Examining Housing Needs in Native Communities and S.5354 NAHASDA Reauthorization

Good afternoon. We call this hearing to order. Today the committee will consider S fifty-three, fifty-four, the Nahasda Modernization Act. This is legislation that I've introduced with the Vice Chairman, uh, to reauthorize and modernize the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act. We'll also take a broader look at the state of tribal housing and the Nahasda program. We had originally uh planned to hold this hearing back in July. Uh, it was postponed due to uh a family emergency, but that delay actually gave us some additional time to hear from tribal housing leaders and to incorporate several of their recommendations into what I think is an improved bill uh we introduced this before the August recess. This year marks the thirtieth anniversary of Nehastha. For three decades this landmark law has been built around a simple principle that has transformed tribal housing, that tribes, not Washington DC, are best positioned to determine the housing needs of their communities. Reauthorizing Nehasda has been a shared priority for Vice Chairman Schatz and me for several congresses. And this anniversary gives us an opportunity not only to reauthorize the law, but to ensure that it's ready to meet the housing challenges of the next thirty years. When I became chairman of the committee, I I asked my staff at the time, I said, take a look at Nahasda and and tell me where we can strengthen and modernize it. Let's just not do just straight reauthorization. Let's actually make sure that we are updating it. Um, at the same time, uh, Congress was considering a major national housing package. This was the road to housing. That legislation made, um, some pretty significant investments in housing. But despite my efforts and those of others, it did not make the commitment to tribal communities that I believe was needed. And that makes this reauthorization all the more important. Working with HUD, tribal leaders and housing stakeholders, we have developed legislation that streamlines environmental reviews, strengthens program administration, expands opportunities for home ownership, and provides new tools to address homelessness in native communities. One example is the bill's new home ownership flexibility provision. Similar to the flexibilities provided for non-tribal members in the Road to Housing Act, our bill would allow tribes the option to use up to twenty percent of their home ownership assistance funds to assist families earning up to a hundred, twenty percent of area median income. And this matters because we hear from so many, so many families, so many working families. Uh, whether they're teachers or health care workers, law enforcement officers, um, essential workers, but their, their problem is they earn just a little too much to qualify under current limits, but they still can't afford to buy a home in their community. So it's this, it's these folks that get caught in, in that, uh, awful situation. So rather than have the federal government make that decision for them, our bill gives tribes greater flexibility to decide how to meet their own housing needs and I think This is really what self-determination is all about. Um, we had the uh the good fortune to have Secretary Turner uh visit us in Alaska last summer. He came up to Nepa- Nepakiak. Nepakiak is a is a small village on the Kuskokwim River. It's accessible by air uh during uh, well I guess all the year, but uh boats sometimes and sometimes snow machine. But it it provides a pretty good sense of the housing challenges that face many of our rural Alaska communities because it's geographically isolated uh they experience um significant erosion, land subsidence, uh some severe weather. Uh while we were there we saw firsthand the progress of a decades long effort to move the community to safety because they've got a collapsing shoreline there and we we saw the the skid that the community uses to move the homes out of harm's way. Uh this is a, this is a village that is absolutely uh determined, um and their local leadership shows that uh they look to what their community needs, they're doing the work to make it happen, a great example of self-determination there. But I look forward to continuing to work with HUD, our committee members, and our housing mem- leaders to advance Nehasda because housing is foundational. to nearly every issue that this committee works on, from education and workforce development to public safety, health care, and economic opportunity. Stronger Native communities require housing programs that support them. And finally, before I close, I want to recognize Jad Atala as he marks eighteen years of public service with HUD's Office of Native American Programs. Jad has been a a trusted partner to tribes in Alaska and across Indian country, And I wanna thank him for his dedication to advancing tribal housing. So I'm asking unanimous consent to enter into the record several letters from tribal housing leaders that recognize Chad's Chad's service. Uh, Senator Senator Schatz, uh, the Vice Chair, is not able to be here this afternoon, uh, but he does have an opening statement that will be included as as part of the record. Uh before we turn to the witness panel, um Senator Armstrong, I understand that you might want to uh introduce one of the witnesses this afternoon.

Welcome, thank you. Thank you, Chair Mikalski, and I am honored today to introduce a distinguished leader from the great state of Oklahoma the Deputy Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation Brian Warner. As an Oklahoma I am very proud of the Cherokee Nation's leadership and the commitment that it has to strengthening communities across our state and beyond. And Deputy Chief Warner has been a strong advocate of something I particularly appreciate about our tribes in Oklahoma and that is preserving the Cherokee culture and language and expanding educational opportunities and strengthening our workforce development uh while supporting the health and well-being of our Cherokee family. So as a former educator, Deputy Chief Warner has worked to opportunities for Cherokee students, including higher education scholarships, public school support, access to STEM education and early childhood development. He has also been an active leader in the Cherokee Nation's rural economic development efforts, and has championed improved behavioral health and addiction services through his work as co-chair of the tribal advisory committee for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Deputy Chief Warner. Thank you for appearing before the committee today and I'm really honored to get to welcome you and I look forward to hearing your testimony.

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Armstrong. Uh and and welcome to you, Deputy Principal Chief Warner. We're we're pleased to have you with the committee. Uh we are also uh welcomed this afternoon by Hilary Atkin. Uh, Ms. Atkin is the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary for Native American programs at the Department of Housing and Urban Development here in Washington. And we're also joined by uh Alicia Puente Cackley, who is the Director of the Financial Markets and Community Investment Government Accountability Office, the GAO. So, welcome to all of you. Uh, I will remind you that we do have your full testimony. It will be part of the official hearing record. So, if you can keep your oral testimony to no more than five minutes so that we've got plenty of time, for questions. Um and with that we will begin with Deputy Chief Warner. Welcome.

Well, OCO, uh Chairman Makowski and members of the committee, I wanna say thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am Brian Warner, Deputy Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation. It is my honor to appear uh to appear before you on behalf of more than four hundred and seventy-seven thousand citizens of the Cherokee Nation and the National Congress of American Indians. Thirty years ago Congress recognized a simple but powerful truth. Tribal nations are best positioned to determine how housing resources should be invested in their own communities. That decision transformed housing in Indian country. It gave tribes the flexibility to build homes, expand ownership, rehabilitate aging housing, support veterans and elders, and strengthen communities according to our own priorities. Today, tribal nations across Indian country are united in support of reauthorizing and modernizing the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act, better known as the HOSDA. because we know this model works. Cherokee Nation e- e- experience is one example. Today the Housing Authority of the Cherokee Nation serves thousands of family each month through rental Assistance, Home Ownership, Rehabilitation, and related housing programs. Since twenty nineteen, the Cherokee Nation has constructed more than five hundred homes, completed more than thirty-five hundred housing rehabilitations, and expanded housing opportunities for veterans, elders, families, and workers. But our experience also demonstrates something larger. Good housing policy is more than building homes, it's about building strong tribal nations. Housing supports workforce recruitment, it strengthens public safety, it improves access to health care, and it drives economic development. In Adair County, our Cherokee uh our Cherry Tree Grow initiative combines housing rehabilitation with infrastructure improvements, public safety enhancements, and outdoor recreation to revitalize one of our historic communities. Through HUD section one eighty-four, demonstration program, the Cherokee Nation became the first tribe in the nation to construct workforce housing for Cherokee Nation marshals, helping us recruit and retain law enforcement officers who keep our community safe. We also view the housing as a tool for preserving our language and our culture. Through our Cherokee Speaker Village initiative, we are creating housing where fluent Cherokee speakers can live in a community with one another, strengthening opportunities to pass our language to future generations. Housing is simply not preserving buildings, it helps us preserve our identity. Cherokee Nation has not waited for Washington DC to solve our housing challenges. Through our Housing Jobs and Sustainable Communities Act, we have invested more than one hundred and ninety million in housing a- and community development since twenty nineteen. This law also will harness at least forty million on three year cycles into perpetuity. In our Public Health and Wellness Fund Act, we have budgeted more than five point five million for housing support services annually, and we are poised to invest tens of millions of additional dollars for affordable housing construction in the years ahead. Both these laws draw from our tribal businesses and health care third-party revenue rather than federal funds. But these investments are designed to complement, not replace the federal trust responsibility embodied in the HOSTA. For much of the last decade, the Indian housing block grant formula funded remaining essentially flat at about six hundred and forty-five million annually adjusting for inflation HUD spends roughly that the same today on IHBG than it did when it, Nehasda was enacted thirty years ago. Congress took a bold step in FY twenty-four by boosting the IHBG funding to one point one one billion. The next step is to modernize Nehasda. The legislation before you provides tribal nations with practical tools to meet today's challenges. It streamlines environmental reviews, reduces unnecessary administrative burdens. Shrinktons section one eighty-four home ownership opportunities. Permanently authorizes tribal hud vash for native veterans and gives tribes greater flexibility to address local housing needs. These are practical practical reforms. They mean less time navigating bureaucracy and more times building homes. The question before Congress is not to whether NAHAZA has succeeded, because it has. The question before Congress is whether to build upon its success by enacting this proposed NAHAZA reauthorization. Good housing policy is more than building homes. Again, it's about building strong tribal nations. I will rec- I will close with a request. Now, Haase was last reauthorized in two thousand eight, and over the last thirteen years, Congress has had plenty of opportunities to revisit this landmark law. This is the third time Cherokee Nation under the Haaskin-Warner administration has testified before Congress on this very topic. We need to get this across the finish line before the end of the calendar year. Congress could have included reauthorization language in the recently enacted twenty first century road to housing act, but it chose not to. It is imperative that we finish the job today. On behalf of the Cherokee Nation and the National Congress of American Indians, I respectfully urge Congress to enact the Nahasda Modernization Act of twenty twenty six. And I say wado for this opportunity. Thank you for the time to testify today.

Deputy Chief, thank you for that, and I appreciate your your admonition to us at the end to get this over the finish line, it has been too long and we do not need to have more excuses as to why it remains unresolved. So know that we will continue to work with those

Yes.

Well well

at the Cherokee Nation and and across the country.

Thank you, Chairman.

Thank you. Ms. Atkin, welcome.

Thank you, Chairwoman Murkowski, uh Vice-Chairman Chutt and members of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. for this opportunity to testify on the housing needs in Native communities. I would also like to acknowledge and thank the committee's staff, not only for coordinating this hearing, but for their ongoing engagement with HUD staff on issues that impact Native American muni- communities across our nation. I also want to thank and recognize my fellow panelists, Doctor Puente Cackley, Deputy Principal Chief Warner of Cherokee Nation, and say thank you for recogniti- recognizing Jaditala. a colleague of mine for many years. As the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary for Native American programs, I have had the privilege of meeting with tribal leaders from across Indian country, both in their communities and here in Washington DC, to learn firsthand about the housing challenges they face and the innovative solutions they are developing. Serving as Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary has also given me the opportunity to hear directly from tribal leaders about what we need to do to strengthen and improve HUD's programs, so that they better support housing opportunities and economic advancement in tribal communities. Native American communities continue to face severe overcrowding, a shortage of affordable housing, and inadequate infrastructure. These compounding factors create significant barriers to prosperity and self-sufficiency. At the same time, we are seeing some of the most innovative housing strategies and developments happening in tribal communities today. HUD recognizes the solemn duty to uphold the federal government's treaty and trust responsibilities to tribes. Our staff at HUD work tirelessly alongside our tribal partners to find practical solutions and overcome obstacles while also promoting successful practices that so many tribes have employed to support their people. This year marks the thirtieth anniversary of the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act of nineteen ninety-six, NAHAZTA. Over the past three decades, NAHAZTA has helped build, acquire, and rehabilitate more than a hundred and sixty thousand homes in Indian country, while furthering tribal sovereignty and tribal self-determination. By recognizing the unique government-to-government relationship between the federal government and tribal nations, NAHAZA has enabled tribes to and HUD to work together to address long-standing housing barriers and economic stability. NAHAZA's flexible, locally driven model has built new and preserved existing housing stock across Indian country, from remo remote Alaska Native villages to Southwest Pueblo communities to the Timberlands of the East and Pacific Northwest and the tribal nations of the Plains, Now, HaZTA has continued to help HUD carry out its mission and uphold the federal government's trust responsibility. Moreover, the housing needs of the five hundred and seventy-five federally recognized tribes vary significantly across geographic, economic, and cultural traditions, and tribes are best positioned to develop solutions that reflect the unique circumstances of their communities. NAHAZA provides a flexible framework to design and implement housing programs tailored to those needs. The reauthorization and modernization of NAHAZA represents an important opportunity to work towards the goals of strengthening the relationship between the federal government and tribal nations by streamlining requirements, updating programs, and strengthening tribal self-determination in housing. Secretary Turner remains committed to working with tribal nations to expand housing opportunities in In- Indian country, consistent with our trust responsibilities and statutory authorities. Hud appreciates the committee's efforts and looks forward to continue working with the committee to refine and strengthen this legislation. Hud remains committed to working alongside tribal nations to ensure that families acro- across Indian country have access to safe, affordable, and stable housing for generations to come. Thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you today.

Thank you, Miss Adkin. And now we will hear from Doctor uh Puente Cackley.

Chairman Murkowski and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide preliminary observations from our ongoing body of work on Native American housing and homelessness issues. Native American communities, including American Indian, Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian populations, have long faced housing challenges, including poor housing conditions, overcrowding, and homelessness. These communities also face obstacles to developing new housing, such as insufficient infrastructure, remote locations, and restrictive land use regulations. In fact, the issues of housing and homelessness are interrelated in profound ways. Today I'd like to share with you some early results from two engagements we are conducting on Native American housing and homelessness. First, from our housing program work, Our preliminary analysis identified thirty federal programs that can provide housing support through grants and mortgage assistance targeted to American Indian, Alaska Native, and Native Hawaiian populations. All twelve of the tribes we spoke with for this part of our work said they used federal support such as Indian housing block grant funds to maintain existing housing and many said they used federal support to help build new housing as well however many tribes said the federal funds they received did not Tribes we spoke with said federal housing support was generally helpful, but they also cited its limitations. Program restrictions such as income limits affected tribes' ability to support housing needs of middle-income households. The inability of federal funds to keep pace with construction, rehabilitation, or maintenance costs was another major concern. And just the low availability of housing in tribal areas limited tribes' use of some programs. such as certain home ownership programs. Turning now to the challenges tribes face and the strategies they use in addressing homelessness, we spoke to nineteen tribes and tribal organizations who told us that while tribal communities experience both sheltered and unsheltered homelessness, doubling up or temporarily staying with others is also widespread in t- tribal areas. Doubling up can lead to overcrowded living conditions and unsafe situations. For example, when I met with a group of residents from Teller, Alaska, while participating in a congressional trip investigating tribal housing issues, they described significant negative effects of overcrowding, such as excessive humidity from too many people enclosed in too small a space leading to dangerous mold which then caused health problems for residents and serious deterioration of the housing stock itself. The need to double up is attributed by HUD and the communities themselves to a to a shortage of housing. For example, one tribe we spoke with told us they needed four hundred to five hundred additional units to adequately house their current population, given the level of overcrowding. To address homelessness, including overcrowding, some tribes focused on developing additional housing on or near tribal lands. Others operated seasonal shelters, year-round shelters, or transitional housing. Some tribes provided financial assistance or supportive services for individuals experiencing or exiting homelessness, and some partnered with or referred people to local nontribal service providers. Many of the tribes we met with discussed using IHBG or supplemental funding made available during the COVID-19 pandemic to support their homelessness strategies however they said the lion's share of IHBG funds were needed to maintain the tribe's already existing housing, with limited amounts available for homelessness related act efforts. And while many tribes used COVID-19 relief funds to build or operate shelters, or provide emergency housing assistance during the pandemic, they didn't expect those efforts to be sustainable once the funding expired. Most of the tribes we spoke with are not participating in the Federal Homelessness Assistance Program known as Continuums of Care, or COC's. Some tribes found the COC program to be difficult to navigate and burdensome to participate in. especially tribes with limited staff capacity. Tribes also had concerns about their ability to access and compete for funding when their members' experiences of homelessness, such as doubling up, may not meet HUD's requirements. The same is true for COC fair housing and nondiscrimination requirements, which they believe may conflict with tribes' desire to prioritize serving tribal members. Some tribes participate in the tribal HUD VASH program, Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you all for for your testimony uh today and um just your willingness to to participate on these very important issues. Uh I wanna direct my first question um uh to focus on section five of the legislation. I mentioned this in in my opening, this is the new provision that would allow tribes and tribally designated housing entities uh as well as the Department of Hawaiian homelands to use up to twenty percent of their home ownership assistance to serve families that are earning up to a hundred and twenty percent of area median income. And again, my comment about those that are are are in the middle here, and uh, Doctor Cackley, you you speak to this um in your comments and in your written testimony. Um can you share, I mean you've you you have you've given an example of of the situation in in Teller there, so I know you've been up to to my state, we appreciate that. But how does this current eighty percent area median income limit our tribal members? Whether again, you're a teacher, you're a law enforcement, you're a tribal administrator, who who are maybe just over the limit, uh but again do not uh are are not able to afford homes in their community. Can you speak to what you heard while you were out there?

Um, absolutely. Uh, we definitely talked to to tribes not only in Alaska but but um across the US. And the issue with the challenges of of serving the middle income um tribal members is something that was raised in in in many places um the um in some instances, tribes talked to us about the fact that that um they have there there may be other funding sources, they're not a enough to to um to actually serve the they're not large enough, they're not easy to get, and so um not being able to use um IHBG funds because of the of the um income limit means that they just they just aren't able to to serve those um populations. They also talked about the fact that um some of their tribal members who may leave the reservation say to um to get educational opportunities to go to college they can't come back because there's no place for them to live well. They they, as you said, are earning just too much and um and there isn't something available. Um and we heard the same thing from the Department of Hom- Hawaiian Homelands that they have similar challenges in serving the this population.

Well and then you have those who who wanna try to come back, there isn't housing, um and so it ends up being in this doubling up situation or tripling up as it as it may be. Um Ms. Adkin, um So within this uh this section five um we give each tribe or or TDHE the choice to address the the these missing middle families these essential workers, the young families that are again earning just above the income limit and can't buy a house out there. Some tribes want the flexibility to meet these home ownership needs. Um uh we certainly know the high cost of housing, the need for more working families, but If a tribe, if a tribe uses a part of its own allocation to assist these households with incomes that are again just slightly above the current limit, would that reduce another tribe's allocation? Um, could it, could it more broadly impact the formula? How does HUD view this?

Thank you, Senator. Uh, we do not expect this provision to have a meaningful adverse impact on the formula or allocations. Uh the formula is based on need and FCAS. It is not reduced because a tribe chooses to serve a family at a higher income tier. Uh there are some tribes that do not currently accept their annual formula allocation, and maybe they would choose to accept it to serve um those types of folks, but it's a very small portion of the overall program uh that makes that choice currently.

Okay, so it's not something that you're looking at and saying we need to um resolve that in any way.

No, we expect minimal impact.

Okay, okay. Um, I'm I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna turn to my colleagues here in just a second, but let me let me ask you, Deputy Chief uh Warner, uh in your experience um uh with housing on Cherokee Nation, uh will this address a a a need where you have those who again are just above the income limit?

Yes, uh thank you, Chairman. Yeah, speaking for the Cherokee Nation, uh it absolutely will. Uh we we run into these all the time. I I don't need a spreadsheet or anything else to tell me because I see the faces, each and every day. I take the phone calls, I take the visits. Uh we did a a housing study of our own and found that we uh an estimated housing investment that is needed for the Cherokee Nation only is one point seven five, billion dollars. About six hundred plus six thousand plus uh households are on a waiting list and a lot of times these individuals, while they're waiting on that waiting list, other ho- other tribal programs have elevated them up and now they don't meet that need, and we feel like that there is a big chunk of people. We we some in some instances we know where these people are, we know what they're doing, a lot of them work for us, uh having over fourteen thousand employees at the Cherokee Nation in our businesses. So we just wanna make sure that we we give that leg up, that hand up to those hous- those households that have been through trials, been through tribulations, and have found their way to to taking a hold to that opportunity, but then just finding themselves just a just a little bit outside those income guidelines and we know from past in the COVID-19 pandemic where we were able to utilize uh COVID dollars and uh ARPA funds to move some of those uh income guidelines as needed that we see a great need there and we know that we have a whole of people that feel like they are stuck in the middle.

Yeah, we're hearing it all. Good, thank you for that, I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Senator Smith.

Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I appreciate very much you and uh Vice Chair Schatz and your work on this bill. I think it's really important and I know that we've been working on the Haasda reauthorization for a long time, so I appreciate your dedication and and persistence. And um, Madam Chair, I also just wanna uh take a moment of personal privilege to recognize Chair Michael Fairbanks, um, chair of the White Earth Nation and representatives from White Earth who are in the audience today. Um, many of our, um, many folks are here of course because of NCAI, so, uh, it's great to see you, um, chair Fairbanks. And, you know, so I know that we all can agree that, um, uh, the Nahasda reauthorization is long overdue and that the needs of Indian country have changed a lot since the, um, last bill expired. And so I wanna actually talk with you, uh, Deputy Chief Warner. Thank you so much for being here today. Um, I, I can tell that this conversation, you, I appreciate you being here in good spirit and I can also tell that this is a bit frustrating because we've talked about um these things before. Um, but I'm wondering if you could just help us understand how this long overdue reauthorization, I mean, w- w- like what makes it hard that it hasn't been reauthorized? What, how does this get in the way of the housing work um that you are doing or wanna be doing um in the Cherokee Nation? What's the I mean, I'm trying to understand it more clearly what the cost of of our inaction is.

Yep. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Senator, and a great question. I think the cost is it's been time, uh, so many so many times. Uh, if you look at the NAHA's authorization, uh, one thing about the the funding, we we are appreciative of those continued uh funding efforts as we've moved along. But as my uh testimony stated that we uh those those levels have remained at the original level so due to the cost inflation all these other pieces, Right. that's one aspect of it. A lot of the other aspects of it, there's provisions that are within this new modernization act that will do exactly that, it will modernize it, it will make it a tool that way that it the folks that are working behind the scenes that are behind the curtain getting things done, that they don't have duplicative reporting when you start to add two different types of federal funding together. Mm-hmm. Uh another way is uh environmental uh review, we don't ever want to we We leave environmental protections in because it's a must, but we don't the those same standards of that funding and having to redo that review all over and over. Being able to put HUD on a time clock, Mm-hmm. uh if you will, when you look at if we do a waiver for an environmental review of that sixty days, it has to be answered. That's another piece that will help move us along. There's so many things here that uh that have stymied what we've done. Obviously, money is one thing, but time is of the essence, Right. and our our citizens, They wanna hear the sound of swinging hammers. They wanna hear that saw running. They wanna see dirt turning on their land. And these are the important pieces. Uh, and I, and I think it's very important to understand that nation to nation, although we have so many similarities across the Indian country, each tribal nation is unique to its own standard.

Mm.

And some nations have been uh, they have more opportunity, if you will, to to move and and be more fluid. But but in the end um having that that standard of looking at um, you know, taking that it if we accomplish what C- Congress provides, that flexibility and those resources are two of the big main key components of what we're gonna do.

Mm-hmm. I've I've absolutely. So it's it's both it costs time, time costs money, everything costs more anyway, so having updated programs is just gonna make a big difference. And I think also implicit in what you're saying is that there are, you know, many different tribes of many different sizes, tribal nations. Some tribal nations have different capacity, um, to try to navigate these complicated federal programs.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And that is often a big barrier,

Yep.

I know, for tribal nations in Minnesota who are trying to figure out how to navigate these complex programs.

That's bad.

Those administrative burdens can be tedious and time-consuming. And a lot of times the those tribes don't have the, uh, the infrastructure in place within their own tribe to handle that administrative

Right.

burden and that that creates that barrier then you just keep moving an individual, down the list, the waiting list continues to grow, or do you shut this waiting list down?

Right.

Those are real things. And when you shut a waiting list down, that sends fear throughout all out those other individuals. And it and it starts to reduce hope that there's an opportunity for me,

Mm-hmm.

because we look past to the back to the seven generations and we understand where we're at today but we're planting a seed for the next seven generations. Those individuals have been yet to be formed in the womb and and in tribal nations, they hold dearly to their community values and and housing is a

Mm-hmm. That's right. And I, you know, I was struck by the conversation about um overcrowding, which is um a, you know, kind of a a polite word for understanding the broad cultural value in tribal nations that you don't let your relatives sleep outside. Um and so you you you make space, you make room even when there physically isn't room, and um that has um that, you know, that has that has l long and lasting impacts on folks. Yeah, I think a l old old folks, but especially also young folks who are trying to

Yes, ma'am.

figure out how to um how to how to make it work. Um, I I know I'm out of time, uh, Chair Murkowski, I just want to appreciate what you said about um how many of us worked hard to include some of these provisions or provisions relating to native housing in the road to housing bill we weren't successful you and I have worked on many of these um proposals over the years including making improvements to the continuum of care um program so that it works um for native um folks, and of course the Senate has passed NAHSTA. Um, we we know we know what to do. We just need to finish the job. Thank you.

Yeah.

I was Minnesotan pretty polite for Minnesota.

Yeah, that that that was pretty polite. We appreciate that. We're gonna finish the job. Senator Armstrong.

Uh, thank you, Chair Murkowski. Uh, first of all, uh, I'll start with Uh, Deputy Chief Warner, and this is on, I believe it's in section twenty-two of the bill clarifies that CDFIs are approved lenders for section one eighty-four home loans. And that kinda caught my attention uh when I looked through the bill. Can you elaborate on how the one eighty-four home loan program addresses home financing issues unique to Indian country?

Yes, sir. Thank you, Senator. Uh, I think section one eighty-four exists. because mortgage lending on tribal lands a lot and trust land, it presents a uh an issue many times with conventional mortgage uh products. Uh they're just not too designed to address some of those things that you see. Uh the program one eighty-four uses federal guarantee and on tribal trust land, a mortgage on a home and leasehold interest rather than underlying trust land. And and the big piece for me, uh these CDFIs, they're valuable uh because they already work. directly in a lot of Native communities. Native communities, they rely on trust, trusting one another, building that relationship um and uh so they can, you know, understand that the land, credit, financing issues, they already have a pretty good uh idea of how to do that. Uh the provision does not replace traditional lenders, uh and it expands the number of qualified institutions uh over time that can utilize section one eighty-four uh to get that capital.

OK. So so it's somewhat related to the fact that the land that the housing is on is in in trust and therefore it's difficult to get a conventional loan on that.

Many times, yes sir, yes sir.

Yeah. Thank you. Um, let's see. Let me go next to um uh Miss Atkin. Can you give a summary on how tribes generally receive the housing funding and and where I'm going

Thank you, Senator. Uh, you're asking me to explain the formula funding and how it gets out to communities?

Yeah, and and kind of what the primary features are. It seems like seems like we have such a variety of tribes that are affected by housing and some which have access to economies that are pretty significant and some that don't. And so it's not clear to me how the federal government decides and allocates that funding when there's such a variety of of opportunities um for N economies.

Okay, thank you, thank you for elaborating. Um, quite frankly the formula is pretty complicated. Um, there are some main factors that look at need. Um, it was negotiated with. tribal leaders. Um so at this point we have um a program negotiated, gone through negotiated rule making, um looks at different factors as agreed to with the tribes. Um once we get funds appropriated from you all, we work to run the allocation formula, uh which is done in accordance with that negotiated rule, uh get that money through some internal processes, and then get the money out into the communities. Um so in some ways there's a lot to it because what it was negotiated does bring a lot into it, but in some ways uh there's not because we do what is uh outlined in the negotiated rule, we put it through the processes that are required and we get it out as fast as we can.

Okay, so that that negotiation takes place each year or after? After h what what's the frequency of that negotiation on the

There's no set frequency to the negotiated rule making. Uh the last time that we had a negotiated rule making um was after Nahas' reauthorization.

Okay.

Uh so that is one trigger. If Nahasa is reauthorized, we will go into negotiated rule making. Otherwise um there's no uh name trigger.

Okay. And so how does the how does the federal government on one hand, how do they um accept the representation and making sure that there's fair representation of all the tribes?

That's a great question, Senator. Um I'd be happy to get back with my team and get you some more details on that. Uh the last time we had a negotiated rulemaking I did participate, but I don't I'm not familiar with all the details.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Um and um next really uh again for miss Atkin on the um federal permitting regime and I heard dep- deputy um chief comment on this but how much delay do you think is coming from the environmental permitting and kind of the redo of the environmental permitting that the deputy chief mentioned do you have do you have a good measure on that

Thank you for the question, Senator. Uh, I think it's hard to say exactly how much delay is caused by um, some might say some inefficiencies in the environmental review process.

You're you're Minnesota polite too, it sounds like.

Um Uh, Michigander polite.

Okay. Mm.

Um, I we do have some averages we look at from time to time to get a sense uh for the timing and be happy to provide that to you uh and your staff. Um there are f some flexibilities and efficiencies in the the HASS reauthorization, um which should help with the delays that people experience now.

Okay, great. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Uh-huh.

So I'll put this back up.

Thank you. Um thank you all for being here. Um, Miss Adkins, let me follow up on that because that was one of my questions on the per meeting, uh to the extent that you could provide us the challenges now and hopefully the changes to the for the better, if not as Nahasda gets um passed in into law, I would like to see that. My understanding is the there's some challenges with um permitting right now environmental reviews and it's slowing down some of the development. So I am hopeful this is gonna speed some of that up. So whatever you could provide to the committee, I would appreciate. Um, Deputy Chief, let me ask you this, you talked um a little bit about um the pairing of stable housing with supportive services. And, yeah, and that helps Native veterans build and rebuild their lives and remain connected to to their communities. Can you speak to, uh, the benefits of permanently authorizing VASH, um, this program and what it means to our veterans and and Native veterans?

Yes, thank you, Senator. Well, and we all know that, uh, how we all hold our natives in high regard. Uh our native veterans, uh especially we've served uh at a very high rate amongst the population uh for uh since time immemorial on this land. Um we uh I think for us what it would help to do, it bring consistency to a program. It would bring uh it'd be something that we know is coming, that that if that gets permanently authorized in this bill that is something that is paramount for those veterans. I can paint a story for you of we do uh we get twenty vouchers. of those uh rental assistance vouchers a year. We've got sixty individuals, and and this has been since I was on tribal council legislative branch of twenty seventeen uh when these uh HUD-VASH programs started in and uh uh you can see that that

Mm-hmm.

sixty that's not very many when we we go to our veteran programs and we do these things, but the uh the goal here is to find these individuals in a stable environment. I can tell you so many stories. Uh one story We've got a a female veteran, she comes in. She's looking for financial stability. She qualifies for HUD-VASC. She's excited. She gets in this rental property. All of a sudden she gets a new career, a new job, and she moved into home ownership. Well, guess what that does? That creates another slot for this individual. She she upskilled uh her life and took that opportunity. But for us, we want to offer more for our veterans and from the Cherokee Nation's perspective, uh we would like to have that where, hey, this program is actual absolutely here, it's not just a demonstration grant program for veterans. Um, cuz that's hard to say to a veteran, this is a demonstrate, we need to demonstrate what we're doing. Then over time, when will this become permanent? So those are some of the things that uh is very meaningful to our tribe.

Thank you. But Doctor uh Cackley, I also caught what you said, even if we are to reauthorize VASH, is there a concern that there's not enough supply of housing that would be able to accommodate the need um for this program?

Um, yes,

Yeah.

there there is definitely concern that that the um housing supply, whether for veterans or for for um uh uh any p any part of the population that i that is currently um experiencing or at risk of homelessness, um that that that's a that's a concern um i

But that is that's currently, if we are to reauthorize this, that might help with that supply in conjunction with passing the twenty-first road to housing act.

I think that's right,

Do you think that would address some of the issues?

as i the reauthorization making the program permanent and and um it would do w w would be helpful in just in terms of of um uh giving stability to uh both the people who are who

Right.