Bounce Houses, Drones, Massage Chairs: VA VR&E Purchase History

Good afternoon, this afternoon will come to order. I wanna thank everyone for being here today to discuss the Veterans Readiness and Employment Programs, VRNE, and the purpose of this program is to assist veterans who have service connected dis- abilities with the training and skills they need in order to obtain meaningful employment or live fully independent lives. Um, I know that This sounds so funny. I know that the the doors to this program can open for veterans and their families that they otherwise may not have access to. So this program allows other programs, uh, or veterans to have access to them. It's a fantastic benefit, but that doesn't mean that we can give or are going to give you guys a blank check for VR&E. Uh, today we're gonna examine the potential waste, fraud and abuse that continues to occur with this multi-billion dollar VA program. This is directly in line with the Trump administration appointing, uh, Vice President J. D. Vance, uh, to take care of other things in the executive branch and we look forward to working hand-in-hand with you guys. Here's a couple examples. The VA has approved purchase thirty-one thousand dollars for three custom raised flower beds for a veteran to learn how to live independently. Uh, having lived independently for a very long period of time, I never saw the necessity for a raised flower bed. The average market price for flower bed is between eleven hundred to thirty one hundred and seventy-five dollars. and uh nine hundred and seventeen thousand dollars for initial evaluation and case management. That's what we gotta talk about, what does this evaluation and case management mean, and how can we be spending just under a a million dollars uh for that for an individual veteran. The federal government's having to pay over market prices on many items that are meant to help veterans find and maintain gainful employment. This is not a fiscally responsible, this is not fiscally responsible and shows that more guardrails and justifications are needed to approve these purchases. The issue here is that these purchases were made without employment metrics or outcomes and this is due to the VRNE program sliding under the radar. If VA were to provide information that shows how these purchases resulted in veteran employment then I'm all for it. Uh and as student veterans should be provided with all the necessary items they need for self-employment economic opportunity and for their academic betterment. Uh however, we have to insure that the taxpayers are also protected as the costs for this program continue to skyrocket. And one individual, this is a crazy, one individual has spent over eight hundred thousand dollars in less than three years, and over three hundred thousand dollars in one year. That is one veteran. This is an absurd amount of money that goes against the intent of the VRNE program. My legislation would help cap the amount of money that can be spent annually on supplies for VRNE enrollees. This issue here is that we do not know the outcomes and more oversight is needed. VIA projects uh, projects the program to cost double over the next two fiscal years. We need to make sure that this program works for the veteran and it is not a blank check for- to continuously stay in a program and not reach the ultimate goal of program the - the meaning of the program, sorry, which is employment. Under current law, there's no cap on the number of times you can enter the program. We've seen several individuals who have been in this program for over two decades. We have several individuals who have been involved in VRT for over two decades. If disabled veterans are truly in need, they can and should, we can and should help them, but I think we also agree that a training program that continues for twenty years is not meeting the needs of the veteran or the taxpayer. We must examine VA's path forward and VRNA to ensure that there are checks and balances in the program to safeguard the integrity of this benefit. And I look forward to hearing from you guys from the VA. Uh, I also will mention that um, Ranking Member Pappas, my friend, and I have discussed this and I I think it would have come in accord, that w- both of us really want this program to work. We also understand that there's um, we have to have measurable outcomes to make sure that we help the most amount of veterans as possible. And with that, I I do yield to my good friend, uh, ranking member, Pappas.

Well, thank you, Mister Chairman. When veterans finish their service to our country, too many have difficulty figuring out what to pursue next, securing steady employment or experience a variety of other issues adapting to civilian life. That's why the VRNE program was established, to provide veterans with the resources and guidance to help navigate these obstacles in secure employment, or even establish their own small business. Indeed, VRNE is one of the most effective services that VA provides during the critical transition period to help veterans land on their feet, which is why I feel it's necessary to emphasize how disingenuous I feel at the messaging and rationale behind this hearing is. From what I understand, this hearing was prompted by cherry-picking some of the highest cost items from various VA regional offices. My staff requested copies of these documents multiple times so we could understand what was going on and scrutinize the expenditures, but the majority refused to provide a copy. I think this is extremely frustrating, the entire discussion today was prompted and informed by these very documents. Nonetheless, we were able to track them down ourselves. These documents primarily show that VRNE is doing what it's supposed to do for veterans. Of course, like all government programs, it needs oversight and could be improved. The items purchased for veterans were in support of successful businesses. That means veterans created business plans, had them approved by a counselor, and then launched those small businesses. From the documents from VA, we've learned of additional examples of veterans receiving resources from VA to fishery business and a commercial printing business. And in both cases, VA's support actually exceeded any of the examples raised by the majority in the title but weren't included in the provocative hearing title itself. Encouraging veterans to believe in themselves, become entrepreneurs, and build a life where their service is complete is exactly what this program is designed to do. And by the way, the businesses the majority has focused on, they're still successful today, providing jobs and contributing to local economies across the country. To point to these purchases, through some sort of doge lens is completely out of context and does a disservice to the constructive ways that we should be examining and improving VRNE. I'm interested in helping uh in hearing more from VA about their process and controls to ensure the integrity of this program but we shouldn't be targeting a successful program because it's doing what it's supposed to do, supporting veterans who develop a successful business model uh approved by both VA and SBA and need support to build upon their success. The highest spending item in fact was contracting out for VRNE services. So that's what we should be discussing if we want to talk about ways that we can reduce spending improve oversight and improve VRNE effectiveness for veterans. VA is still feeling the effects of President Trump and Elon Musk's staff cuts, and now is being forced to contract out to provide veterans with their earned benefits. That means our veterans are receiving inferior services that are costing Americans more. And when doctors prescribe a major purchase for a veteran, VRNE counselors are asked to approve or deny whether or not that purchase is appropriate. In the past, that meant a careful review of the recommendation from a doctor, a review of the veteran's situation, and an assessment of the appropriateness of such a purchase. With the caseloads now at about two hundred cases per counselor and staffing in the agency reeling from doge cuts, counselors are simply making the best decisions they can, uh, given limited time and resources. So we should take a serious look at what can be done to improve this program, how we can better support VRNE's staff in its mission, This includes properly staffing the agency so it has the staff necessary to properly conduct oversight and reviews of spending, and that we don't have to spend millions of dollars on overpriced contractors. That this h- uh, that is the hearing that I believe we should be having. This committee claims to be looking for answers as to why VRNE is experiencing delays, and I think it's simple, the program isn't staffed appropriately. And with the counselors overworked and aging out of the workforce, we're facing a major staffing cliff at VRNE if we don't act fast. So, I look forward to hearing from VA and our witnesses. and our witness from PVA today because oversight of VRNE uh is important, it's needed, and it's up to this Congress to provide the agency with the resources it needs to do its job. I yield back.

Did you know when he yields back? Oh and I'll introduce our witness panel. Our first witness is Miss Margarita Del- uh Devon Devlin, sorry, Margarita. Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Accompanying Miss Devlin is Miss Shantil Stovall, Acting Executive Director, Veterans Readiness and Employment Service. Veterans Benefit Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our third witness is Miss Julia Howell, Associate Legislative Director at Paralyzed Veterans of America. Thank you very much for coming. Please stand and raise your right hand.

Where is that? We don't have

That's right. Um Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to provide is the whole truth, or nothing but the truth? Thank you. Let the record reflect that the witnesses answer the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Miss Devlin, you are now recognized for five minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden and Ranking Member Pappas, it's good to see you both again, and distinguished members of this subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify at this hearing titled " Bounce House, Drones, and Massage Chairs: A Review of VA's Partis' History in the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program." Joining me today from the Veterans Benefits Administration is Ms. Shantil Stovall, Acting Executive Director of VR&E service. The VR&E program plays a vital role in helping veterans overcome service-connected disabilities so they can achieve meaningful career goals or when employment is not feasible, attain greater independence in their daily lives. The purchases that may appear unconventional at first glance represent real veterans who through tailored rehabilitation plans have built successful businesses secured long-term employment, or achieved essential independence in their homes and in their communities. Congress establishes the statutory authorities under which the VRNE program operates, and VA implements those authorities as written. The purchases referenced in the title of this hearing were made within that framework, in direct support of approved rehabilitation plans, designed to meet the individualized needs of the veterans we serve. Each decision reflects a balance between responsible stewardship of taxpayer dollars and providing veterans the best opportunity for their success. VA remains fully committed to strengthening the VRNE program through rigorous financial oversight robust internal controls and modernization efforts that enhance service to veterans and accountability to taxpayers and Congress. If Congress chooses to amend these authorities or redefine the program's parameters, VA will fully and faithfully implement those changes. We stand ready to provide technical assistance as you consider any potential updates to ensure the program remains strong accountable and aligned with your intent. Ms. Stovall and I are prepared to answer your questions. Thank you very much for inviting us.

Thank you, Miss Devlin. The written statement of Miss Devlin will be entered into the hearing record. Miss Howell, you're not recognized for five minute for two and a half minutes to five minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, PVA appreciates the opportunity to share our views on the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program, or VRNE. VRNE dis- uh, excuse me, VRNE assists disabled veterans in finding meaningful and lasting employment, despite incurring disabilities or illnesses due to their military service. The services and supports available to veterans with catastrophic disabilities through VRNE are critical to ensuring their successful employment outcomes and or their independence. Although today's hearing is focused on purchase history within VRNE or written testimony mainly highlights our broader concerns with the program. We chose this focus because PVA believes that strong management and oversight of the VRNE program are essential for the program's fiscal integrity and accuracy. I'll focus my oral remarks on three topics, a brief reminder of the mission of VRNE, some ongoing concerns that we have, and I'll close with a few suggestions that may help to improve delivery of this critical benefit. First, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the VRNE All you have to do is look up VRNE on any social media platform to see that confusion abounds and answers are hard to find. At its core, VRNE is an employment program for disabled veterans. Most veterans believe that VRNE exists to help them return to school or address needs related to starting their own business, but many veterans don't understand the role of a vocational rehabilitation counselor or a VRC. A VRC is trained to help veterans find suitable, sustainable, financially sufficient employment that will sustain them through their lives, not just for a few years after they've completed the program. It is imperative for stakeholders to understand that the expertise that comes with a master's in vocational rehabilitation directly relates to a veteran's viability and long-term employment outcomes. However, in this current environment, VRC's are expected to do the administrative work of authorizations, reimbursements, uploads, letters, dashboards, and tracking performance metrics. These are important functions, but they are not employment counseling. If these functions are a priority for VA, then VA should hire staff with business, accounting, or similar backgrounds to accomplish that work. Doing so would free up the time, allowing a VRC to focus on the work of employment counseling, particularly for veterans with complex disabilities. While PVA is grateful for the opportunities we've been given to provide feedback on this essential program, there seems to be a disconnect between the VA, Congress, and the veteran community. about the best ways to guarantee the sustainability of this important program, which brings me to my second point. For years, PVA and other VSOs have requested additional appropriations from Congress to meet the demands of the program that's facing exponentially increasing enrollment numbers. These requests have mostly gone unheard. Veterans still experience long wait times, struggle to contact their counselors, and VRCs are overburdened by administrative tasks. We fear that the VRNE program is a perfect storm of high case volume, under-staffing, and an enormous amount of administrative burden. Morale is low, demand is high, and VRC's are close to burning out. If something isn't done to address these issues, veterans will likely wait even longer to get into the program, enrolled veterans may experience delayed payments and other negative effects that could impact their long-term well-being. Finally, I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions that we think could help in the delivery of benefits for VRNE participants. First, VRNE needs to hire additional staff. Recently on a stakeholder engagement call, VRNE shared that they were undergoing a hiring blitz to help fill vacancies across the country. However, it's unclear from that conversation which positions VA is prioritizing. The VRNE program again should consider hiring additional support staff to help reduce the administrative burden that is falling heavy on the shoulders of counselors. Next, VRNE should create a na create national specialty teams for complex service tracks such as retroactive self-employment and independent living. Additionally, VRNE should end mandatory overtime. VRC's are not a finite resource and PVA has concerns about the sustainability of this cadre in the face of increasing demand. Without sufficient staffing across the country, veterans will continue to face barriers that impact their financial independence as well as their participation in the labor market. In closing, VRNE is an earned benefit intended to get veterans into suitable employment, and the long-standing issues that have been voiced over the years continue. It is essential that we do everything we can to ensure the sustainability of the VRNE program. Thank you again for the invitation to testify, and I welcome any questions you have.

Thank you, Miss Howell, the written statement of Miss Howell will be entered into the hearing record. We're now gonna proceed to questionings and they're gonna call votes here in a little bit so we're gonna do three minutes uh per member and then if we have time, we'll go into a second round of question, I just don't wanna stop the hearing and restart it again. So with that said, I now recognize ranking member Pappas for three minutes.

Thanks, Mister Chairman, so the President's budget was just released and it targets hiring three hundred counselors next year to support the growing growing case loads within VR and E um and so Miss Devlin I wonder if I could ask you a few questions about this, if you could uh address the current case load uh within VR and E.

Um yes, thank you for the question. Our current ratio is one to one ninety-nine, which is the why we really need to get these counselors hired.

And so if the three hundred are hired, um, does that get us closer to the one to one twenty-five? Does it get us all the way there?

It will get us closer, not all the way.

And - and, uh, can you address, um, what, um, Miss Howell brought up in her testimony about the need for more support staff and how that could you know help balance the workload of VRC's?

Thank you for the question. Uh, I agree that VRC should be spending more time counseling veterans and less time on administrative tasks. When we look at what uh lends itself to satisfaction with the program, what veterans will typically tell you is their relationship with their counselor is the most important part of their satisfaction that connection, the ability to have the counselor fully invest in that veteran's success. Um, the RES system that we're in the process of deploying will take a lot of that administrative burden off of the counselors while also administering more internal controls for fiscal accountability.

How confident are you that this three hundred target can be hit Um, do we have enough qualified applicants that will be out there for us to hire? And do you feel like, uh, the pay scale is competitive enough with the private sector?

It's a great question. Yes, we're all we're about halfway there on our goal to hire these individuals. We we went out with a very aggressive recruitment strategy. We didn't just put, you know, job announcements on USA jobs. We recruited through the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor certification, through LinkedIn, um, through the colleges and universities that offer these training programs. And we got more applicants than ever, and we are in the process of of filling all those vacancies.

So I'm wondering if you can address some of the expenditures, um, that we were taking a look at. Forty-nine thousand for fishing supplies, forty-six thousand on a UV printer for commercial - for a commercial printing company. I understand that you can't get into the specifics of, um, these, uh, you know, veterans' cases, but I'm wondering if you can answer this. Are the veterans who received those resources currently, um, running small businesses with these supplies, and have they been successful?

Uh yes, I'll let Miss Stovall address those specific cases, but we were um we did look into the cases that are the subject of the letter, and I will tell you that it was really um heartwarming to hear the the stories told as told by these veterans of their self-employment success, and the challenges that they had trying to find employment before they got to a VRNE counselor who helped them achieve their dream of having their own business, but I'll let Miss Stovall address those specific cases.

Yes, so thank you for the question, and so With regard to the um fish hatchery supplies that was purchased, the forty-nine thousand for that purchase, that is for a veteran that is participating in self-employment, and they are successfully operating their business. In fact, they reported um earnings of two hundred and thirty-seven thousand for um, twenty-twenty-four. Um, the veterans still in the program right now. We do have a requirement to follow them for up to a year before we close the case, to make sure that the uh program or the business is still viable and sustainable.

Okay. I'm over my time, so I yield back. Thanks.

General in the yields, the chair now recognizes my friend from the great state of Kentucky, Mister McCarvey.

Thank you, Mister Chairman. Thank you all for being here. Uh this program is so important because our veterans are so important. And the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program, or VRNE as we're calling it, this is something that veterans turn to when they're trying to rebuild their futures. They're they're looking for a path back to work, back to stability. back to independence. That's why every delay, every unclear message from VA, it has real-world, real-life consequences for these veterans and their families. Uh participation in VRAD has grown a lot in recent years because of the PACT Act. I think this is a good thing, this is a positive development. But too many veterans are walking into a system right now that's overwhelmed. And we gotta make sure that these veterans, sometimes they're waiting months to talk to a counselor for the first time. in the most extreme cases the way to stretch past five months. That is not a small inconvenience. That's a veteran sitting at home. That's a veteran who's unable to start school. That's a veteran who is not back to work, who is not beginning training, who is not moving forward. Uh, so what the veteran tells us, and the vet- and the data shows, is that the real challenge here is access and communication. Veterans can't reach their counselors. Appointments are rushed. Some are told to complete forms on their own that are meant to be filled out with the help of a super uh train. And when the process becomes really confusing, then the veterans they lose time, they lose their benefits, they sometimes just give up altogether. I wanna point out that is not the veteran's failure. That is a failure of the system that is supposed to be helping our veterans. So, at the end of the day, this program, we know it works uh when the veterans can actually use it, when they can get an appointment, when they can understand the process, when they can trust that the VA is focused on them and their success. That's what today should be about. Are the veterans getting what they need to build their future? Are we letting political theater getting in the way? Um, Ms. Delvin, I'll start with you, you heard me mention that we've seen VRNE wait times stretch from a couple of weeks to more than five months in some areas. What is VA doing right now, not in twenty twenty seven, not after another IT rollout, but right now to shorten those wait times for veterans who are stuck in limbo?

Thank you for the question. And and you're right, we were well on our way to reducing those wait times, before the government shut down. Unfortunately, during those forty-three days we were unable to process any applications or conduct counseling appointments. But we're working through it. We want our veterans to get into programs as quickly as possible. We're doing many different things. One of the things we're doing in the process of hiring is while those vacancies exist in certain stations, we're making sure to sort of equalize the work by distributing it more equitably across where we have staffing capacity. Mon- many of our veterans prefer the telecounseling appointments anyway, so Really doesn't matter if your counselor is in Milwaukee or in San Diego, right? As long as you can get your appointment, get into a rehab plan and get started on your way. So that's helped us to control time and we're bringing that timeliness back down again.

Thanks. It has to be brought down and and it also, it's not just the timeliness and the few seconds I've got left, it's communicating to the veteran what that is and then holding up your all's end of the bargain and just so important.

The gentleman's time is expired.

I yield back.

The gentleman yields, and I r- recognize myself for uh three minutes. Um. What's the educational requirement, Miss Devlin, for a VA counselor?

Master's level uh training and rehabilitation counseling, but we've recently expanded it to allow many other master's level degrees to count towards that requirement.

Okay. Uh, so we got something through the house, a bill that lowers that to a uh bachelor's degree requirement, which I I w- I went to VRNE myself, personally, and uh it you don't need a master's degree to be a counselor. Right after we got that passed, it was a couple weeks after they announced they're hiring these things into presence, about three hundred new counselors. So I'd like three thousand new counselors. But the education requirement is silly. That's an administrative uh restraint that the VA has put on itself. Uh what what's the average full employment rate from the last cycle for a veteran that goes through VRNE?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

So, of the veterans that go through the VRNE program, what's the full employment rate from this last cycle?

Um, of the veterans that went through, so last year we had ten thousand five hundred and twenty-seven actually be declared as a successful outcome. Fifty-five thousand three hundred and one entered a new rehabilitation plan during that year, and eighty-three thousand one hundred and eighty-eight continued pursuing a formal a previously developed plan.

This where does the percentage thirty-seven come into this?

I'm not sure where that's coming from.

That's if you look at the full employment rate. Um, how many How many jobs have graduates, and I know this is not the intended purpose of this specifically, how many jobs have graduates of VRNE created? Like for instance, the fish hatchery, which by the way, that is not a lot of money for a fish hatchery. I'll be honest, we've got one in our district. I don't know how small that joint is, but so how many how many people does that person employ? Do we know?

I'm not sure of that, so.

Okay, so these are the sorts of things that we need to start tracking because if we wanna invest you know Mr. Pappas brings up this amount of money for this commercial printing thing if we're if we're gonna invest a million dollars into a veteran and they're hiring fifty people that's a heck of a lot different than investing a million dollars into a veteran who is self-employed and not employing anybody else so if we we look at this program more holistically and understand that we want our veterans to be radically successful, I want this to be very available to everybody, but when we're we're looking at these numbers, we need to we need to have more metrics of like what what's actually happening, like what's the average of length of employment for a veteran following their case closing at VRN E?

Uh, so if you look at our longitudinal study which has been following veterans for about twenty years,

Yeah.

um their percentage of employment rate is seventy-four percent.

For how long?

Um well The oldest um category that we're following is from two thousand ten.

K.

So sixteen years.

So s- for s- the average amount a year said a person has of problems.

Is it?

Veterans who went through the program in two thousand ten.

Uh, I'm gonna respect my own role.

They're still in the program.

My time has expired. Uh, we are gonna go into a second round of uh questioning. I now recognize the ranking member for

You know what, you know what, just do five minutes. Whate- whatever you think.

Now I recognize the ranking member for five minutes. I think they're holding votes here.

Alright. Alright. Thanks for your generosity, Mr. Chairman. Um, Miss Devlin, uh, I understand the requests for VRNA resources are, uh, reviewed. They require approval. Could you talk a little bit more about, uh, the oversight and controls that are in place, uh, for these expenditures? Are there instances in which VA may decline a veteran's initial business model? And even if the business model is approved, are there, um, declines in terms of requests for resources?

Um, thank you for the question. Yes, we do have an an

Okay.

Yes, thank you, so we do have internal controls which start at the regional office, but there are um the plans that cost over fifty thousand dollars would come to me for review um during my time that I've been in this seat. for the past eight months I have had the opportunity to review three of those plans, um excuse me, five plans, um and one has been approved, one has been denied, and there are three others that are going through the process right now, but um when we look at those plans we are looking for viability, we are looking to determine if um it is a feasible feasible vocational goal for the veteran or not um and if they've considered all the criteria like um can this veteran complete traditional employment or not before we jump to self-employment so um on those basis are those are kind of what we look at also if the business is already an existing business that's not something that we would support under self-employment.

Okay, I appreciate that. Um regarding the fifteen thousand dollars that was spent on the massage chair, um I wonder if you have some additional context for that one. Does VA stand by the purchase and agree that it was needed?

Yes, so the massage chair was purchased for a hundred percent service connected disabled veteran um that suffered from some uh vascular as well as mental health conditions PTSD and or phobia so um we did consult with uh um VHA medical f- well professional occupational therapist who um approved the recommendation for that particular chair um and I would just like to say when we're, when we're, it's an independent living case, and so when we're looking at um what is appropriate for the veteran, I think we need to look at the whole person. And so this is one of those psychosocial um, you know, areas where we need to consider what is necessary for this veteran to be able to live independently in their community. And by being able to relieve the stress and anxiety, um, we were able to successfully rehab her where she could start to integrate into our community.

Thank you for that. Uh, the documents provided on VRNE spending from VA also show incredibly high spending on contracting. Um, in fact, the contracting dollars dwarf the actual spending on supplies for veterans. Um, so I'm wondering if you can just tell us more about why VA is contracting to this degree, spending millions of dollars on contracting within within VRNE.

Uh, yeah, uh, thank you for that question. So, um, I've been in the VA for a long time, and when I started as a as a counselor we had contracting back then. Contracting doesn't replace the need for a counselor. Contractors help support, but they can't make decisions. So they can um do the part of the process, for example, of assessing interest, aptitudes, abilities, helping the veteran explore career opportunities, developing some proposed uh avenues for the veteran to achieve those goals. And then they turn that work into a counselor who meets with a veteran and makes the final decisions and then um approves any purchases that might be required for that. We could also help have contractors support case management to help make sure we're getting grades and and you know supporting the veteran through their training. The contracts used to be done at the regional office level when I started thirty-one years almost thirty-one years ago, but ever s- um for many years now they've been centralized in central office, so it's sort of one giant contract vehicle um and then the regional offices issue task orders against them that creates greater control greater accountability, and better sort of fiscal um responsibility because we can get better pricing that way.

Ms. Howell, I'm wondering if you uh can uh answer the question about uh whether you do whether VA was spending uh this amount of money on contracting and how you view that.

Thank you for the question, sir. Um I believe Ms. Devlin spoke about contracting in her last testimony on VRNE, so we didn't really know what that looked like or what it meant to people in the field. Um I think if VR and E, if they're so overburdened um by people coming into the program or existing cases that they need to spend this kind of money for contracting, it begs the question like can we not just spend that money hiring additional staff with the understanding that there's gonna be onboarding, like you have just because you have that master's in rehabilitative counseling, you still need to learn the VA systems. You still need everyone knows what it's like to be new at a job. You gotta learn the way this stuff goes. I don't, sorry, I don't know if I should s- keep talking or if he's gonna get I don't think he noticed, but oh now he did. uh

General Sanders, sorry.

Well, no, cuz I'm looking a yield back.

Well, no, cuz I'm looking

I'm looking at this, so so

General recognizes uh Mr. McGarvey from the great state of Kentucky.

Thank you, Mr. President.

I'm gonna go back with you. Um, PVA has warned that VRNE is at a dangerous tipping point, that's a quote. Uh, you say this because they're high caseloads because of the administrative burden that's going on there. From your perspective, what is the single biggest barrier to preventing veterans? especially those with catastrophic disabilities from getting timely, meaningful, meaningful VR and E support.

Thank you for the question, sir. I think the thing that is most in the way for one of my members, uh, being able to successfully engage with the program is that thoughtful employment counseling which is what a VRC's job is. I think there's a a fundamental misunderstanding between the education level required for a VRC to do that employment long-term for a veteran with catastrophic disabilities. If we have a case like I am was a VRNE participant, the chairman was a VRNE participant, we are able-bodied veterans that do not have the same level of complexities as someone who is a member of my organization. If VRC's are spending their time doing all these administrative tasks and they're being pulled away from offering true employment counseling that does a disservice to our members we've spoken to many VRC's over the years and we're hearing that You know, we're trying to rate VRC's performance metrics by the same metrics that they are applying to claims raters, and these are fundamentally different services, and their delivery is completely different.

Mm-hmm.

If a VRC is spending time being thoughtful about the c- uh employment counseling they're delivering to veterans, that's showing up in their metrics and they're getting pressure from their management to improve the metrics for leadership. So I do think it's a fine line between allowing them to do their job, which again is rehabilitative counseling for complex disabilities and complex cases. A traditional education path, maybe someone without a bachelor's degree, that's fine. They can handle those cases that were like the chairmans or mines that don't have those complexities. But VRC's need to be allowed to offer thoughtful employment counseling for the veterans that need it.

Thank you, Miss Howell. Um, uh, appreciate that, and I would just say, for the veterans in the independent living track, the delays don't just slow down a career, they they affect the daily life of a veteran. And so what changes would make the biggest difference for those veterans right now? You talked about some of the problems, what changes would you make right now to make the biggest difference right now?

Thank you for the question, sir. Um, I don't know that fixing independent living has there's an immediate solution to this, but I do think that experienced VRC's who have been at this game a long time, they can create a sort of tiger team to handle these more complex cases so that, as we're onboarding these new VRC's that again are learning systems, the experienced folks, cuz independent living is, from what I have been told, a very complex thing to manage um as a c- as a VRC. So if we allow a tiger team of some sort, of experts who are well trained in processing all the paperwork needed for this, understand um the tracking mechanisms, the consultations

Thank you, Mister Chairman, I yield back.

The gentleman yields. Um, I just listening and we're having great parallel discussions here because we're trying to process what's going through and and it's great. Um, so the RES system, well let's clear some clear the air a little bit here. So, we have, we have two different things here, you're asking for more um counselors, which is why we lowered the educational threshold, because I fundamentally disagree that you need a master's degree. So we can get where the bo- the pool of potential applicants would be greater. That's great. And then you're a- you're asking for support staff. Well, the contractors are filling the position of the support staff now. And I think it's it's, I want these things to go through quickly, I want them to be efficient, and I want them to be very effective. And the ability to hire all these other people into the VA system, you know, in a timely manner so that backlogs and everything for the VRNE program, we wanna, we, we're gonna have to deal with the invi- what did Dick Cheney say? You don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have. So this is what we have right now, we're trying to get this Right. So, when when is this RAS gonna be on, they're rating this an employment system, when's that gonna be FOC or fully operational capable?

That's a great question. It is um in IOC right now, in all fifty-six regional offices, um it'll be fully enabled with all cases by Veterans Day.

Oh, that's a pretty good day.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

And then how many of these contracting positions are gonna be eliminated once that's FOC?

Contract support is basically surge support. So, it isn't that we have positions. We have contracts that enable us to surge when we need to. So, for example, we have a higher volume of applicants that hit the San Diego area all at once. We can leverage contractors to help support those counselors. These are people with the same credentials. Those credentials are re- important to be able to understand the physical and emotional aspects of disability, and how that relates to the labor market.

Okay, I get

There's a relevance to this education department.

I get it. So, Miss Howell, then how does that jive with what you said that we should have more permanent positions if the contractors that we're hiring in search capacity have the same qualifications as the people that you're saying, you want to be employed by the VA. Did I hear that right? So how h- h- h- that It it's it sounds like like you want two pieces of pie or something. So if if Miss Devlin is saying that the contractors that are being hired and are working at the VA have the same accreditation and qualifications as a permanent party person in the VA why are you asking for more VA employees if the if it's already being met by the contracting entity

well I'm not I don't have the numbers the data wasn't shared with me on the expenditures on what is spent on these contracts uh I did not have access to that information but what I can say is that we're in a surge moment right now

yeah

since I've been doing this work we have been over the threshold with or without contracting, the caseload has never been below one to one twenty-five in the four years I've been at PVA.

Right.

They still need a full-time staff to e- like to do these things, and it stands to reason that it might be cheaper to offer this stuff in-house rather than contracting. Additionally, when it comes to the contracting, we have been told from veterans that they're joining their intake call that's supposed to be a one-on-one with a counselor and them and four hundred of their closest battle buddies or on a Zoom with one person trying to do the in- like the intro sort of um orientation course for this.

I hear you. I'm just one thing that I w- I'm gonna push back on here. I don't I don't cheaper's not a word I'm gonna use when it comes to veterans. So efficiency, that sort of stuff, but not never cheaper, less expensive maybe, more efficient a hundred percent. We're not and I I know that we have not discussed this but I know Chris and I are six and seven and we don't talk about we're not gonna cheap our veterans anywhere. I'm and maybe that's not what you intended to say. Um, Miss Delvile, who certifies these contractors?

The, so the contracting officer puts the requirements in the contract, and the um the person who oversees the contract would review the resumes and confirm that they meet the requirements.

Okay, so a permanent Veterans Affairs Administration employee and this contractor, this same person is making sure they have this proper certification, correct?

So it's not a certification, it's an educational requirement, but yes, essentially when a when an employee is hired, a federal government employee is hired, it's part of the hiring process,

Yeah.

right, we verify. For a contractor, we we review the contract um the resumes that get submitted for the contract as they get submitted, but it's search capacity,

Okay.

so these are not employees.