Budget Hearing – Department of Housing and Urban Development

Greetings all. You know, me being the uh stickler for time, the uh clock shows exactly four o'clock. And uh, I will bring this subcommittee to order. Today we welcome the Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Honorable Scott Turner, a Big Ten champion from a long time ago. Mister Secretary, thank you for appearing before this subcommittee to discuss HUD's fiscal year twenty-seven budget request. This is your second appearance before us, and I look forward to hearing about the progress you've made in the past year reforming HUD's programs and putting the department on sounder footing. We share a common goal, constraining costs, promoting housing affordability and serving our most vulnerable citizens. HUD's fiscal twenty-seven request is sixty-two billion in new budget authority, a reduction of about fifteen billion below the enacted fiscal twenty-six level. portion of the proposed savings come from eliminating programs like CDBG, home, and self-sufficiency initiatives, programs that enjoy strong bipartisan support among our members. Our mark-up may reflect some differences with the budget request as we weigh member input. The bulk of the HUD budget is in rental assistance programs serving more than five million households. Many of these are elderly, disabled and working families who depend on contract renewals and vouchers to keep a roof over their heads. You've described your approach as " common sense compassion", and I think that's exactly the right spirit. My commitment is to make sure this subcommittee gives you the tools and the funding to make that principle real for the families who are counting on it. Some of the savings in the budget request depend on authorizing proposals that will require action from the Financial Services Committee, I trust that your team will engage with that committee and my colleague, French Hill of Arkansas, on those reforms. Our shared goal is to make HUD's programs as effective as possible, creating opportunity for citizens to prosper while ensuring a responsible safety net for those who need it. Mister Secretary, the work you're doing matters. This subcommittee is a partner in making sure that we get it right. So with that, I'd like to now recognize my dear friend from South Carolina, the ranking member of this subcommittee, Mister Jim Clyburn, for any opening remarks he would like to make.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me join you in welcoming the secretary here. Mister Secretary, just got off the plane from Dallas. Uh, my grandson-in-law has just moved to Plano. Uh, and so I hope to get, uh, uh, more acquainted with your, uh, section of the country. Uh, I think we all agree uh, that housing is a basic human need. It serves as a foundation for education, health, and financial outcomes for nearly every family in America. Without a safe and stable place to live, it is difficult for families to improve educational outcomes, maintain good health, or increase their earnings and their wealth. Across the country, more than seven hundred and seventy-one thousand people are experiencing homelessness and seventy-five percent of low-income renters spend more than half of their income on rent. According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, more than seventeen million low-income renters need federal rental assistance, but do not receive it. This includes more than four million seniors. and one million people with disabilities, and more than five million families with children. Despite these challenging realities, your department's twenty twenty-seven budget request proposes to cut HUD funding by nearly eleven billion dollars. In order to achieve such draconian funding levels, your budget proposes to eliminate programs that help families achieve self-sufficiency, build wealth, through home ownership and construct new housing. This is not only unacceptable, but unrealistic given the dire need to lower uh the cost of living uh for Americans. Your budget request also includes so-called reforms that would shift HUD program costs onto low income residents. This doesn't help families who are already working multiple jobs uh to become self-sufficient.

Mm.

Instead, it creates chaos, uh, financial uncertainty and pushes these families into more severe trade-offs, a choice of feeding your family, paying for medications, or paying rent. Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not highlight the cuts to fair housing enforcement and, uh, your department attempts. to deregulate long-standing civil rights laws. Mr. Secretary, let's remember the long and painful history that led to the creation of the fair housing law. The Federal Housing Administration, banks, and insurance companies literally drew red lines on maps around neighborhoods where they refused to provide home loans and insurance otherwise qualified home buyers. I'm not relying on research here. I served on three of the predecessor boards to what is now Bank of America. And I chaired our Community Reinvestment Act committee. So I'm telling you what I know, what I experienced. And the hard job I had on that board, getting uh them to change uh their ways of doing business. Uh I think we had some success, but not enough. This discrimination extended to black veterans returning from World War Two, Korea, and Vietnam. These men and women had served their country yet were excluded from the GI Bill's housing benefits that were transformational uh for white families. Black veterans were denied VA backed loans of the first three thousand three hundred and fifty VA housing loans in the state of Mississippi. Only two, not two percent, only two went to black people. Not y- even fighting for our country abroad earned them a fair shot. at the American dream here at home. Black families were denied the primary path to building generational wealth and that created a racial wealth gap that still persists to this day. The Fair Housing Law of nineteen sixty eight represented a simple but crucial promise that every American would have an equal opportunity to secure safe, decent housing. Unfortunately, since the start of this administration, we have seen an attack on long-standing laws that were enacted to stop excluding black people from the greatnesses of this country. The current state of housing and the cost of living in America calls on us to question our national priorities. Unfortunately, Mr. Secretary, this budget proposal ignores. far too many realities and is an exploitation of our most vulnerable. Mr. Chairman, I implore my colleagues on this panel to work together on a bipartisan basis to find real solutions to the housing crisis and drive down the cost of living rather than increase the economic burdens of everyday Americans. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I give back.

Thank the gentlemen from South Carolina. Uh, I will now recognize the full committee chairman, uh, Chairman Cole, for his opening remarks.

Thank you very much, uh, Mister Chairman, and, uh, thank you, uh, Ranking Member Clyburn. I'm also pleased to be joined by my good friend, the Ranking Member of the full committee and, uh, uh, each and every member here. This is in a very important subcommittee. Welcome, Secretary Turner, and thank you for appearing before us today and for your continued service to the American people. This subcommittee oversees a portfolio that touches every American, from roads and bridges to the rental assistance that keeps a roof over the heads of our most vulnerable neighbors. Few areas of government operate at a more direct and community focused level. Whether through housing assistance for our elderly and disabled, or economic development programs like CDBG, HUD's reach into the daily lives of Americans is profound. that's why this subcommittee takes its oversight responsibilities so seriously and why we expect accountability from our agencies one area that has long been a priority for me is how hud fulfills its trust and treaty obligations to tribal communities thank you when i chaired this subcommittee i worked to elevate tribal housing program and i'm grateful that chairman walmack has continued to build on those investments and to be honest with you i do have concerns which we'll discuss during the question period about your budget in those areas. Uh, these obligations represent commitments made to sovereign domestic nations that have waited far too long for Fed- the federal government to make good on its promises. I'm pleased that uh you've been engaged, uh you've engaged tribal leaders directly, including Tribal Intergovernmental Advisory Council, which you hosted last September, and I appreciate that very, very much. That kind of meaningful consultation reaffirmed HUD's commitment to its government to government responsibilities, and I trust she'll continue to prioritize it. Mister Secretary, we have important work ahead of us. The American people deserve a HUD that is well-managed, responsive and funded to meet its mission. This subcommittee intends to do its part. I look forward to a candid and productive dialogue today. With that, Mister Chairman, I thank you and yield back.

Thank you, uh, Chairman Cole. Now I recognize a full committee ranking member, Miss Dilauro, for her opening remarks.

Thank you very much, Chair Womack and Ranking Member Clyburn and uh my colleague, Mister Cole. Uh good to be with you today and Secretary Turner, welcome. Um it is no secret that the American people are facing an affordability crisis, despite the President's insistence that affordability is a, and I quote, con job or a quote hoax. I can assure you it is very real for working families today. One of the largest contributing to the cost of living crisis is the rising cost of housing. According to census data, more than forty-three million households are cost burdened, meaning they spend more than thirty percent of their income on housing. Roughly half of all renters in the United States fall into this category. In order to afford a single family home at the current median price, you would need to earn more than double. the current median household income. But the Trump administration has failed to take any action to bring down costs. In fact, they are making it worse. A report from the National Association of Home Builders estimated that Trump's tariffs on whole building materials increased costs by ten thousand nine hundred dollars per home, almost eleven thousand dollars per home, increasing costs. At the same time, the Trump administration is proposing to slash funding for programs that support American families struggling to navigate these high costs. The president's budget proposes a one point three billion dollar cut to housing construction at a time when more than seven hundred fifty thousand veterans, unaccompanied youth, people with disabilities, victims of domestic violence, and other struggling Americans are Haught is also attempting to drastically upend the continuum of care program, ignoring decades of evidence-based research and federal courts stepping in. The administration's intentional delay to issue grant awards last year, threatened to put one hundred forty thousand people out onto the street. That does not inspire confidence in this administration's ability to make positive changes moving forward. The President's budget proposes eliminating community development block grants, one of the most widely used HUD programs entirely. Mister Secretary, you note in your testimony that this is because of objections to DEI, equity officers, and an equity lens. Really? You plan to eliminate the entire program, strip more than one thousand mayors, governors, local leaders of federal support for street, water and sewer improvements because you do not like the word equity? How will that help to make life more affordable? This program supports local projects, like the City of Tucson's residential rehabilitation program. a lead hazard removal program in Missoula, Montana, Montana, and residential radar testing in Indianapolis. These are not partisan projects that push an agenda. They're investments, investments that support our communities and our constituents. You know, the American people do not need more culture war talking points. They need relief from high costs. Instead, the Trump administration is adding pressure on families, on American families on all sides. They are pushing costs up through tariffs and pulling back aid through cuts. It is the worst of both worlds. The President's budget proposal, if enacted, would evict tens of thousands of seniors, veterans and people with disabilities, even as more than seven hundred seventy-one thousand people are experiencing homelessness across this country. At a time when millions of Americans are struggling to afford even the most basic necessities, the Trump administration's plan is to make the situation even worse. Working families deserve a leadership that looks after their interests, not just the billionaires who can afford to buy an audience with the president. I look forward to your testimony, Mister Secretary, and to hearing your answers to our questions. I thank you and I yield back.

I thank the gentlelady from Connecticut. Mister Secretary, uh your prepared comments uh will be inserted into the record. Uh right now we will give you an opportunity br briefly summarize those comments before we go to our Q and A part of the hearing and so at this time I would recognize you for five minutes.

Well thank you uh Mister Chairman, uh really appreciate that and uh All the distinguished members of the subcommittee, Ranking Member Clyburn, Chairman Cole, Ranking Member DeLauro, thank you uh all for having me. I appreciate this opportunity to testify on the President's twenty twenty seven budget and what it means for the Department of Housing and Urban Development. At HUD we remain focused on a simple principle, the American dream of homeownership must be within reach for all Americans. That requires affordability, stewardship and a shared duty between HUD and Congress. Taxpayer dollars are finite, but our responsibility is not. The President's proposal reflects that approach. It rains in wasteful spending, stops the ballooning of federal welfare programs, and continues HUD's mission, our mission-minded focus on serving the American people. The budget proposed is to end the Community Development Block Grant program, which was created to revitalize urban communities but has lost focus and often supports activities, like equity officers in Chicago. equity lens framework in Denver and requirements in Massachusetts tied to DEI initiatives. Ending CDBG allows us to focus funding on results that are directly impacting housing affordability. The president's proposal also reinforces HUD's commitment to the statutory intent of the Fair Housing Act rather than on activities that are anything but fair. We will continue to enforce the law as written because fair housing is about equal rights and not extra rights. On homelessness, the data is very clear. By the end of the Biden administration, HUD's spending on continuum of care serves more than fifty percent, yet street homelessness rose twenty percent since twenty twenty. Despite record funding, communities reported record homelessness. Since serving as secretary, I've raised concerns about the Housing First approach, which fails to address underlying causes of homelessness, such as substance abuse and mental illness. Housing First feeds a homeless industrial complex that simply warehouses to homeless. Compassion requires results, not just resources. And HUD will focus on addressing root causes and pathways to self-sufficiency, instead of trapping Americans in government dependency. The President's plan reinforces HUD's commitment to stewardship of taxpayer dollars and prioritizes that serve our nation's most vulnerable people. The budget secures thirty million dollars for the Melania Trump Foster Youth to Independence initiative. There are roughly twenty thousand young Americans who age out of foster care annually, and nearly one in four experience homelessness soon thereafter. I have heard directly from foster youth, they are not asking for handouts, they are asking for tools to become and achieve independence. They're fighting to stand on their own two feet, help their peers break the cycle, and build brighter futures for themselves. Earning a paycheck is indeed empowering, getting a handout is not. That is why the President is proposing work requirements of at least twenty hours per week, along with five year limits for able-bodied Americans in HUD's rental Assistance programs. This helps individuals graduate from government assistance that makes room for vulnerable Americans on the wait list. The budget also includes a hundred and sixty million dollars of federal housing administration contracts to help Americans access affordable and sustainable home ownership opportunities. Across HUD we are strengthening program integrity. In December, we published the FY twenty-five agency financial report that uncovered over five billion dollars in potential payment errors under the Biden administration. This is unacceptable. Accountability is not optional. It is a fundamental to public trust. We're also making her more efficient by relocating from the Robert C. Weaver Federal Building to Alexandria, a move that reflects a broader commitment to modernization. The Weaver Building had deteriorated beyond cost-effective repair, with more than five hundred million dollars in deferred and delinquent maintenance, and over twenty two million dollars in annual operating costs. By relocating HUD is saving taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, while providing employees with a safe and collaborative workspace. The budget also secures thirty million dollars for our program integrity initiative, also known as Project HUD's, HUD's Unified Grant System, which will build on HUD's sub-recipient reporting pilot to support data analysis to identify improper payments. so we can better combat waste, fraud and abuse. Under this administration, HUD has delivered. Since January twenty twenty five, HUD has supported home ownership for over one point two million American households, with more than seventy percent being first time home buyers. That is what focused discipline policy can achieve. The president's plan builds on that progress. It brings discipline to federal spending and regulation, strengthens accountability and reinforces HUD's mission. We'll focus on results at HUD and not just rhetoric. This vision positions her to lead a renaissance of housing revitalization, one that increases supply, expands access, and delivers real opportunity for the American people. It's my privilege to share this vision with you today, uh, Mister Chairman and distinguished members. I look forward to our discussion.

I thank the uh secretary for his opening comments. Uh, we will proceed now uh to the questions. I will recognize myself for five minutes and remind all of my colleagues that we will enforce the five minute rule, so please uh get to your questions as soon as possible, so as to allow time for a reasonable response. Secretary Turner, I know you've been busy this past year implementing both an internal and external transformation with a goal of, as you often say, getting HUD's fiscal house in order. This begins of course with your ongoing efforts to identify risks and direct staff resources to mitigate those risks. These efforts will help ensure that HUD can successfully deliver rent subsidy payments, maintain mortgage operations and execute grants. The work your team has undertaken won't be easy and it cannot be more important. What can you tell me about these programs and payment integrity efforts?

Well, yes, sir. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, we're very excited at HUD. You know, we came in, uh, there was a a lack of financial controls and during the biden administration there's really a a negligence as it pertains to stewardship and so erv dennis who is our cfo who this is his second tour uh at hud he and his team have done a tremendous job as i mentioned in my opening statement with hud's unified grant system which will help us to be uh very transparent and hold ph as accountable especially at the sub-recipient level and so this is a revolutionary uh dashboard if you will to bring all of our systems into collaboration so that we can track where taxpayer dollars are going to make sure uh that they are held accountable and achieving a mission uh that they're supposed to achieve. And so we're excited about Project HUD's and the innovation uh and the new technology that we've never been done before uh and this pilot is almost done and and ready to be deployed hopefully by the end of the fiscal year uh to help not only HUD but really uh across the agencies in our government as it pertains to good stewardship.

Yeah, in in particular, I I know I'm interested and I'm sure all of my colleagues are interested in how this works. will bring additional transparency into how public housing agencies, the PHAs, use their funds. Will the way the PHAs across the nation report grant expenses and program outcomes to HUD be affected by these new systems and processes?

Yes, sir, and there will be more accountability and transparency because prior to this, uh, it was hard to see once the money went out the door, in particular at the subrecipient level, you know what happens to the money and so this will help the way uh that supported but also help us to track it in a way uh that's good stewardship for taxpayers.

How are we working with the PHAs to help prepare them,

Mm-hmm.

coach them through this transition?

Yes sir. Yes sir, we've had extensive conversation uh with PHAs, I myself travel uh across the country, but our team at HUD has extensive conversations to help PHAs in understanding that we need better policy making, better decision making, and more transparency. Uh and this Project HUGS will help us uh to achieve that mission.

Understand that the fiscal twenty-five uh in in that time frame, HUD could not assure that its own financial statements were accurate. Boy, that's kind of a sad commentary uh for

Mm-hmm.

the greatest uh country in the on the planet.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, this resulted in auditors issuing a disclaimer of opinion stating that they can provide no opinion on the quality or accuracy of HUD's own financial statements. That was back in fiscal twenty-five. What is your team doing to improve HUD's internal procedures? financial controls and management oversight within the department.

Thank you, sir. And I'll go back, you know, during uh the first trump administration when erv dennis and his team were here, hud had four years of clean audits. Uh but unfortunately during the biden administration uh there was uh a lack of um proper stewardship and negligence as it as it pertains to the finances at hud. And so erv and his team have been working tirelessly to make sure that we getting back in compliance to make sure that we have a clean audit and they have assured me uh that in the coming uh months that we will have a clean audit but really we were trying to clean up what happened in the previous administration which you know what we're not afraid of we wanna make sure we're good stewards of our taxpayer dollars and so uh better days are coming as it pertains to uh stewardship of taxpayer dollars at hud

I know my time is about out but uh secretary turner uh hud has indicated it wants to shift the continuum care program away from Housing First toward models that emphasize self-sufficiency, transitional housing, and wrap-around services like job training and addiction treatment. As HUD prepares to release a new finding notice or new funding notice on June one, can you kinda walk us through very briefly the evidence and research that informed this policy direction and how HUD plans to measure whether that new approach is actually reducing homelessness over time?

For sure, sir. The the Housing First model is a failed model. Uh, it's been around, as you know, for four years and uh homelessness is at an all time high with record funding. And so we have to run a new play, we have to do something different. Uh, not just housing people, but really getting to the root cause of homelessness, mental addiction, drug addiction, uh, mental illness, and help people to get transformed and healed and back to a life of self-sufficiency and we will include the wrap-around services and the collection of data to make sure that it is efficient and achieving the results we want.

Yeah, thank you. Uh yield now to uh the ranking member, Mr. Clyburn.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Secretary, was there an administration before the Biden administration?

Indeed.

What administration was that?

The Trump administration, sir.

How many clean orders you had? four

uh

four you had four clean audits when when trump for hood when trump was there you're on the record ok this question is coming back again now you say in your budget uh your proposal the states and local governments are better positioned to serve their communities uh then c d b g last i'll check c d b g is a block grant that goes to the states isn't it

sir c d b g has not accomplish the mission that it's supposed to accomplish there are some states that have used c d b g for its intended

will you please answer the question is

purpose but at large c d b g has not been used overall for what it's intended to be used for as i made record of and notice of in my statement

well i'm asking you again who makes decisions on how c d b g money is spent

yes sir it is the states but the money is coming from the federal government

so ok so if it's not used properly then the states are not using it properly i'm asking the question

indeed yes sir and the and the results have spoken for themselves

so then So then you are saying to me, you take all this money away, and then the states will get the money from where? To meet the needs uh that are laid out uh and give you some of it. Um in one year unsheltered homelessness rose by nearly seven percent overall. But increased by nineteen percent in largely suburban communities But eighteen percent in rural areas. How am I to meet the needs of the rural areas in South Carolina with your budget?

That's right, I think that's that's a great question. When you look at record funding for homelessness, and yet homelessness goes up significantly, then something, there's a problem. It's not a money problem. It's a stewardship problem. It's a fundamental problem of the way the program is ran. It's not just housing people. It's not just creating a homelessness uh industrial complex. We have to treat the real root of homelessness, be it rural, be it suburban, be it urban. And that is, could be mental illness, it could be drug addiction. But we have to treat these illnesses, get people transformed, and back to a life of self-sufficiency. Housing first is a failed model. and we can't keep running losing plays and that's the it's a paradigm shift if you will uh remember clive byrne we care for people our homeless neighbors that are on the street no matter if they're in rural areas if they're in suburban areas uh tribal areas but we can't keep just housing people we have to treat people to get them healed ok you and i matter of fact sir i i've experienced this in my own family we my uncle was homeless and and we found him that may be true ok and we were able to put wrap around services around him

was the ok ok

yes sir

so i might uh understand that if we treat mental illness we treat mental illness in the outdoors somewhere or under a tree

no sir i said it's not just housing yes we have to house them but then we have to treat them

well but my

it's continuum of care it's in the name we got away from the model

so if you

we just house people instead of treating them and getting them transformed

ok ok So if you are mentally ill

Mm-hmm.

in need of housing

Mm-hmm.

then because you have not been treated by the appropriate agency we gonna render you homeless.

Mm-hmm. Sir.

That's the natural conclusion to your statement.

It it actually is not. My statement is saying we can't just house people, we have to continue to care for them to get them healed

we are just housing them we are housing them

and transformed we gotta house them first second and third it doesn't just stop

so how do you house them if you take all the money away

housing first housing first is a failed model sir

uh uh no slogan there so i'm not dealing with slogan there in here

i'm not either sir i'm just stating the fact

how do you house people when you take the money away i'll give back

thank you sir

thank you mr. Cole

thank you very much mr. chairman mr. secretary uh as you know uh this is the thirtieth year of the anniversary of the haza the native american housing assistance and self-determination act haza authorized also the indian housing block grant program uh so pretty important mile important milestones uh when i was fortunate enough to chair this subcommittee i just asked uh our committee staff to go back and look what was the percentage of the hud budget devoted to native american housing when we passed the haza and what was it today and we found of course the absolute number had gone up but it had dropped pretty dramatically as a percentage it's not a large portion of the budget uh it was less than three percent i think about two point eight percent of hud funds devoted to tribal housing but it had dropped down to about one point five or six in that kind of neighborhood so we saw really and it wasn't associated with any particular administration of one party or the other it was just out of sight out of mind declined for thirty years just. Subcommittee frankly had not had a hearing on Indian housing in over twenty years.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so I asked to go back and take a look at it, and when I was fortunate enough to be here, we had a substantial increase to get back to where, not to replace all the intervening lack of investment, but to get back up to where we had been in the late nineteen nineties as a percentage of the HUD budget. And that uh resulted in a thirty two percent increase in uh spending uh

Mm-hmm.

on indian reservations and in particular so right now the budget that you're bringing before us would basically undo that i mean we would uh uh drop from about a hundred and one point three five billion dollars in fy twenty six to eight hundred and eighty seven million so that's a thirty four percent reduction indian housing block uh grant formula program which received again one point one billion in fy twenty twenty six would drop to eight hundred and seventy two about a twenty one percent reduction. uh did we make so much progress that we could afford those kind of reductions in literally a couple of years

well thank you mister chairman as you know we are uh maximizing the budget that we have and as you know i'm very supportive of our tribal nations birth in both in the first administration having traveled to many of our tribal nations and also in this one having also traveled uh and as you stated about uh almost nine hundred million about eight hundred eighty seven million i believe uh and my goal and our goal at hud is to really maximize that to help our tribes uh we have made significant process progress uh and i know there's there's work to be done it will continue to make progress uh but you do have my commitment that you know whatever budget is appropriated uh that we will maximize that to help our tribal nations.

Well I and I appreciate that and I and uh I I believe that you will do that, I don't have any doubt about it, but it's important for this committee to remember that the power of the Appropriations Committee is here, uh and we will make those decisions and I can assure you we're not gonna uh sustain cuts of that kind of magnitude in in these programs. And again, I know you submit a budget to OMB, they have their concerns, I recognize that.

Yes, sir.

Uh, but uh, and you, and your job is to defend the budget that you're given. So, again, I respect that. I will just tell you up front, we're not gonna have those kind of cuts in tribal housing uh, grants, so I suspect that'll be true in some of the other areas that this committee on a bipartisan basis will expect. So, you're actually a lucky guy. You're probably gonna walk out of here with more money at the end of the day than you walked in with uh and uh lot of people aren't gonna be able to say that,

Mm-hmm.

but uh again i recognize your job but i want you to understand the reality uh i am also worried about uh section one eighty four program and i'm very happy to see the program's request uh the president's requested authority and necessary resources to operate that essential program but as you know it insures mortgage capital flows to areas that have long been forgotten and ignored by banks and that's a real problem on indian reservations the the legal challenges of how you secure a loan in indian country and dealing with sovereign entities is a real problem for banks but by providing a financial guarantee you make it possible for home mortgage loans uh for an eighty borrowers to be repaid in full and that actually frees up a lot of private capital that otherwise you simply wouldn't be there so i wanna commend you for that and i wanna commend the president's recognition of doing that but Again, back to the basic program, and I'm running out of time here. I just want this committee to understand as we work through this process, one way or the other, we're not gonna have cuts to the order of magnitude that we're talking about in tribal home programs. We just, and we're not going back to where we were three or four years ago. Uh, and I know you've visited some reservations, worked with some tribes. I am very appreciative of that. I think if more Americans went to places like Pine Ridge and saw the housing conditions, They wouldn't believe it. They would think they were in a third world country. The federal government has a special obligation there, trust and treaty obligation, and this committee is gonna do its best to fulfill it under Mister Womack's leadership. But, uh, again, thanks for what you're doing, look forward to working with you through the process.

Thank you.

You're back.

Thank the uh, Chairman, let me translate uh, Mister Secretary, what the wise Chairman just said. W- w- this committee is gonna make your job a lot easier. No need to thank us now. mr. laro

thank you mr. chairman just a a point on what the uh the the chair of the full committee was talking about you propose completely eliminating the self-sufficiency program at hud um and because you you wanna try to promote self-sufficiency but we're gonna eliminate this program used by public housing agencies and tribes to incentivize uh residents to increase their income build savings and achieve economic independence you would eliminate more than sixteen hundred service coordinated jobs that support over a hundred thirty six thousand families across more than eight hundred tribal and affordable housing developments so there we go um continuum of care program designed to promote the end of homelessness uh it is the homeless assistance program authorized to pay for permanent supportive housing um not gonna ask you to comment on any litigation regarding uh uh twenty twenty five i'm gonna remind you that this committee expects the agency to award quarter three and quarter four renewals by the deadlines that are mandated in the twenty twenty six t hunt appropriations act mr. secretary how many beds of permanent supportive housing are funded by this program

well thank you uh mr. delora i really appreciate that

i need i need a number i i because i'm gonna run out of time

you know the housing first model as you said and as i said before is is indeed a a a failed model

how many with all due respect with with all due respect

and we we need to change the way that we approach homelessness

you don't know the answer to the question the answer to the question is it's roughly one hundred and seventy thousand um uh beds of permanent supportive housing funded by the program how many permanent supportive housing beds are proposed to be eliminated in the uh uh fiscal year twenty twenty seven budget request

ma'am i believe that we'll be able to serve more people in the way that we uh are proposing to do c o c

it's going to be a hundred and seventy thousand people do you know how many formerly homeless people could lose their housing under this budget proposal

what are what are you saying

i'm asking you what do you what can you tell us how many formerly homeless people could lose their housing under your budget proposal

what i can say is that we'll be able to serve more people

ok it's estimated to be more than two hundred seventeen thousand people including children who currently rely on continuum of care funded housing that would not be continued under this proposal. Uh, Mister Secretary, do you know what is the fastest growing population among people experiencing homelessness is?

Ma'am, what I do know is that we have record funding and we have record homelessness.

Tell me about the fastest growing population among people experiencing homeless.

I'm he- I'm I'm here to listen.

This is your job to know that.

My job is to make sure that we're actually serving the people that are homeless.

Let let me just say,

You know, that's my job.

the answer is one hundred forty six thousand seniors

Hmm.

were experiencing homelessness in the most recent data. as many as forty percent of people assisted um in permanent supportive housing, funded by the continuum of care program, older adults uh who were formerly homeless and now have achieved some uh uh stability. Um uh do you know which communities would suffer the most permanent supportive housing losses, if uh COC, continuum of care, is eliminated?

Well ma'am, I think a lot of communities are

well let me just let me just answer the question it is primarily rural and suburban communities where more than fifty percent of beds are paid for by federal dollars let me just tell you my colleagues might be interested in this in oklahoma one hundred percent of permanent supportive housing beds are paid for by federal funds ninety eight percent in arizona ninety eight percent in montana eighty two percent in kentucky and indiana um uh uh so so people can understand the supportive services component of supportive housing. Can you provide some examples of these supportive services?

Well, ma'am, what I can provide is that when I came in the hood, I learned that we had almost eight hundred thousand people that were homeless with record funding and that the housing first model was not taking care of this.

OK.

But

But, but do you know what services, do you know what services?

And as secretary, my job is how do we take care of more homeless people to get them treated and transformed.

But, but tell us, tell us what services, so that you don't know the answer to that, it's case management. child care employment assistance and job training life skills training mmm mmm mental health services outpatient health services substance abuse treatment services transportation and utility depo uh deposits mmm permanent support of houses increases housing stability decreases arrest and jail stays decreases time spent homelessness or in shelters decreases the use of the emergency room increases outpatient mental health uh and addiction treatment and frankly most important improves people quality of life you provide no evidence that your proposal will work but we know for certain that you're gonna push thousands of people out of stable housing and uh it's just really unconscionable uh that communities will pay the price emil em eliminating permanent supportive housing is foolish it is more expensive in the long run fails our most vulnerable constituents I yield back

mister Rutherford

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary, it's it's uh great to see you and I and I wanna highlight uh a comment in your written remarks where you said compassion requires results

Yes sir. Yeah.

and not just resources and and I could not agree uh more with that and one of the things that I wanna focus uh on in my questioning is prevention of homelessness um we focus a lot of times on those who are homeless but we don't look at those who are about to fall into homelessness

mmm

and so i wanna focus on housing affordability

mmm

and whether enough housing is being built to meet demand builders i can tell you builders and housing providers continue to raise concerns about construction costs permitting delays and regulatory uh requirements that have slowed development and as a result made projects much more expensive. In fact, in Florida we are also seeing a significant growth in build-to-rent housing with more than thirteen thousand new single-family rental units currently under construction in cities like my hometown of Jacksonville. So my my question is, how is HUD working to reduce those regulatory barriers and help increase the supply of attainable housing for our working families out there who risk falling into homelessness and then secondly how does sud view the role of build to rent communities and how that plays into increasing housing supply and or expanding housing options in fast growing states like florida

yes sir well thank you congressman rutherford i appreciate that it's good to speak with you again sir you know as i've traveled and as you've alluded to uh as you talk to industry experts and you talk to builders and developers uh the regulatory environment really has crippled uh the construction and the development uh industry in our country um open borders illegal immigration all of these things have stifled home building and raised the cost of housing and so what we have done at hud is really you know take the lead in bringing down the affirmatively further and fairer housing uh rule which made uh washington a national zoning board and we restored that flexibility back to localities localities know their unique needs better than you know bureaucrats in washington's to be honest and we've also encouraged as we've traveled around localities uh mayors economic development corporations to take a look and take inventory of their regulatory environment and see how they can ease that environment so that builders can build and buyers can buy uh the president just signed two new executive orders as you know one to reduce the barriers to building uh construction affordable homes and others to bring more competition to the mortgage industry to get the hometown lenders back into the game and so reducing these barriers uh from a federal state and long and a local standpoint uh will help builders to build and also you know taking down the international energy conservation code which added almost thirty thousand dollars to every project you know to help builders builders are already building to these codes and so the regulatory environment has really crippled development in our country and when you look at the build to rent when you look at