Hearings to consider pending calendar nominations.

come to order and i apologize to our two witnesses i've apologized to my colleagues and i apologize to all those who have been sitting in the room waiting for this hearing to start uh i guess nothing is unavoidable but uh it's been difficult to keep today's schedule on time and i'll do my best to make it up to my colleagues in particular and the witnesses still need uh our cooperation so uh I'm not too worried about the two of you being angry at me.

Since, since none of us have ever been late before to a committee meeting, we'll excuse you just this once.

Uh, that's so kind of you, such a, it's proving that was sort of bipartisan uh effort it is to, in this committee. Um. Look, we're we're here to hear uh the testimony and consider the nominations of of two individuals, Gary Shatswell to be the Assistant Secretary of Veterans Affairs for Information and Technology and Michael Tierney to be the Assistant Secretary of Veterans Affairs for accountability and whistleblower whistleblower protection. I appreciate your willingness to serve. Uh, there are important issues that come with your positions, and uh, I look forward to the committee asking the necessary questions to determine uh, the qualifications and capabilities and the appropriateness of of confirming your nomination. It's particularly true when there's the uh, the timing of the rollout of new electronic health records. it's back on track after a lengthy pause and artificial intelligence is is transforming every sector, it's critical that the VA to have a strong and qualified chief information officer. I look forward to hearing from Mister Shatswell, if he's confirmed how he would lead that monetization effort, safeguard data, uh, and effectively integrate automation and AI in the department to increase access to care benefits to veterans and their families to rely on. Likewise, I look forward to hearing from Mister Tierney, about how, if confirmed, he would increase accountability, transparency and trust among veterans, caregivers, survivors and the VA staff members, as well as taxpayers and the American public. The VA, as we know, supports millions of veterans and beneficiaries, employs hundreds of thousands of employees, and operates medical facilities and regional offices, and cemeteries around the globe with a budget that has totaled more than five hundred billion dollars in fiscal year FY twenty-seven. Accountability is not an option and it's a it's essential. I'm grateful to both of you for being here and for your uh willingness, your eagerness perhaps to take on the challenges that I just described and all, all those other challenges that we may not even recognize today. And with that I I yield to the ranking member. Senator Blumenthal.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um These are two critical positions. whistleblowers play a critical role in bringing fraud waste and abuse to light and they can actually save lives in the fiscal year twenty twenty five there were more than forty three hundred complaints but only thirty two disciplinary recommendations the gao found last year that the ba is unable to track corrective actions taken in whistleblower cases and does not have accurate data about settlement agreements. This year's budget proposal fails to keep pace with inflation and keeps staffing levels stagnant. The request doesn't account for additional manpower needed for tracking cases as recommended by the GAO. It certainly doesn't account for the thirty-one percent increase in complaints and disclosures. During the fiscal year twenty twenty five and the budget request wouldn't support the department's intent to expand the office's authority to proactively investigate unreported whistleblower retaliation which would increase the workload immensely this is a recipe for continued failure and if confirmed mister tierney you will have to demonstrate the backbone, stand up to this administration and to the president of the united states and say we need to protect whistleblowers we need to do more and invest more and provide the tools and authority that are needed to effectively do this job we owe it to our veterans uh likewise mister chatswell if you're confirmed you'll be responsible for managing a technology system i've been in the senate for close to sixteen years like senator moran has been a classic story of government failure and it is ongoing and i'm not gonna go into all the details i'm gonna ask that my full statement be put in the record

without objection

but um plainly this system has suffered from massive cost overruns it still is failing to work as intended fifteen or more years ago and the congress is gonna need your commitment to ensure that there are appropriate guardrails in transparency in how the va uses ai and automation now features that couldn't have been envisioned fifteen years ago so i look forward to hearing more from you um about your plans for the future And I hope that they will allay some of the concerns that I think we have and should have about whether you will be independent sufficiently to save the administration. In effect, this ain't working for a veteran. Because we need that independence. Thank you, Mister Chairman.

Senator Blumenthal, thank you. Mister Shatswell and Mister Tierney, uh, before being recognized for your opening statement, would you please stand and raise your right hand? hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give before the US Senate Committee on Veterans Affairs will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God if so please respond affirmatively and you have by the records should note both have done so thank you very much please be seated and uh Mister Shatswell you are now recognized for your opening statement.

Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today as the nominee to serve as the Assistant Secretary for Information and Technology and Chief Information Officer for the Department of Veterans Affairs. I am deeply grateful to the President, President Donal- Donald J. Trump for this honor and for his confidence in me and I'm thankful to Secretary Douglas A. Collins for his trust. I sit before you, a man who loves God, my family, and my country. So I begin with God. I am filled with gratitude to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whose words have guided my life. In John fifteen he says, " There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend." Those words describe the ethos of every man and woman who has worn this nation's uniform, placing something larger than themselves above their own comfort, safety, and in some cases, their lives. If confirmed, honoring their sacrifice and service will be a guiding light. To my family, I want to acknowledge my three amazing children who are watching online, Julia, Elizabeth, and Garrison. I love you more than words, and I'm so proud of who you are and how it shows up in your faith, service, and work. My family name, though uncommon, has deep roots. John Shatswell built his first home in Ipswich in sixteen thirty five. Thomas Shatswell was a drummer boy for the Patriots in the Revolutionary War. Nathan- Colonel Nathaniel Shatswell fought for the Union in the Civil War. Of the eight boys in my father's family, six served, including my father. My uncle Kenny returned from Vietnam wearing a purple heart. I have cousins, nieces, nephews that have served. Before my father passed, I took him regularly to the VA in Tacoma, Washington, and saw firsthand what the VA means to those who served and those who love them. Finally, to my country. I was raised in an extraordinary family that l- formed my love for America. We traveled extensively singing gospel music. When I was ten years old, we toured Europe, including behind the Iron Curtain. I remember feeling the oppression. as we crossed those borders. And I remember the n- how the next time I recited the Pledge of Allegiance, tears ran down my face. American freedom became real to me. Since joining the VA as Senior Advisor to Secretary Collins on December first of twenty twenty five, I've met with senior leaders in the central office, medical centers, clinics, and cemeteries around the country. I sat with many veterans and heard their stories. That time of listening was invaluable. From my industry experience, I began asking, " What if?" What if we connected with service members when they enlisted and stayed present through active duty, transition, and the rest of their lives? No one left behind. What if we eliminated, repeatedly asking veterans the same questions and the same information? What if, what if rather than digitizing old paper processes, We re-imagined them in digitally native ways. It has been a blessing to witness the breadth of support this country provides its veterans. But frankly, we can and must do better when it comes to information technology. My conversations with leadership and individual contributors have revealed a few common themes. We need a culture of transparency and accountability, achievable through agile program management, which will also accelerate mission delivery. we must go faster. Regarding artificial intelligence, we need clear, bright-lined guardrails of security and privacy, enabling a green light to drive productivity and human decision-making. We need to leverage our enterprise data as a strategic asset, strengthening security and unlocking benefits we cannot even fully understand. My resume highlights thirty years of executive leadership, hyper-growth, turn-around management, yet there are countless untold stories. For example, I created and taught the first web development course at Microsoft in the mid nineties. I ask hard questions and I do hard work. I've had the privilege of meeting with several of you, and in those conversations about improving service to our veterans, that has deepened my commitment. If confirmed, I will support the secretary and this committee to prioritize, execute, and deliver. In loving God, my family, and this country, the thread of service is in my DNA. Mister Chairman and members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and to be considered for this position. I look forward to answering your questions.

Mister Sh- Shetswell, thank you for your statement. Now, Mister Tierney.

Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. It is a genuine honor. I want to begin by acknowledging my family members who are here with me today. My wife of twenty-six years, Margaret, and two of my children, my son Michael, a rising second class midshipman at the United States Naval Academy, and my younger daughter, Caroline. a rising freshman at the University of California, Berkeley. My older daughter Madeline is preparing for her graduation at the University of Chicago, where she is a Business Economics major. Thank you also to President Trump and Secretary Collins for their confidence in me. There is a quote often attributed to Sir Thomas More, the English lawyer and philosopher, that has relevance today. "In matters of law, morality aside, one must remember that the law itself is the foundation of justice, and all who practice it must not evade it. In the practice of being a lawyer, I was reminded daily of the importance of the principle to simply follow the law. My legal career spans thirty years, first as a litigator, then as a corporate attorney, and senior partner at a Philadelphia law firm, then as in-house counsel to the federal government. I've led large teams through complex, high stakes matters. In one of my larger engagements, I managed a team of forty lawyers through my client's successful five hundred and sixty million dollar acquisition of Philadelphia's two major daily newspapers. I also represent the Delaware River Port Authority for more than fifteen years, serving as senior outside counsel. Most recently I've served served as deputy legal advisor of the US Department of State and previously as acting general counsel of the US Agency for International Development. These legal roles, both in private practice and as an in-house attorney, have shaped my evolution as a lawyer. The Office of Accountability and Whistleblower Protection holds a statutorily mandated leadership and oversight role under the VA Accountability and Whistleblower Protection Act of twenty seventeen. Besides oversight and policy guidance to VA's distinct administrations, the office which I hope to lead is responsible for defined procedures, for handling whistleblower disclosures and senior leader misconduct. Running an organization with over four hundred thousand employees, delivering direct services to some nine million veterans involves one of the federal government's most demanding missions. Yet despite the unique challenges the VA faces, veterans, taxpayers, and VA staff alike all deserve an accountability office that functions with integrity, independence, and genuine commitment to their interests. President Trump and Congress created this office in a bipartisan fashion to protect the veterans. As the President said at the time, with the creation of this office, we are sending a strong message. Those who fail are veterans will be held, for the first time, accountable. I undertake this pursuit with great respect for OAWP's history of conducting investigations and protecting whistlebl- whistleblowers. This opportunity represents something more than a career step. It is something very personal. My father and two oldest brothers were veterans, and as I mentioned, my son will one day be a veteran. For this reason alone, if confirmed, I commit to this committee, to all veterans, and to all VA employees, that I will work relentlessly and independently to continue to improve efficiency within OAWP's operations and processes. As President Lincoln stated in his second inaugural address near the end of the Civil War, "The country's duty is to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan." These words are inscribed near the entrance to VA headquarters. They are not a suggestion. They are a promise, one that every function of this department, including OAWP, exists to keep. I will pursue that mission zealously and professionally. Finally, if confirmed, I will work in conjunction with this committee to continue to improve efficiency within OAWP's operations and processes. and address all matters independently with a commitment to accountability and transparency. Serving and respecting our veterans is our country's most sacred obligation. I'm grateful for this opportunity to appear before you, and I welcome your questions.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, and in order to compensate for my tardiness, uh, I'll forego my uh questioning for later and recognize Senator Blumenthal.

Thanks, Mister Chairman. um

earlier than you

thank you both for being here thank you to your families uh your spouses and your each of you i think has three children um and uh they may be here or watching uh let me begin mr. tierney um do you have any experience at the va

thank you for that question senator uh no i don't no i'm not

do you have the answer was no

not

do you have any experience working on behalf of whistleblowers

i worked with whistleblowers before senator yes

in what way

in my uh practice at a law firm i had clients who had whistleblower issues who had much um personnel misconduct issues that had to be addressed

did you represent the whistleblowers or the company

i represent the company

so you were against the whistleblowers

we work to support the whistleblowers sir

you worked to support the whistleblowers

to make sure they weren't retaliated against

uh maybe i misheard you ok

by other senior employees

uh but you've never represented whistleblowers correct

only protecting them through my clients representation

um i note that you have served most recently as deputy legal advisor at the department of state you were also deputy acting general counsel at the us agency for uh international development known as aid was that during the time that it was dismantled

thank you senator for the question i was not involved in the changes at USAID as far as its size and

did you serve in the agency during the time that it was dismantled

any so yes that was a um a gradual long term process but i my role had nothing to do with dismantling USAID or letting go any personnel or changing any policies

how did you feel about it being dismantled

you know senator i wasn't part of my role i'd oh i was just there really as managing part of a small law firm making sure all the lawyers were

you you have no opinion

it wasn't part of my role senator

um mister um let me ask you um you have been at the va for a period of time as a special advisor correct

yes sir

are you aware that um the va has loss whether firing or uh otherwise thirteen hundred it employees since the administration took office

i'm aware that's that there were some um exiting employees but i was that happened before i came and i'm not into the details of what happened

well you've been there since december of last year correct

yes sir december first

and you're saying no it employees have left in the last Seven months?

Not that I'm aware of. I I have not been involved in any of the uh dismissal or or

What were your duties there?

I was an assistant uh special senior advisor, excuse me, uh to the secretary.

OK, but what was your area of responsibility? What did you do?

Thank you, Senator. Um, it was a time of learning. I visited hospitals, I visited clinics, cemeteries. I met with senior leadership. spent a good deal of time understanding the different departments so that i could um understand the way that government works and the way that the va works

did you make any recommendations on it

i had one presentation where after some time of envisioning and reviewing the technology reviewing the way that things operated i had one briefing with secretary collins yes sir

would you say that it's important to restore the skilled and dedicated it employees and their positions that have left

uh senator i'm i'm not privy to the details of the skill level or the staff details um i my review was at a very high level functional like departmental review but not at a detailed employee so i'm not aware of the individual uh job skills that are needed

well but in general wouldn't you agree that it's important to provide more staffing to make it work better

senator thank you um i've met a lot of the staff across the country um the it staff and a good amount of them are actual veterans that have transitioned into the va that has been uh an amazing experience because of the the nature of these people are dedicated loyal and um they love love serving i do believe that there is room for young out of college um hot shot smart kids that we we can on ramp into the va give them an opportunity to serve their country and build the skill level within the va oit

well may i suggest that i would have welcomed the response to the effect yes we need the skilled staff that we have lost because the oit function can't be improved without it and we need to improve it so i hope that will be a approach that you take if and when you are confirmed my time has expired i thank the chairman for letting me go ahead and i apologize i have another as we often do another uh commitment that i'm gonna have to attend

thank you for the involvement

thank you thanks mr. chairman

sir tell us

thank you mr. chair uh gentlemen thank you for being here and uh congratulations on your nomination i intend to support your nominations or your confirmation um uh mister chatzwell am i pronouncing that right

Yes, Senator.

Um, I come from an IT experience, if you did any prep for this hearing, you know my beef is the bipartisan failure to really modernize the VA. Um, I've been on this committee for going into my twelfth year. Um, I've seen very capable secretaries of the VA, and I've seen some fairly capable leaders in IT make an attempt, but they haven't made discernible progress. What are we gonna do? I mean, And the, and if you look at it from my perspective, having done enterprise IT implementations, there's no way on earth that this scheduling system should have taken the time and cost what it's cost, um, as one example. And I think a part of that has to do with, uh, a lack of a rationalization of what this organization looks like, needs to look like. You've mentioned things about best practices. I've heard all that word salad, um, for twelve years here. What are you gonna try and do in your first ninety days to prove to somebody like me, that used to work in the same space, that you're gonna do something different, you're gonna hold uh people accountable. I've had discussions, for example, of why don't you get a program office that includes members on this committee there, seeing the progress every day, so that you've got champions here behind an IT modernization effort. Uh, I've never really seen a viable program office come out. They've had good consultants. What's gonna be different about uh you versus what has been promised to me by democrat and republican nominees in the past, what what's the secret sauce, what are you bringing to the effort?

Thank you senator for the question. There's a lot in what you just asked um so um let me start with I I think uh to the point of a PMO office, a program management office, it is a a necessary piece that does not exist at the leadership level of OIT. that is a massive challenge. And I understand that there have been attempts to implement that in the past, um, and in those attempts, there has not been the requisite tooling to ensure that the visibility and the process was actually managed, and the visibility was there through dashboarding and those kinds of things. One of the first tasks that I will be going after will be to, um, implement a program management office if confirmed.

'Kay, now, again i think it'd be helpful for us to help you uh because that is roughly approximately

yes

the answer i've gotten on five or six occasions uh before this committee um and i think the message here i i believe that you you have the the the capabilities to do it but you have to have executive sponsorship and the secretary has to say no i'm gonna be the first secretary in twelve years that's actually followed through on a viable program office that does this sort of work to try and prioritize IT platforms initiatives. He's held accountable for the initial estimate and for the end estimate, on due dates, on resources, on deliverables. The, it is amazing how much money we are leaving on the floor by doing this uh in a bush league way with one of the most large consequential organizations in US government. So count me in in the remaining two hundred and fourteen days of my tenure to help you stand up that office, but I will tell you in this committee, the the thing I like about this committee and I will miss about it, is we're largely bipartisan. And I think you're missing the opportunity by not engaging members on this committee to be a part of that program office so that they can report back to the chair the good work you're doing, and they can identify the obstacles that need to be removed so that you can achieve the goals. I've made that same uh commitment to democratic and republican people coming into your position i hope you'll be the first one to take me up on it because then i think you may end up being the first head of it um that will actually make a discernible difference versus just barely treading water and making uh making progress around the edges but you know quite honestly i've gotta give them third quartile results aggregate over the last twelve years there there if you know anything about the gartner magic quadrant On a good day they're in they're in quadrant number three. Uh, they're never gonna get to upper uh upper right if uh, if we don't have good leadership there in buy-in. And, Mister Tierney, I um, I appreciate you, I know you've had a very distinguished uh career. Uh, you've gotta be doing this because your heart's in it and you wanna serve. It's certainly not because the money's great. I look forward to supporting your uh confirmation too. Just very quickly um, just tell me how you're going to uh make whistleblowing something that is great, uh, that people should do to keep everybody at every level of the organization accountable, very quickly. I know I've just gone over time.

Sure. Thank you, Senator, for your question. Whistleblowing is clearly the, the, the prime role, point of this role. And I think as a first step, employees must feel comfortable and secure in reporting on misco- bad conduct, misconduct, without the report, there's no investigation to monitor and control. Um, how I would do that is, some of the current things going on. I know there's education, there's training, there's mandatory internet training. But I think messaging is very important, and coming down from leadership, if, if confirmed, I would work with other senior leaders at VA, career leaders, and learn and educate myself about how's the process working, how do we know people are comfortable. reporting. Um, I noticed over the last several years the reports have doubled, approximately. Um, you could say that's a good thing because maybe more people are feeling comfortable reporting. You could also say maybe it's a, not a good thing if there's more bad conduct going on. So that's something I would wanna educate myself on and learn more about. If, if confirmed to be in there, to be able to learn about some information that obviously was is confidential at this point that I don't have access to. So.

Thank you, Mister Chair, and good afternoon to you both, congratulations uh to you and your families uh for your nominations and for your willingness to serve. Um I'm gonna start with a question to both of you that I ask now of all nominees. If directed by the President to take action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the President's directive, Mister Schatzel?

I don't believe the President would do that, ma'am. Um but yes, I would follow the law.

Mister Tierney?

Thank you, Senator, for that question. I similarly don't expect the President to give such a directive, but if he did, I will one hundred percent always follow the law and ethics.

Well, I appreciate your uh commitment to the law. I will say that we are in a war that was illegally um initiated by this President and he has refused to follow the law in that regard. Um, he has just appointed somebody as acting DNI who has no intelligence experience even though the law clearly says. that the act the d n i has to have uh such a experience and on the symbolic front uh the law is very clear uh that he did not have uh the right to put his name up on the kennedy center and a court has just ruled that he uh broke the law in doing that so i um am concerned that you all uh started your answer with saying that you don't expect the president this president uh to break the law now mister tierney if you're confirmed you will be responsible for among other things investigating allegations of whistleblower retaliation as well as receiving and investigating allegations of misconduct retaliation or poor performance involving senior VA employees the trump administration has retaliated against federal employees it has disagreed with these are well publicized um events and you've been working as in your own words an in-house attorney for this administration so on the one hand you've been working for this administration while it has actively and publicly retaliated against uh whistleblowers so if you're confirmed how are you gonna ensure that allegations brought to your office are properly investigated and the va employees are protected from retaliation and that people have the confidence uh that if they bring a complaint to your office uh that they will not be retaliated against

thank you senator that's a great question um if confirmed i would uh do everything i can to make sure that all VA employees feel comfortable and secure in reporting bad conduct. Without the report, we can't conduct an investigation and even analyze the benefits or not of the investigation or the quality of investigation. So how do we do that? I know currently there are different programs like education, training, um, you know, mandatory tests. But I would do more than that and really,

How do you

it, the messaging I think is important that it comes down from leadership, that that's, this is our role.

Right, I, I, and I appreciate and understand that. as i appreciated your answer to senator tillis but look uh the leader in chief um retaliates against people all the time it's very public that he sees uh his role as president or his um that he has the option as president of the united states for retaliating against people including whistleblowers so given that he is the leader here who sends the most dominating message how are you gonna counteract that

Well, Senator, um, yeah, I believe or understand that I report to the secretary and to this committee.

Yeah.

And again, the role by definition is to make sure employees feel comfortable whistleblowing, reporting on bad conduct, and safe that they're not gonna be retaliated against. And I would do everything to make sure that messaging is loud and clear, and that that is what employees are hearing.

Well, I hope you will consider just what the counter-messaging from the top is like, and really be thoughtful about how within the VA you can really uh support whistleblowers. Uh New Hampshire in its Manchester VA had a series of whistleblower events uh now about a decade ago. Um and it they were very very difficult for the whistleblowers involved. The whistleblowers actually their actions I think made them the Manchester VA a better place ultimately um because they reported things that really needed to be reported but you are going to have your work cut out for you, given the messaging from the White House. Um, Mister Shatswell, if you're confirmed you'll be in charge of information and technology at the VA. One area that I've been interested in is updating the VA's scheduling capabilities. I think you know a little bit about the bill. Um, especially the technology behind those capabilities. Um, right now veterans, for instance, can't do all their scheduling all at once on one platform. Uh, so it's phone calls or, um, internet access to scheduling platforms kind of one at a time. And by the time you schedule one, uh, visit with one specialist and then you get to the next one, uh, that day may have, you know, similar appointments on the same day, no- may no longer be available. So, Senator Bozeman and I have a bill that would require the VA to create a self-service scheduling platform that would allow veterans to book their VA appointments, all in one easy location. Our bill passed the Senate last year, and we're working to hopefully get it passed through the

yes

thank you uh thanks mister chair

i'm gonna call on senator sheehy next but senator king you are inelig ineligible to speak about technology until you learn how to turn off your phone

it Gee. Oh, good afternoon guys. Congratulations on your uh appointments. And um, so Mister Shatswati um, you you have a lot of ID uh IT experience obviously and and um, you know, we've been looking at ways that uh our care access, whether it's community care or or direct um clinical care can be provided more rapidly and make sure that when those diagnoses are made And when those uh appointments are referred, it happens in a timely manner. It doesn't turn into weeks and months uh of waiting and, and kind of that, the administrative do loop that that happens. So, um, is there a technological reason uh why the VA could not assess at the time um, that the veteran's request for care or specialty referral is entered in the system that a VA facility can't provide their requested care within the typical access standard and and frankly abide by the law, which requires um, you know, that treatment to be given in a certain period of time?

Thank you, Senator, for the question. Um, I, the answer to that is not a fast answer, uh, but I'll, I'll take a swing at it. The, when you look at the data that the VA has, it starts with the DOW, and the data flows into the VA, um, transition, a little before transition, some after transition. Um, that data is one way. Then that data goes into systems and there are literally hundreds of databases. Those hundreds of databases make a very complex environment where data is enriched all over the place, with one-way data feeds, that makes it extremely difficult to find the connections and do what you're talk- what you're asking about. One of the ideas of modern modernizing the VA, one of the areas that I believe we need to focus on, I spoke with you uh Senator King about this, is we need a an enterprise data platform. we needed enterprise data exchange where there's one place for the warfighter golden record where all of that data is contained and it's the one system of record that everything points to so that those kinds of moments like scheduling as um as uh senator has hasn't said um that that becomes simple it it becomes an uh uh an an easy problem to solve right now we have fourteen scheduling problem or uh solutions that i'm aware of um that's just unacceptable

yeah and i mean from the health record perspective i mean that that that should become part of discharge like we can't discharge a person from active duty until their health records have been transferred and received by vha so it's, that's happened in addition to the disability benefits exam but i think more specifically they're like if a referral enters the system on day one so we're not talking active duty transition someone's out they're a veteran they go into the c box to get a uh uh um their specialty care the referral happens on day one is there a reason why in the current system that we have or system of systems why when that referral happens, it can take days, weeks or months for that referral to make its way through the system. I mean, is is this a is this a community care access problem? Is this an administrative issue or is this a technology issue with our IT systems, that these referrals get lost in the ones and zero land forever? And sometimes it's weeks or months before a referral is approved.

Yeah. Thank you, Senator. I th I think that the root of the issue is that there isn't one system. There are systems and there are many and they don't talk to each other. So, there is a lot of work to make the, to build those bridges and to make the data flow. So that, that problem has to be solved in order to make what you're asking for a reality.

Yeah. Well, that's gonna be, uh, I would hope it, it becomes a reductionist enterprise instead of

Yes.

adding more layers because what government does is when we wanna solve a problem, we add more layers on top, and what we need to do is reduce the, we need to distill the system down to a minimal amount, hopefully one singular system that actually works instead of just layering more, you know, repaving over the same road over and over again. And we're not actually fixing the pothole, we're just paving over it.

Yes, sir. One of my favorite things is turning things off.

Yeah.

So, my goal would be to turn off as many things as possible,

Good.

and reduce the complexity. You you you also, you have a significant uh cyber security parameter, uh privacy parameter. When you have hundreds of databases, if you can reduce to a single one, or reduce the number, it's much much easier to protect. So, There's a lot of reasons, saving money, there's a lot of reasons why it makes sense for us to do that, sir.

I'm a community care, so I'm a huge advocate for community care. Uh, hasn't always been the most popular with, with the staff at the VA, but I think, uh, especially in a state like Montana where we're a huge state with not many people, some veterans could have a seven hour drive to the VA clinic. So, community care is a, is a key part of the fabric of VA care in Montana. Um, we need to make sure there's open lines of communication so that when community care is not being utilized community care is being intentionally sidelined. uh nationally um you know the those those complaints those reports are rapidly collated and and acted on and um you know what can you do to insure me that that as those complaints or those reports come in you know they're not getting side-lined they're getting prioritized and acted on because community care as we see a a provider shortage in all categories on America community care is gonna be critical here uh for our veterans.

Thank you, Senator, and if I may briefly get I recognize your uh Naval Academy attendance, my son behind me is a rising midshipman and former superintendent Tom Lynch is here with me today too,

Right.

and I thank him for that.

Oh there he is, see him right there, yep. Tom, how are you Admiral?

Community care is very important and I've been researching and planning for this um potential role, if confirmed. Um, I have heard that from others as well. Um, obviously some states are much more rural than others. Um, and if confirmed i would talk to the people who are responsible in those areas and educate myself as to what's happening and how can we make it better things like distance um the service level of care um so i would definitely look into that and talk to the people who know how it works talk to this committee and see what's the what can we do better and different but a hundred percent independence is the key to this role and i'll be completely independent and nonpartisan on all issues and And we appreciate you bringing that one up.

Great. Well, thanks for your time today, gentlemen. It's it's a key time for uh, for the VA to modernize and fix a lot of problems that have been alluded to that have been bothering us for a long time so let's let's stop kicking the can and get it done. Thanks.

Senator Keating.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I apologize to everyone for the phone ringing, that's I can think of worse times to have that happen, but not right off hand, uh, in a hearing is pretty bad. Uh, Mr. Susswell, just to be clear Your remit does not include the Electronic Medical Records project. Is that correct?

Yeah, that is correct, Senator King.

And and h- has that got its own office and own leadership? Is that the way it's set up?

Yes, I believe the the confusion, uh, currently the Deputy Secretary, Secretary um, Dep Sec Lawrence, um, Doctor Lawrence is wearing two hats as the deputy and the acting CIO. So it's gotten a little conflated. And when that role, if confirmed, I step into the CIO, yes. It stays with him.

Macr- medical records is somebody else's problem.

And Doctor Neal Evans, correct.

Thank you. Um, I'm gonna charge you with making your job even more complicated. And that's dealing with the, the Grand Canyon between the Defense Department and the VA. And how to coordinate systems in that way so that the veteran doesn't get lost, doesn't get dropped. Uh, is that a project that is worth pursuing in your mind?

One hundred percent. I believe that there is a lot that we can do there to improve service to active duty and veterans. Yes.

And, uh, I would hope that you would learn who your counterparts were in the, in the department so that that kind of activity could, could begin.

Yes, sir, as well as senators like yourself that can help to bridge the gaps.

Well, I'll, I'll do what I can. Um, uh, Mister Tierney, uh, I'm, I'm worried about sort of counter currents going on here. One is whistleblower protection which you've talked about and uh uh investigating claims and protecting whistleblowers. And yet at the same time, last year it was reported that the um VA was requiring uh their employees to sign a n- nondisclosure agreement that did not include the legally required exclusion language for whistleblowers. Are you aware of that that uh situation?

Thank you, Senator. I have read rep- I have read reports about that.

well i would hope that if the there's another the the the opm just in the last week or so has talked about new whistleblower i'm sorry new uh nondisclosure agreements throughout the federal government have you reviewed the language that's being proposed