been cleared, but also these local broadcast stations. That's going to increase advertising rates, it's going to reduce the diversity of views, it's going to um uh make it more difficult for - for local broadcasters to - to um - to sustain newsrooms. I think that's gonna be a cost both in terms of the information that we have, and in terms of the people who work in that market. Um, and in terms of people who are who are looking to that for their news and their,

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)55:49 – 55:49

Yeah.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)55:52 – 56:10

um, and their information content. Um, in, um, in other markets like the, um, Ticketmaster, uh, the Live Nation, um, Ticketmaster monopolization case, we're gonna see s- continued, um, uh, um, abuse of consumers and - and higher fees.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)56:08 – 56:11

Yeah. Gentlemen s-

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)56:11 – 56:12

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)56:13 – 56:17

Uh, gentleman yields back, now recognized gentleman from North Carolina for five minutes.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)56:18 – 56:59

Thank you, Mister Chairman, and I thank all of you on the panel for being here today. Uh, Governor Sununu, thank you for coming to testify today, and I wanna take just a moment to talk about the uh past interactions Congress has had with the airline industry. And we've already touched on it this morning that Congress passed the Deregulation Act in nineteen seventy eight. And the goal was free up the airline industry from the burdensome, inefficient government boards that dictated the fares, routes, and and new entry to the market. I'd really like to know from your experience, how did the Airline Deregulation Act change the way in your mind that the airline industry is regulated and how did that deregulation really benefit customers?

Chris Sununu (Witness)56:59 – 57:22

Well, again, it it opens up a true free market, as opposed to having the government decide what the fares are gonna be and, and, you know, who can have what routes. And free market competition works without a doubt. And, and the the uh proof in that is just let's go to pricing, I'm a big believer that nothing shows competition more than the price. So in in the late seventies, uh, let's call it what it was. Basically, rich white people could fly in a plane, right?

Rep. Harris (NC-8)57:22 – 57:22

Mm.

Chris Sununu (Witness)57:22 – 58:42

Today, almost any American through a variety of different ways can afford to fly from point A to point B. We have ultra low cost carriers, we have multiple routes, we have more competition if you wanna go to w- And and that's the other definition of competition that's very important here. It's not just the overall number of carriers. It's when I go to buy a ticket, oh, I have four or five or six carriers going from Wichita, to Dallas, so now they're all competing on that exact same route, and we have more uh competition per route than ever before. And that is allowed now, right? Because they can compete freely and it's not the government saying, well you're gonna go here and you're gonna go there. So on pricing alone it has been a game-changer, on low income and everyday Americans it's been a an absolute game-changer, on the ability for the airlines themselves to create their own models. Uh, w- you know, one of the challenges I would say that Spirit has, they had a lot of challenges and there's a lot of reasons Spirit went bankrupt, but One of the challenges was, you know, some of the bigger carriers said, you know, we're gonna compete, we're gonna provide a basic economy ticket that we didn't provide before, at a very low cost level. And the government does doesn't get involved in the economics of that to provide more options so it isn't just one carrier for low income families or folks that don't have you know don't have none of the money to spend the extra for the extra frills. So more carriers were competing at a lower cost level. That's all because of the deregulation opportunities that came from the late seventies.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)58:42 – 58:59

So, uh, in that same vein, in what ways would you say, I know part of this hearing is looking at when to regulate and when not to regulate or de-regulate. In what ways do you think Congress, maybe specifically, could further de-regulate the airline industry in order to benefit the consumers?

Chris Sununu (Witness)58:57 – 1:00:12

I I think, yeah, I think one area where the airlines have taken a a clear position, first the airlines do a lot for their customers, right? They they put over a billion dollars of their own money in compensation. They already have massive refund policies, and please understand, uh your flight didn't take off, you get your money back, and compensation, which is like the punitive penalty. Um you know the airlines in in some of the regulatory um uh proposals that ha- we've seen in the past basically said we're gonna penalize you for acts of God. The there there's a huge weather storm, the plane didn't take off, you now have to provide not just a refund but compensation on top of that, right? Um an airline wanted to change their their tail number for a certain reason, oh that's a canceled flight. No, the the flight isn't canceled, we're just changing tail number. Nope, the previous administration said no, that's gonna be a can count against you as a. So it's things that are out of our control, which then burden us, which ultimately, those costs probably get passed down to the consumer. Um, that's that's been been the hardest part. We're an industry that has an average profit margin of four and a half percent. Uh, every doll, virtually every doll of the airlines may go back into airports and better products and all that sort of thing. So additional regulation, right, there's all regul- uh, some regulations have value, all regulations have cost.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)1:00:12 – 1:00:12

Right.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:00:12 – 1:00:24

Right? And so you have to understand the - the kind of the pros and the cons there, and those costs ultimately unfortunately would - would probably have to go down to a - a lot to the customer. So, more regulation can - can be very burdensome for the customer in terms of cost.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)1:00:24 – 1:00:49

Thank you, sir. Mister Ravitch, in - in my final minute here, uh, I wanna touch base with you on this topic of cabotage, if I may, in referring to the practice of a foreign air carrier operating between two US airports Under current law, I'm told the United States only allows for cabotage when authorized by the Secretary of Transportation. How might cabotage increase competition and benefit consumers? Mr. Rabit.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:00:49 – 1:00:58

Congressman, thank you for the question. So cabotage is a maritime term, the concept being that a foreign carrier can operate uh domestically. So British Airways could fly from Tampa to Toledo or something.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)1:00:59 – 1:00:59

Mm-hmm.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:00:59 – 1:01:22

So you would have competition. You'd have uh more firms in the marketplace potentially, perhaps an infusion of capital, uh and all of the competition that that flows uh there from. The issue of course is uh what's already been referred to, which is how those carriers are subsidized or sponsored. There's some national security concerns. But it is something worthwhile, I think, to at least explore and understand uh how you might get f- more firms into the marketplace.

Rep. Harris (NC-8)1:01:23 – 1:01:25

Very good. Thank you for that, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:01:25 – 1:01:29

Gentleman yields back. We now recognize the gentlewoman from Vermont for five minutes.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:01:29 – 1:01:49

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the witnesses for your time today. Uh, Professor Rose, in in April Transportation Secretary s- uh Duffy said, quote, uh there was still room for mergers in the aviation industry. And I I want to get your take on that. Do you agree with that assessment, still room for mergers?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:01:49 – 1:02:21

Uh, I think there may be, but only in a very specific part of the market. I do not anticipate that there is room, if you care about competition, for the big four to be acquiring additional carriers. But there could be an argument that two of the smaller carriers who don't have much overlap, have complementary networks, might be stronger if they merged operations. That would have to be something that you'd look at carefully, the evidence. Um, so I wouldn't want to rule it in or out. Um, but I think it's very important that you look at - at where there's room to merge, and I don't see that at the top.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:02:21 – 1:02:37

And I think that's an important distinction. And you have touched on this, but just to make it really clear, uh, for - for my constituents back home, from your perspective, what would be the effects of further mergers mergers in an industry that's already incredibly consolidated.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:02:37 – 1:03:10

I think we're just gonna see higher prices. And I wanna make this point that while it is true that airfares in real terms have declined we've seen dramatic reductions in in airfares over time, um, due to some of the benefits of opening up competition. That doesn't mean that the fares we're seeing today are as low as they might have been, had we not allowed the industry to consolidate. And there is interesting economic work that's been done that suggests that the big four in particular are behaving in a much more kind of coordinated pricing, live and let live fashion, that's raising airfares on routes that they compete on.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:03:10 – 1:03:47

And I I share those concerns. I'm wondering if we could turn for a moment about um low-cost and ultra-low-cost carriers, the uh the ULCCs that people have talked about today. There's research that argues that the presence of a ULCC in a market or on a specific route decreases base fares by as much as twenty percent. And earlier this year there were press reports that two ULCCs, uh Sun Country and Allegiant, uh may combine. What effect do these ULCCs play in the market and how would, you know, further consolidation among the ULCCs impact fliers across this country?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:03:47 – 1:03:59

So again, I think it depends on whether they're currently competing or whether they have kind of complementary networks with not much competition. If it's the latter, they could expand their operations, maybe they operate more efficiently because of that scale and they could

Rep. Balint (VT)1:04:22 – 1:04:23

No, I I agree.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:04:22 – 1:04:23

Mm. Mm.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:04:24 – 1:05:01

I wanna touch on um how companies are navigating the Trump administration's antitrust approach, as it were. Uh, antitrust defense lawyers are telling their clients they should hire lobbyists and political fixers with close connections to the White House to get their deals past antitrust enforcers. We've heard from whistleblowers like Roger Alford, who've described a pay-to-play environment in DOJ antitrust. Uh, when you were at DOJ, Professor Rose, especially in your time working on the JetBlue spirit case, Did the president ever weigh in with you or your team?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:05:01 – 1:05:13

Absolutely not. In fact, we weren't even allowed to be at meetings with White House officials, not related to antitrust topics, but if it was for a sector where we had an antitrust investigation going on.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:05:13 – 1:05:15

So, from your perspective, this is outrageous.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:05:16 – 1:05:16

I- it

Rep. Balint (VT)1:05:16 – 1:05:18

This shift is completely and totally outrageous.

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:05:18 – 1:05:19

Absolutely.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:05:19 – 1:05:23

And why is it so important that that doesn't happen, that you don't have a president interfering?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:05:25 – 1:05:42

Because if we have a pay-to-play system, I think both businesses that want to operate kind of honestly and effectively, and consumers all and workers all lose. We're subject to the kind of capricious whims of whoever is willing to pay more to get the outcome that they want.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:05:42 – 1:06:36

I agree. So, you know, I think we have bipartisan agreement in this room that air travel, uh, maybe we do, maybe we don't, actually, now that I I listen to some of my questions uh for my colleagues. I would I think if you ask regular Americans they think things aren't working very well for them, in the in the um flying public. And history has shown us uh that Congress has policy levelers that we can pull here. And whether it's a return to a pre-nineteen seventy-eight regulation model model or stronger oversight, or passing laws to break up these massive airlines, the the traveling public wants change. Um, we all fly every week. I can tell you when I'm sitting in that waiting room, I don't hear people saying, " Things are working great here. We feel really great about the state of the airlines today." Uh, so I turn to you, Professor Rose, for a final word. What should Congress do to ensure a more competitive industry going forward?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:06:37 – 1:06:46

I I think keep our eye on the ball with respect to antitrust and some of these arguments about how to expand infrastructure re- reducing barriers to entry, could be an enormous benefit.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:06:46 – 1:06:47

Thank you, Professor Rose. Now you're back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:06:48 – 1:06:54

General General Leidy yields back. Now recognize the uh Chairman of the full committee, Mister Jordan, for five minutes.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:06:54 – 1:06:59

Thank you, Mister Chairman. Mister Stout, there are there are four big players, right? Four big airlines,

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:06:59 – 1:06:59

Yes.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:06:59 – 1:07:04

United, Delta, American, and then Southwest is big, but not quite as big as the other three. Is that right?

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:07:04 – 1:07:05

That's correct.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:05 – 1:07:10

And then there's a second category, this this uh low-cost carriers in sort of in the middle.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:07:10 – 1:07:10

Mm.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:10 – 1:07:17

And that's people like JetBlue and and and airlines like that. And then you have the super low cost, the ultra low cost. Frontier, Allegiant and others, right?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:17 – 1:07:18

Yeah. Correct.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:18 – 1:07:19

That's the state of play.

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:19 – 1:07:20

That, so far, yes.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:20 – 1:07:27

Okay. And one of the guys in the middle was gonna buy one of the guys in the smaller category. Is that right? JetBlue was gonna buy Spirit.

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:27 – 1:07:27

That's right.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:28 – 1:07:32

Okay. Oh, by the way, what are the what are the big four? What percentage of the airline industry are the big four?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:33 – 1:07:37

About, um, the numbers I've seen are about seventy five percent, but I've heard eighty are a little bit lower today.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:37 – 1:07:38

Eighty p- seventy five, eighty percent. So pretty big.

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:38 – 1:07:39

Something, yeah.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:39 – 1:07:42

And then the JetBlue Spirit was gonna be h- what percentage of the business then?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:42 – 1:07:48

Uh, i i don't remember the exact number it w it was it was it was a much smaller percentage

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:44 – 1:07:49

that merger would have happened yeah but i i heard like ten percent

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:07:49 – 1:07:51

it was something like that yes yeah

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:07:50 – 1:08:05

ok alright uh and then uh so this is proposed i think a couple years ago like three or four years ago and then a couple years later it's like justice department sue says no you can't do it this is bad miss rose says it's terrible and it all falls apart is that right

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:06 – 1:08:06

that's correct

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:06 – 1:08:13

and we got this famous tweet now from senator warren she said i've warned for months that a jet blue spirit airlines merger would have led to

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:20 – 1:08:21

i believe that is correct

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:21 – 1:08:24

yeah maybe if they would merge we wouldn't have that right

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:24 – 1:08:24

that's correct

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:24 – 1:08:34

yeah do you um miss rose said that she said jet blue was gonna raise prices thirty percent would raising prices thirty percent still be lower than the big four

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:35 – 1:08:38

it it would and it would also still provide airline service right now there's none

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:39 – 1:08:39

right

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:39 – 1:08:39

so

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:39 – 1:08:41

right and there'd still be lots of employees

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:42 – 1:08:45

Right effectively the the price is infinite now because there is no option.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:46 – 1:08:48

How many Spirit employees lost their job, do you know?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:08:48 – 1:08:49

I I actually don't have that number, sir.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:08:49 – 1:09:12

Seventeen thousand people lost their job because the Biden DOJ said, no, we don't want a middle class, lower cost airline buying a super low cost airline. Even if they raise prices thirty percent, it's still lower than the big four. They would account for ten percent of the market and be able to compete against the eighty percent. What am I missing in there? Is that is that accurate?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:09:12 – 1:09:13

No, I think that's accurate.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:09:13 – 1:09:27

Yeah, but the the Biden administration said, " No, we can't do that." And and Elizabeth Warren even said it's gonna help consumers when today, in fact, because spirits out of business, there are less fights, less flights, less people working, seventeen uh thousand people out of a job.

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:09:27 – 1:09:28

That's correct, sir.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:09:28 – 1:09:31

And all they wanna do is talk about the Trump administration antitrust?

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:09:32 – 1:10:03

Well, and part of the problem is that this is an antitrust uh doctrinal problem. So the the Biden DOJ was actually pursuing antitrust case law the way it is it is established. And I think that's part of what I've been trying to be here today to convey, is that we do, I think, in fact, need to think about out-of-market efficiencies when we're looking at these these uh these co- these competition concerns. Because JetBlue providing more in extended service was a benefit to consumers that was completely discounted under current antitrust doctrine and I think this committee has the jurisdiction to solve that problem.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:10:03 – 1:10:06

I think we do too. Mister Ravitch, anything you wanna add to that?

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:10:07 – 1:10:16

No, I would I would add something uh like this, which is Spirit uh is an example of deregulatory success. They created a completely fresh innovation that actually uh

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:10:17 – 1:10:19

So fresh they named it after them, right? What's called the Spirit.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:10:19 – 1:10:21

So right, their yellow planes were remarkable.

Kristian Stout (Witness)1:10:20 – 1:10:20

Right.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:10:20 – 1:10:27

Well, Suzanne, that's like, well, they they were so unique, so so new that they actually called it the Spirit Effect in the airline industry. Imagine that.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:10:27 – 1:10:28

Yes, sir.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:10:27 – 1:10:44

And and Elizabeth Warren says, " No, no, no, we're gonna put them out of business, not let them continue. We can't let JetBlue buy old. We can't have a merger." cuz five big people competing would be somehow harmful to consumers, when when right now it's four big players. That makes no sense to me. K- I I didn't mean to jump in. Keep going.

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:10:45 – 1:10:47

No, uh, I have nothing to add. I might drop on that.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:10:47 – 1:11:00

Yeah, okay. Um, Governor, you get the you get the last minute for to to hopefully educate the committee on why we need to do things the right way with the Justice Department, versus how it was done before. Anything you want to add, John?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:11:00 – 1:11:01

You want me to free form?

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:11:01 – 1:11:01

Oh, yeah.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:11:02 – 1:11:41

No, uh, well, look, I w- I would just, you know, when we talk about the the one thing i've i've picked up here is today forty six percent of all passengers fly on low cost or ultra low cost carriers that number was about twenty five percent in the year two thousand it was about four percent around this time of deregulation so more people are flying on these ultra low cost carriers and low cost carriers than ever before um which which is an opportunity i would just caution i know we the seventy five eighty percent has been thrown around you have to be careful that can that can be uh miles traveled That can be number of flights. But when you look at actual number of passengers, uh, they have about fifty percent of their old low-cost, low-cost carriers. And that's a great thing.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:11:41 – 1:11:42

Yep.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:11:42 – 1:11:51

Right? That increased competition with low-cost pricing has forced the big guys to create low-cost models that they traditionally didn't have to allow again more competition

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:11:49 – 1:11:49

Yeah.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:11:51 – 1:11:53

for for uh lower income families.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:11:53 – 1:11:55

Imagine that. Competition in the marketplace.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:11:55 – 1:11:55

It works.

Rep. Jordan (OH-4)1:11:55 – 1:11:57

Imagine that. Uh, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:11:59 – 1:12:02

Chairman yields back. And I'll recognize the gentleman from Illinois.

Rep. García (IL-4)1:12:03 – 1:14:10

Thank you, uh, Mr. Chairman. As my democratic, uh, colleagues have laid out, uh, Republican attempts to blame the Biden administration for the collapse of spirit is nonsense. It's a distraction from the Iran war, which is illegal, unpopular, and cruel, and it was fuel prices that was a major factor in spirit going under. It's a distraction from the cesspool of corruption at the DOJ antitrust division, and what it's become. And it's a distraction from the real competition issues facing commercial aviation today. Despite the rosy picture that Governor Sununu paints, only thirty-one percent of Americans have a positive view of the airline industry, and consolidation has fueled anti-competitive practices that are ripping off constituents like mine and hurting the aviation system. We're seeing these practices, for example, at Chicago O'Hare, uh, which is the only dual hub airport in the country. And that competition seems to bother United CEO Scott Kirby. Mister Kirby has said that his long-term plan is for United to take over American's gates and threatened to add, quote, as many flights as are required, unquote, to crowd out American. After United tried to flood O'Hare with unprofitable flights, the FAA imposed a flight cap to address congestion that would have overstressed the system and jeopardized safety. This turf war and the flight cap likely influenced South West's decision to leave O'Hare. and the decisions of low-cost carriers to reduce capacity there as well. Professor Rose, how has airline consolidation and the rise of fortress hubs led to more anti-competitive practices like what we're seeing at O'Hare?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:14:11 – 1:14:23

So I wanna first note that as you did, hub airlines can confer benefits for local travelers by offering frequent nonstop service to many destinations. But the economics literature shows that hub airlines can cement their market power in high fares by tactics

Rep. García (IL-4)1:14:49 – 1:15:30

Thank you. And I want to discuss another anti-consumer practice. And I want to discuss another anti-consumer practice. Surveillance pricing. Last year, ranking member Nadler and I demanded answers after Delta executives indicated that they were partnering with an Israeli AI pricing company to adopt surveillance-based pricing. Governor Sununu, let me ask you, do any of your members charge individualized prices to consumers based on personal information like purchase history? web browsing behavior, geo-location, social media activity, or financial status?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:15:30 – 1:15:43

One hundred percent, absolutely not. Surveillance pricing is different than dynamic pricing. Dynamic pricing, every virtually every industry uses surveillance pricing, as you pointed out, looks at personal information, and we absolutely do not participate in that.

Rep. García (IL-4)1:15:43 – 1:15:55

Well, since these companies claim that they're not engaged in surveilling uh surveillance pricing, would airlines for america support legislation banning this practice

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:15:55 – 1:15:58

banning surveillance pricing hundred percent yeah it's terrible

Rep. García (IL-4)1:15:56 – 1:16:46

yes so uh if you're uh not going to adopt surveillance pricing then you should have no objection to banning it and from an antitrust enforcement to reforming gate and slot allocations there are many other policy solutions that would increase competition lower prices and protect workers Congress should be enacting them, not covering up Trump's corruption and criminality. Before I yield back, I would ask unanimous consent to submit for the record my letter with ranking member Nadler to Delta about surveillance pricing. I also ask unanimous consent to submit this July twenty twenty four report titled, How to Fix Flying? A New Approach to Regulating the Airlines Industry.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:16:44 – 1:16:45

Without objection.

Rep. García (IL-4)1:16:46 – 1:16:47

Thank you and I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:16:48 – 1:16:53

Without objection, we now recognize the general from Vermont for uh UC request.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:16:49 – 1:16:59

Mister Chair, I have some UCs. Uh, thank you, Mister Chair. First, from Reuters, Spirit Airlines shuts down industry's first Iran war casualty.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:16:59 – 1:17:00

Without objection.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:17:01 – 1:17:07

From the BBC, Trump says, quote, " I love the inflation as US prices rise at fastest rate in three years."

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:17:06 – 1:17:07

Without objection.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:17:07 – 1:17:17

From Frommer's, US Airlines try to abandon passenger rights and performance reports to secretly police themselves. Airline lobbyists are pressuring regulators to abandon your protections.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:17:16 – 1:17:17

Without objection.

Rep. Balint (VT)1:17:18 – 1:17:24

from the travel tech travel technology association a prepared statement for the record

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:17:23 – 1:17:25

without without objection

Rep. Balint (VT)1:17:25 – 1:17:26

thank you

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:17:27 – 1:17:30

now recognize the gentlewoman from wyoming for five minutes

Rep. Hageman (WY)1:17:30 – 1:19:33

thank you i do want to remind everyone that the spirit jet blue merger failed because of the biden administration's outright hostility to mergers during those four years when they were in office lena kahn took the position that no merger would be allowed unless the parties ended up worse off than before which I think is incredibly stunningly stupid. But that was the position that they took, and now we are where we are. And I think that Mr. Stout, Mr. Ravitch, and uh Governor Sununu, you have described the economic consequences of those kinds of decisions. One of the frustrations that I have had being in Congress is that I have not found many people in Washington DC who understand the c- the concept of opportunity costs. Uh, I would love it if we had a requirement maybe we can pass a constitutional amendment that before you can become a member of Congress you actually have to take an economics class to learn something that basic. Um, I come from Wyoming, and despite being one of America's most rural states, Wyoming's air service is a significant economic contributor. Wyoming's thirty-nine public use airports collect collectively contribute approximately three point five billion in annual economic impact while nine commercial service airports support over thousand jobs each year. Over eight hundred and seventy-five thousand passengers boarded flights departing from Wyoming's airports in twenty twenty-five with my state ranking seventh nationally in passenger growth since twenty nineteen Wyoming has the second highest average fare in the country it is fifty-three percent ho- uh more than the national average and with new industries moving into Wyoming each year and tourism being one of our largest business sectors in terms of economic impact, maintaining accessible, reliable air service is critical for economic growth and development. And in in many rural markets there is effectively only one network carrier providing meaning meaningful connectivity. Mister Ravitch, what metrics should Congress use to determine whether competition is improving for rural consumers?

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:19:34 – 1:20:10

Congresswoman, thank you for the question. Some of the metrics you gi gave are compelling for Wyoming, for example, right? You can look at those things and see that there's a magnetism to Wyoming, Cheyenne, et cetera. The the cons- we don't wanna disconnect to certain communities. That was always a concern of deregulation. Uh at the same time, a government subsidization of airlines, making them go to places that aren't necessarily compelling business cases, I think is a fair thing uh to say. And so we just have to sort of balance those uh opportunities, economic opportunities for firms to reasonably uh decide what business model they want uh while also uh giving Americans in emerging uh places and dynamic places,

Rep. Hageman (WY)1:20:12 – 1:20:38

Okay, and and Mister or uh Governor Sununu, in your written testimony you cite that five point five percent of US domestic market passengers traveling in city pairs were left with just one carrier. With limited exceptions, this statistic is broadly applicable to Wyoming as most of our communities solely rely on United Air M- Airlines for commercial air service. What responsibility do major airlines have to main access to the national air

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:20:40 – 1:21:16

Yeah. So let me, if I may, let me begin by saying I think you're absolutely correct. Wyoming especially is disproportionately, even as you talk in rural areas, really disproportionately challenged uh when it comes to access, specifically in Cheyenne and Jackson, and I know the airlines have looked at at different opport uh uh opportunities there. A couple couple things. Um rural access is absolutely critical, right? That's about choice, that's about competition. What we find is that consumers are making interesting choices, looking at their smaller airport they're they're willing to travel further uh because smaller airports are typically more expensive unfortunately so that's

Rep. Hageman (WY)1:21:15 – 1:21:15

mmm

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:21:16 – 1:21:37

why eas the eas um the central air service program is is vital we're huge supporters of it i frankly i think it should probably be expanded um to make sure that uh these connectivity points are really there and to your point this is where we uh in some some markets you do have five six seven eight different uh competitors flying from point to point Not not in Wyoming.

Rep. Hageman (WY)1:21:37 – 1:21:38

Not in Wyoming.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:21:38 – 1:22:31

Uh, in Wyoming it's really, really tough. So, um, again, anything we can do to g to again make sure that uh with on a deregulatory basis, making sure that the opportu the financial opportunities flow to the customer, not to the government or to the customer, uh those opportunities will flow there uh so that can competition can thrive, reducing the cost on airports, making sure that infrastructure is done, making sure that again, I go back to even looking at our national airspace, right? How Right now we manage, every little pocket manages its own little national uh own part of the national airspace, as opposed to this new uh modernized system that we're uh Brian Bedford and the FAA are bringing into play, which will allow more efficiency, especially in rural areas that right now you could have you have small airports that could be have unmanned towers right now right that a major carrier isn't going to fly there necessarily so by having a more comprehensive uh air control system as well you're gonna have a more opportunity in rural areas.

Rep. Hageman (WY)1:22:31 – 1:22:41

I am out of time, but if you have an opportunity, I would love for each of you during the course of this hearing to give one example of what you think Congress should do to improve this situation. Thank you and I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:22:42 – 1:22:46

General Lady yields back. Now recognize the gentleman from Georgia for five minutes.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:22:46 – 1:23:15

Thank you, Mister Chairman, it's been years since the uh Biden administration challenged the acquisition of uh sp- spirit uh by JetBlue. It's been years. Isn't it a fact that uh Spirit collapsed because Trump's unconstitutional war of choice with Iran caused fuel prices to surge uncontrollably? Isn't that a fact, uh Professor Rose?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:23:15 – 1:23:17

That's what the Spirit CEO said.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:23:17 – 1:24:20

And we have all felt the pain at the pump with our cars, and the price of jet fuel went up even more steeply than the price of gasoline. Once Trump went to war with Iran, the price of jet fuel became more than double the cost that was contemplated in Spirit's restructuring projections, costing Spirit nearly one hundred million dollars more than they were expecting in March and April alone. And in fact, as you note, uh Professor Rose, their bankruptcy filings admit that it was untenable fuel cost that led to their downfall. And the impact of Trump's reckless war extends beyond spirit. The Bureau of Transportation Statistics reported that airlines paid nearly six point five billion dollars in fuel costs in April of twenty twenty six, which is seventy eight percent higher than what they paid a year before the war began. Isn't that right, uh, Mr. Sununu?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:24:21 – 1:24:22

No, it's not right.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:24:22 – 1:24:24

Okay, well, isn't it correct that

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:24:23 – 1:24:24

No.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:24:24 – 1:24:25

Sure.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:24:24 – 1:24:38

Airlines could not absorb the added cost of the Iran war and the price of uh jet fuels and so that's why they had to ri- raise prices over thirty percent over the last five

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:24:37 – 1:24:44

Oh, uh, the airlines as a whole, yes, sir. Sorry, uh, but Spirit Airlines was in major financial distress years before the I the uh issue in Iran, though.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:24:44 – 1:24:46

But Iran pushed them over the brink, though.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:24:46 – 1:24:48

Two two months of increased air uh two months of

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:24:47 – 1:24:47

But

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:24:47 – 1:24:49

But couldn't couldn't handle it.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:24:48 – 1:24:52

increased fuel costs did not sink Jet uh Spirit. That's not what sunk Spirit.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:24:51 – 1:26:30

Um, well, it it certainly wasn't the the the denial of the merger that did it, but let me move on. Um, even people who are not flying are hurting because of Trump's war of choice. Diesel prices are skyrocketing. Trucks that deliver goods to grocery stores use diesel, so they need to pass those expenses on to consumers, and in and in just the first few months of this unconstitutional war, American households paid an extra four hundred and fifty dollars on average. Wholesale prices are rising, hiring plans are delayed, and farmers cannot get their fertilizer uh for their crops. Trump went in without a plan, and so who knows how long this war is actually gonna last. American businesses and consumers were finally free from Trump's tariffs, Just in time to be slapped down again by a price increase from this war of choice. Um. Professor Rose, one of the phrases in your written testimony really struck me. You said that you you were concerned that under the Trump administration, antitrust enforcement is turning into quote a political favor factory, end quote. Uh, I don't think it could be put any better than that. Can you talk a little bit more about why the entire system suffers when the wealthy and the politically connected can buy the outcome that they prefer?

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:26:31 – 1:27:14

Yeah, I always thought of antitrust as being the the domain that preserved um a consumer-facing and worker-facing interest in competition, and honestly for other small businesses or businesses that wanna grow, preserved their ability to expand. When you don't have that protection, then you empower companies, particularly stronger companies or companies who are seeking um competitive advantage and and monopoly rents to to raise prices, to create barriers to entry, to competition, to restrict others from coming into the market. Um as I mentioned before, you can have workers getting paid less because you're reducing competition for their employment, and all of that has tremendous cost for the American people.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:27:14 – 1:27:35

Thank you. Uh, Mister Sununu, I I find it uh curious. I'm curious about your uh disagreement with the uh chair of spirit admitting that it was untenable fuel costs that were the cause of their demise. Uh, you you take issue with that. I don't understand why, but let me ask

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:27:36 – 1:27:36

Oh, sorry.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:27:36 – 1:27:43

let me ask Professor Rose, uh do you think that concentrated unchecked economic power poses a threat

Nancy L. Rose (Witness)1:27:45 – 1:27:51

Yes, sir, although I'm not sure that that's accessible through the antitrust laws, at least it's currently written.

Rep. Johnson (GA-4)1:27:51 – 1:27:53

All right. Thank you. I'm out of time. I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:27:54 – 1:27:58

Gentleman yields back. Now I recognize gentleman from Kansas for five minutes.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:27:59 – 1:28:12

Thank you, Miss Chairman, I thank all of our witnesses for being here. Uh, listen carefully to the questioning, the back and forth. As always, it's been informative and uh listen to our friends on the other side, uh who have talked a great deal about fuel costs and I think I'd like to take

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:28:26 – 1:28:28

No. I'm just kidding.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:28:27 – 1:28:28

Thank you very much. That's good.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:28:28 – 1:28:28

I'm sorry.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:28:28 – 1:28:41

Best witness I've had all day. That's good. Would it surprise you to know that, uh, jet fuel prices on average at the height of the war in Iran were the same as they were in April of twenty twenty two?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:28:42 – 1:28:42

Uh, no.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:28:43 – 1:28:50

And of course, in April of twenty-two twenty-two we were about two months after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, isn't that right?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:28:51 – 1:28:53

There was a there was a brief spike there, yes.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:28:53 – 1:29:02

And it was only three months after April of twenty-twenty-two and July of twenty-two that the merger of JetBlue and Spirit was publicly proposed, isn't that right?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:29:02 – 1:29:02

I believe that's right.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:29:03 – 1:29:18

So at the time the antitrust reviewers in the prior administration began uh consideration and ultimately review of the merger, didn't they know or shouldn't they have known that fuel price spikes were not only a possibility but a recent reality?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:29:19 – 1:29:20

I would imagine so, yes.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:29:20 – 1:29:22

Would they have taken that into account in their review?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:29:22 – 1:29:23

I would have hoped so, yeah.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:29:23 – 1:29:31

Would uh airline managers, leadership, have taken that into account in their planning for the future survivability of their firms?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:29:32 – 1:29:38

Uh, yeah, yes, uh, and I would just say each of the airlines kind of hedges against fuel in very different ways and some of them don't hedge at all I mean they used

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:29:44 – 1:29:58

So let me let me talk a little bit about fuel prices, Governor, and it's it's because it's been so central to today's discussion, I think it's very relevant. Uh uh You know, going forward there are going to be future fuel spike price spikes,

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:29:57 – 1:29:57

Yes.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:29:58 – 1:30:19

uh, through international events, through other market factors. It is going to happen, as it happened in April of twenty-two and it happened again, uh, within the last six months or so. something will happen down the road. And so as airline leadership managers, whether they're from the big four, from the mid-sized, or from the small planes, they they all pay the same fuel prices, don't they, Governor?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:30:19 – 1:30:20

Relatively, yes.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:30:21 – 1:30:26

And so they all have to consider planning to sort of hedge against that risk of a spike in prices. Isn't that right?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:30:26 – 1:30:28

Yeah. They all plan, yeah, they have to plan, that's for sure.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:30:29 – 1:30:37

So as they're planning, um, do they take into account ways that they might be able to mitigate the price of jet fuel going forward?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:30:38 – 1:30:40

Yep. Yes, they do, and they all do it a little bit differently.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:30:40 – 1:30:47

Would that include a discussion of alternate forms of jet fuel that might be coming onto the market in ways that are commercially relevant?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:30:47 – 1:30:53

Of course. You know, they're all they're all big believers and users in SAF, as as you know, and uh and that continues to rise.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:30:53 – 1:31:24

So let's talk about SAF just a little bit. Uh, it's obviously an interest of ours. In farm country we care a lot about it. Uh, but we care about it not only because it helps our producers and it helps our local economies when it's produced domestically and and the investment comes here, but also because it helps our consumers who are ultimately flying on the aircraft that uh have the potential. Can you share with us a little bit about how a mature domestic SAF industry um a at scale uh could have an effect on the planning for airlines to be more competitive, including price competitive for consumers?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:31:24 – 1:32:12

Sure. So as the I think as the industry matures, the economics get better and better, right? Because like any fairly new technology, and it is a fairly new uh uh uh in introduction into the industry, it starts out fairly costly, lots of new i won't say barriers to entry but you know costs r and d all of our airlines are investing in various forms of research and development to make SAF uh more accessible, easier to produce, um whatever it may be, trying to get more uh companies that actually make uh giving more time for more companies that actually make SAF to come onto the market i actually just met with one of the largest SAF manufacturers and they're building a brand new plant, they're expanding so there's no doubt that over time prices should definitely come down, be much more competitive with standard uh jet fuels, uh, and provide more options potentially as you may, uh, see, uh, uh, you know, severe spikes in the future.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:32:12 – 1:32:17

Are there ways that Congress could better partner with the industry to help that transition to scale occur?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:32:17 – 1:32:53

Uh, look, any, any sort of infrastructure investment. I, I would say for airlines in particular, some of the investments we look at are the transportation, right? You, you have a kind of a your own transportation system for SAF cuz you don't, you know, you're not mixing it with other traditional jet fuels. Um, permitting, permitting reforms to make sure that we can build and develop whether it's uh folks that wanna develop SAF or the pipelines to move SAF from point A to point B or getting tanks, storage tanks approved at various airports, that's one of the bigger barriers because you need kind of a whole n- a whole separate system for it, so that requires a lot more infrastructure, so permitting and an investment in that infrastructure would be very helpful.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:32:53 – 1:32:59

And these are discussions that will evolve everybody in the industry, except Spirit, right? It's not relevant to them anymore.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:32:59 – 1:33:00

Not anymore unfortunately, yeah.

Rep. Schmidt (KS-2)1:33:00 – 1:33:01

Chairman, I yield back.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:33:02 – 1:33:20

The gentleman yields back. Uh, I think we've gone through just about all the members that are available today. I was just gonna um utilize my five minutes to ask two more questions. Governor Sununu, and this is a topic that came up a couple times, just dig into this a little bit more. At the slot controlled airports,

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:33:19 – 1:33:19

Airport.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:33:20 – 1:33:26

kinda the incumbent carriers benefit by it's kind of a use it or lose it system, right?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:33:25 – 1:33:26

That's right.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:33:26 – 1:33:32

Do you think the does the slot system harm competition because of the way it's kinda designed?

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:33:33 – 1:33:49

Um, no, um, well, a couple things. So when when a l- a l- a smaller carrier wants a slot, that's kinda worked out between the carrier and the airport itself. And if the carrier isn't happy or feels like they're being unfairly uh treated, there is an appeals process up to the FAA that they can use,

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:33:49 – 1:33:49

Okay.

Chris Sununu (Witness)1:33:49 – 1:34:35

but that's really a carrier airport airport type decision. Um, I would argue and and let you know that more slots are allocated to low-cost carriers today than than ever before, right? So they they they have and are continuing to grow capacity. Right. Um, so, yeah, I'm I I mean, the the slots not and by the way not every airport is slotted. That's another thing to to be uh aware of. Uh, some airports aren't, some some airports aren't. Okay. Okay. You know, one of the things I've learned in this industry is is there's a saying, if you've seen one airport, you've seen one airport. And that's in terms of its structure, Right. their management, their slot system, how they allocate and the and their um uh the infrastructure and the airlines coming into it. So everyone is is truly taken unique, but we want we want Exactly. Again, we want that broad variety. I represent a lot of airlines, right? I want everybody to have a fair sh- a fair shot at that pie.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:34:36 – 1:34:44

Very good. Thank you. Mister Ravage, what's your take on the slot system and the impact it has on overall operations nationwide?

Timothy M. Ravich (Witness)1:34:43 – 1:35:20

Uh, I, Chairman, I do think you've identified an an issue that's worth the attention of of this, uh, committee. Uh, as Governor Sunil rightly points out, uh, A four eight even has a diverse constituency, right? There's no sort of monolithic airline industry, so they even compete, uh, with one another. And they don't agree necessarily. Some of these airlines want uh the other airline slots, even with, you know, not United and American are the big airlines. So I think there is uh some anti-competitive uh pressure or tendencies in slots and gates that that does need evaluation. And I I should refer to uh I think pending legislation right in the Senate, uh with the gateway access um law, which which does have some uh merit to it.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:35:22 – 1:35:26

Well, very good. That uh concludes today's hearing, we wanna thank the witnesses

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:35:32 – 1:35:33

Mr. Chairman.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:35:34 – 1:35:34

Oh.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:35:37 – 1:35:40

I I just want a a couple of you see requests if that's all right,

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:35:37 – 1:35:38

Yes, that is recognized.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:35:40 – 1:35:40

Mr. Chairman.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:35:40 – 1:35:40

Yep.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:35:41 – 1:35:52

Uh firstly the um decision of um the Reagan appointee Judge Young in US versus JetBlue Airways Corporation uh January sixteenth twenty twenty one.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:35:51 – 1:35:52

Not objection.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:35:53 – 1:36:02

Um the second one is uh an article from Law three titled Biden-era MNA data shows continuity, not revolution. And then, uh,

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:36:02 – 1:36:02

Objection.

Rep. Raskin (MD-8)1:36:03 – 1:36:17

finally, yeah, um, this was an article February twenty one, twenty twenty five, Spirit Airlines to exit chapter eleven within weeks as court backs recovery plan. That, of course, was just, um, a few days before the the war started in Iran.

Rep. Fitzgerald (WI-5)1:36:18 – 1:36:21

Without objection. With that, this hearing is adjourned.

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