Where Are We?: Examining Positioning, Navigation, and Timing Capabilities in the United States

The subcommittee will come to order. The chair recognizes himself for an opening statement. Good morning and welcome to today's subcommittee hearing on positioning, navigation and timing, PNT. The global positioning system known as GPS has been the source of PNT for the United States for decades. Originally developed for military use, GPS was opened to civilian aviation by President Ronald Reagan, following the nineteen eighty-three shoot-down of a Korean Airlines passenger jet that had strayed into Soviet airspace. Subsequent Republican and Democrat presidential administrations further expanded access to GPS for civilian applications. Today, GPS is free for civilian use. Most Americans now think of the technology as a service behind their favorite navigational devices and apps. However, GPS has many more applications and has been widely integrated into multiple sectors of our economy. This includes communications and energy infrastructure, the financial sector for transaction and auth- uh transaction authentication and the transportation sector. GPS is even used to coordinate emergency response and dispatch first responders to incidents more quickly, something we're working to implement nationwide. In natural disasters like Hurricane Helene that affected my state of North Carolina and others, or wildfires in California, uh precious seconds can save lives. Our warfighters also continually continue to rely on GPS, military and civilian signals. As a representative for Fort Bragg, home of special operations and the airborne, I continue to hear from our military leaders about the need for more resilient PNT. The military relies on GPS for logistics like battlefield resupply and to synchronize operations. GPS's military signal underpins navigation for military aircraft, vessels, vehicles, and unmanned systems, while also enabling the precise targeting capabilities on which modern military operations depend. While national security experts have long warned us about the potential for jamming and spoofing, this is now very much a reality. Our adversaries frequently disrupt GPS in contested environments. For instance, just two weeks ago, a Royal Air Force jet carrying the United Kingdom's defense minister lost its GPS signal as a result of suspected Russian jamming. Space is also becoming more contested. Russia and China have been working to develop space-based weapons that threaten US and ally satellite constellations and space-based services, including GPS. Disruptions to this critical technology put our service members at severe risk. And given its broad adoption throughout our economy, a disruption of GPS also has the potential to halt critical services in commerce. But simply a catastrophic failure of GPS as a result of adversary spoofing or jamming would be devastating to our economy. The development adoption of of complimentary PNT services is a bipartisan priority. President Trump has been laser-focused on this challenge. During his first term, President Trump issued an executive order to direct a comprehensive review of the use of P and T services across the federal government and critical infrastructure, understand its vulnerabilities, and improve resilience. That executive order stood through the Biden administration and remains in place. Work is ongoing between federal agencies in concert with the private sector to test P and T alternatives, including terrestrial-based systems. Federal Communications Commission Chair Carr doubled down on this effort by issuing a notice of inquiry last March to explore the development of complementary systems as backups to GPS. On today's panel, we have a range of experts here to speak on the work that's been done to date to improve GPS resiliency, as well as develop and deploy complementary P and T services that can serve as a backup to GPS. I look forward to also hearing about how this committee can help support these efforts Uh, and after years of work, finally moved the ball forward on complimentary P and T. So thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Uh, I really look forward to our discussion. I now recognize the ranking member, the gentlelady from California, for her opening statement.

Thank you very much, Mister Chairman, and I wanna welcome the witnesses for being here today. I'm glad we're holding this hearing today on positioning navigation and timing solutions, or as we call it, P and T. And I'm encouraged that this remains an area of bipartisan interest. This is a highly technical topic, but it affects Americans in very real ways. GPS is the most common PNT system that we use every single day. And most people don't think about it unless they're using a map. But GPS does a lot more than help us with directions. It's working in the background all day, every day. GPS helps keep your internet running, your payments moving, and your bank accounts safer from fraud. It helps keep first responders find you when you call nine one one. It helps planes and vehicles move safely, and it helps farmers, utilities and businesses operate with precision. GPS has transformed our daily life to the point where it's hard to imagine a world without it. But that success also means we've become deeply reliant. And that creates real questions for Congress. What happens if GPS is jammed, spoofed or attacked? What systems are the most vulnerable? What back-up solution back-up solutions are available today, and which are mature, scalable, and ready to support critical infrastructure? And what do we still have, what do we still have gaps? That's why this hearing matters. A serious attack on GPS could be catastrophic and cause billions of dollars of damage. It could shut down communications network, emergency responses, aviation, energy systems, agriculture, and the movement of goods across this country. And there's no single GPS alternative that can do it all. So we need to understand the full range of PNT technologies available that can help keep essential services operating when GPS is unavailable or unreliable. Some of that work is already underway. Our Air Force and Space Force are working to modernize GPS to make it more secure, more resistant to jamming, and better prepared for today's threats. Local broadcasters in cities like Sacramento are already offering a glimpse of what GPS alternatives could look like. Through the rollout rollout of ATSC three point zero, next gen TV local TV towers can help determine a user's location if GPS falls short. We'll also hear from Nextnav, which has developed the technology that can provide vertical vertical location information helping identify what floor someone is on, a high-rise building. And we'll hear from witnesses that have thought seriously about how we safely integrate these technologies. These examples make one thing clear. Reliable back-up PNT can strengthen national security, support innovation, and serve the public. But we must vet each technology carefully. It has to be proven, tested, and shown not to harm public safety, consumers, and critical services. The FCC and other federal agencies must be the guardrails in this process. They must follow the facts, insist on sound science, and make sure public safety is not treated as an afterthought. The stakes are too high to cut corners. I look forward to hearing from my witnesses on how we can make GPS more resilient. where our PNT capabilities stand, what risks deserve the most attention, and how Congress can support innovation, reliability and resilience in this critical space. And with that, I yield back.

Thank you. I now recognize the Chairman of the full committee, the gentleman from Kentucky, for five minutes for his opening statement.

Thank you, Chairman Hudson. Uh, thank you for holding this hearing on an important topic. GPS provides positioning, navigation and timing PNT services to most sectors of the economy and is in integrated into our daily lives beyond just navigation apps and devices. While experts have been sounding the alarm about the vulnerabilities of GPS for decades we are now witnessing the consequences of our delay uh play out in real time. Overseas our adversaries are actively jamming and spoofing GPS in conflict zones, putting our our service members at even greater risk. A disruption to GPS here at home has the potential to be the catastrophic for the economy, an impact, an impact on hundreds of millions of Americans. We need to improve the resiliency of GPS. The good news is that multiple complement complementary P and T solutions are being tested and deployed by the private sector. I look forward to hearing about some of these solutions today. P and T systems include GPS, rely on spectrum to deliver location and time data. That means making sure we have the appropriate spectrum available for these solutions is critical. As the committee with jurisdiction over the FCC and NTIA, we believe that spectrum management decisions like this should continue to be made by the expert agencies working in concert with commercial and federal stakeholders through the existing mechanism such as the Interpart- Inter- Inter-Department Radio Advisory Committee, IRAC. That said, this particular issue is broader, than the run-of-the-mill communication network's issues because of the far-reaching consequences for commerce in the entire U. S. economy. These are engineering problems that can and should be addressed by technical experts and work through transparent public processes. While Congress absolutely has a role in overseeing the expert agencies and ensuring public and other stakeholder input is considered appropriately it is important to allow existing processes to proceed

Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, the ranking member, for five minutes for your opening statement.

Thank you, Chairman Hudson. Today we're discussing our nation's positioning, navigation and timing, P and T technology and capabilities. And while most Americans have not heard of P and T, they're likely familiar with our primary source of P and T data and information, and that is the global positioning system, where GPS. And whether you know it or not, GPS is everywhere, from the Starbucks app, knowing where you are to our power grid, saying, staying on-line and on time, whatever it is, GPS powers it all. And it's not an exaggeration to say that GPS literally helps keep the lights on. gps also has made it easier to track someone without them knowing, which raises real privacy concerns. So we have to ensure that going forward, consumer privacy is considered in a in any future p n t advancements. So gps was first created by the military in the nineteen seventies, and then extended to civilian and commercial use in the nineteen eighties. Importantly, gps has remained a free public benefit since that time, and now serves billions of users around the world. Because of this, it's not surprising that we all have GPS embedded into many of our everyday devices, including navigating our cars or our cells from one location to another. But GPS is also crucial for ensuring our planes, trains and trucks arrive safely and on time. And it aids in weathering monitoring, provides life-saving information to first responders and supports our national defense system. So, it's critical that we understand how GPS is faring and what mechanisms are in place to complement gps in the event of an outage or an attack. As we know, resilient communications networks can be the difference between life and death when the unexpected strikes, and the reality is that gps has vulnerabilities. Unfortunately, due to technical constraints, gps has challenges providing precise location data indoors or underground. But more concerning is that we have seen our foreign adversaries including Russia and China, increasingly interfere with GPS by jamming and spoofing the signal. When jamming occurs, the GPS signal is unable to be used because it's blocked entirely. Even more malicious would spoofing, fake GPS signals send incorrect location and timing information to devices leading one to believe that they're somewhere where they're not. Uh in uh in either case, the consequences is significant and put our national security at risk. In fact, many outage or threat. gps could result in significant threats to public safety, economic loss, transportation service disruptions and property and environmental damage. It's critical that we understand how to both enhance the dis the durability of cps of gps and ensure there are viable alternatives to it. Building resilient and redundant communications networks is always a smart thing to do especially given the stakes at play. It also makes sense for the federal communications commission and other federal agencies to continue to evaluate potential backup technology to gps and these initiatives are needed as we must have a broad selection of gps alternatives in this country whether they operate on the ground or in space because one solution will not work in every geographic terrain or environment now that said the fcc s review of any proposals that could complement gps must be thorough technically sound and in the public interest Given the numerous consumer benefits of GPS, any alternative PNT solutions must also put American consumers first. And therefore, I fully expect the FCC to abide by the requirements of the Communications Act, and undertake a rigorous technical review of any PNT proposals it receives, and ensure that they operate with the public's interest in mind. And this way consumers can be assured that they're protected and not burdened by unexpected costs and unnecessary upgrades. So finally, While securing GPS and any alternatives to it is critical, I continue to strongly believe that these network solutions must be designed with robust consumer privacy protections in mind. Americans should not have to sacrifice their privacy for their security. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, we've now concluded with member opening statements. Uh, the chair reminds members that pursuant to committee rules, all members' opening statements will be made part of the record. We'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today, um, to testify before this subcommittee. Our witnesses will each have five minutes to provide an opening statement, which we w- we'll f- then follow with a round of questions from all the members. Uh, the witnesses here before us today are Lisa Dyer, Executive Director of the GPS Innovation Alliance. Uh, Sam Matheny, Executive Vice President for Broadcasting Positioning Systems with the National Association of Broadcasters. Uh, Mirjam Saran, the Board Chair and Chief Executive Officer of NextNav, and understand today is your birthday.

Yes, Mister Chairman, it's an honor to send my birthday here with all of you.

Well, on behalf of the entire committee, we wish you a very happy birthday. Can't think of a better way to celebrate your birthday than this hearing.

Thank you.

Thank you. Um, and Mister Harold Feld, uh, Senior Vice President of Public Knowledge. And J. David Grossman, the Vice President for Policy and Regulatory Affairs with the Consumer Technology Association. Thank you all for joining us today. Um, Mister Dyer, or Miss Dyer, excuse me, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.

Chairman Hudson, Ranking Member Matsui, Chairman Guthrie, and Ranking Member Pilon, and distinguished members of this subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today about P and T technologies and services in the United States. I am the Executive Director of the GPS Innovation Alliance, as the Chair just mentioned. We are a trade association for the P and T industry. Our member companies have built multi-billion dollar businesses and business units that build and rely on GPS and P and T technologies. We also include small business entrepreneurs who are developing innovative commercial satellite systems. The timing of this hearing is fitting, as our nation prepares to celebrate its two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, and we reflect upon its many achievements. GPS represents one of America's greatest innovations. Nearly every constituent in your district relies on GPS multiple times a year as your opening statements have said. It has also transformed the way that the military thinks strategically and acts tactically. Since becoming operational in nineteen ninety five, GPS has not experienced a single system-wide outage. This unparalleled track record is a testament to American ingenuity, from the thousands of engineers who have designed and built these systems, to the Space Force guardians who are operating GPS today. The GPS constellation consists of thirty-two satellites, eight more than are required for the minimum twenty-four They are radiation hardened, and they offer on-orbit resiliency in the event of an event in space. The FAA reports GPS signal availability at an impressive ninety nine point nine nine percent. The economic benefits are substantial and far greater than the one point four trillion figures cited in the twenty nineteen NIST report. While much has been written about GPS vulnerabilities, It is not uniquely vulnerable to threats. Federal law prohibits the operation, marketing, or sale of jamming equipment that interferes with any authorized radio communications. That said, as you've mentioned, localized jamming and spoofing events, which are much more than just a clever pot device and top gun maverick, do real harm to the aviation and maritime industries. The FCC and the whole of government must dedicate resources to resolving these events. GPS is ripe for rapid modernization. Eight of the thirty-two satellites are operating on a single string, meaning they're one failure away from becoming non-operational. The ground station is undergoing a critical new software upgrade following the Space Force's April twenty twenty-six decision to cancel an overdue program. This represents a real opportunity to rapidly modernize GPS and take a comprehensive approach to integrating commercial, satellite P and T systems into military operations. I'd like to raise two points that I believe deserve more attention in the what's next in P and T discussions. As previously mentioned, technical rigor is essential. Federal spectrum decisions must be grounded in critical technical detail, and protect incumbents from harmful interference. Cost-benefit analyses are essential, and low-cost uh, alternatives, including process changes, should always be considered. Second, and I know this sounds entirely unexciting, but definitions matter. Terms like complimentary, alternative, resilient, and back-up are used interchangeably. A standard lexicon will help Congress, federal agencies, and industry determine whether we have a problem, and if so, identify solutions quickly. GPSIA uses the word complimentary deliberately. No system truly replaces GPS in the highly unlikely event that twenty-four or thirty-two satellites will be unable to transmit signals. The good news is that several compliments are already in use, as a twenty twenty-one DHS report noted, each with advantages and disadvantages. NTIA also provided a very valuable uh inventory in the FCC's notice of Congress has a long history of involvement in P and T, and GPSIA urges your continued engagement. GPS and today's operational complements are real systems that Americans' daily lives and livelihoods depend on. The space-based P and T industry alone includes more than eight hundred and fifty suppliers, across the United States, more than two hundred and seventy-five of which are small businesses, whose P and T capabilities go unheralded, and they operate in forty-five states, they are vital contributors to America's P and T achievements. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you. Mister Matheny, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.

Good morning. Chairman Hudson, Ranking Member Matsui, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Sam Matheny and I serve as Chief Executive Officer of Market Solutions. Prior to this new role, I spent twelve years as Chief Technology Officer at the National Association of Broadcasters. I'm grateful for the opportunity to testify today and the urg on the urgent need for resilient alternatives and complements to the global positioning system. This week, NAB announced the launch of Market Solutions, an independent company whose mission is to deploy the Broadcast Positioning System or BPS as the primary complementary PNT solution to enhance national and economic security. BPS is a patented terrestrial timing and positioning technology that leverages existing high-power broadcast infrastructure and licensed spectrum already covering the United States. BPS was first conceived by my team at NAB in two thousand twenty-one, and you can think of it as the terrestrial equivalent of GPS. Our nation's economy and national security increasingly depend upon precise timing and positioning services delivered by GPS. Yet the United States has become dangerously over-dependent on a single contested signal from space that remains vulnerable to jamming, spoofing, cyber attacks, and natural disruption. These risks endanger virtually every American critical infrastructure sector, including energy, telecommunications, data centers, and financial services. where a disruption to precision time can trigger grid instability, network outages, and lost transactions. BPS has been designed to address this more than a billion dollar a day economic and national security risk by using our country's extensive existing broadcast infrastructure to serve as a reliable and equally effective terrestrial complement to GPS. BPS offers several advantages. First, the infrastructure is already in place. America's local broadcasters currently operate resilient transmission facilities in every corner of the country. Second, BPS signals are transmitted at high power from tall towers in diverse locations. This makes BPS very difficult to jam or spoof at scale. This is unlike GPS signals, which operate on a relatively narrow band of spectrum and are weak when received on Earth. making local interference easier. Third, BPS uses existing license spectrum. Fourth, BPS supports unlimited simultaneous users, this means no bottlenecks, which is essential for emergency and critical infrastructure applications. Finally, BPS is independent of GPS and other global navigation satellite systems, functioning even when GPS is compromised. Beyond serving as a backup, This means BPS can be used to monitor the health of GPS. BPS has been developed in collaboration with the US government and critical infrastructure industries, to ensure that it can meet the need of critical infrastructure. And it has already moved beyond concept. In two thousand twenty-five, NIST concluded BPS time transfer is comparable to or better than GPS, making BPS a viable complementary P and T solution when GPS is unavailable. Last year, the Department of Transportation awarded NAB a contract to deploy a BPS field trial with critical infrastructure partner Dominion Energy. BPS has been installed at one of the largest substations on the East Coast and this trial has yielded impressive results thus far. BPS can strengthen national resilience, but speed and scale will require coordinated policy support. Congress can help in three practical ways. First, Congress should help accelerate BPS installation and operations through funding for traceable time station hardware calibration ongoing network operations and monitoring second Congress should support and work with the administration to help designate a lead agency to expedite the activation of BPS and other complements to GPS finally Congress should encourage the Federal Communications Commission to complete the important work it has already initiated on ATSC three dot O. In addition to the significant benefits to television viewers, including upgraded picture and sound and better emergency alerting, the full benefits of BPS cannot be harnessed until the FCC completes its work on the ATSC three dot O transition. In conclusion, broadcasters have always served communities in moments of need. Through BPS, that public service can extend directly to protecting our critical infrastructure, and enhancing our national security. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you. Ms. Harand, you are recognized for five minutes for an opening statement.

Good morning, Chairman Hudson, Ranking Member Matsui, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Pallone, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. My name is Mariam Sarand, and I serve as CEO and Board Chair of NextNav. I've spent nearly three decades in the wireless industry in senior technology roles at VMware, CableLabs and Dishnetwork. I have served on the FCC's Technological Advisory Council, on NTIA's Commerce Spectrum Management Advisory Committee, and I serve on CTIA's Board of Directors. I'm grateful for the subcommittee's attention to PNT resiliency and for framing today's he- hearing around the question of "where are we?" That's the right question. It gets to the core of why PNT resiliency is a vital national security, economic, and public safety imperative. PNT is the invisible but essential backbone that much of modern life depends on. Positioning tells you where you are, navigation tells you how to get there, and timing provides a precise common clock that lets independent systems agree on when something happened or must happen down to the billionth of a second. For most Americans, PNT is just there, like the electricity in our homes. And like electricity, PNT is foundational. When the grid holds through a heat wave and your air conditioning keeps running, PNT keeps the power plants in sync. When a nine one one call routes to the nearest dispatcher, PNT locates the caller. When a family on a road trip travels this country, PNT is guiding them along their route. Today nearly all of that depends on one source, GPS satellites. GPS is one of the great American achievements of the last half century, a national treasure we built and gave to the world. It is also a single point of failure. So what happens if GPS is degraded, jammed, spoofed, or at- attacked? That is not hypothetical. We have seen many cases of jamming and spoofing in geopolitical hot spots around the world, as well as right here in the United States. In twenty twenty two, a jamming incident shut down a runway at Dallas-Fort Worth, one of the world's busiest airports. And GPS interference has been reported in communi- crea- communities across the United States. China and Russia have built ground-based backups to GPS. The United States has not. But together, we can change that. Every presidential administration this century, and members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, have identified PNT resilience as a critical national imperative, and yet, the United States still has no ground-based backups to GPS. That is a problem Nextnav is helping to solve, and what we mean when we talk about PNT resiliency. Nextnav is an American company that has spent two decades focused on strengthening America's PNT infrastructure. Public safety is in our DNA. Our pinnacle vertical location service operates in more than four thousand four hundred US cities. Today, it helps first responders locate nine one one callers inside high rises and other places, where Z access location is critical, where seconds save lives. We are the only commercial vertical location provider serving FirstNet. which has called Ziaxis a key capability. And we also serve all three national wireless carriers. Nextnap has developed a commercially viable ground-based complement and backup to GPS deployable in the near term, on existing five G infrastructure, and at no cost to taxpayers. Nextnap welcomes the engagement of every sector that depends on reliable PNT, including those who have raised potential interference concerns. Because we have the shared goal of improving lives for communi- communities across the country. Our commitment to getting this right is why we have proactively sought opportunities for joint testing with stakeholders across industries. Ultimately, we have full confidence in the FCC's engineers and technical staff to rigorously evaluate all technical questions and the evidence on the record as it continues to build PNT resilience. I am confident that through the FCC process, Nextnap will demonstrate that our complement and backup to GPS can be an important part of the P and T solution for the country. We believe that many systems working together are stronger and safer than one. We welcome other technologies into the layered P and T architecture America needs, and I look forward to hearing from the other witnesses today. Congress has a vital role in ensuring that America builds a resilient PNT architecture. I appreciate this subcommittee's focus on this issue and the opportunity to discuss next time's role today. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you. Uh, Mister Feld, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.

Thank you. Few people realize how much we rely on GPS in our daily lives. For example, we all know we use GPS for mapping apps, but how many know that the cell phone system itself depends on the precision timing function of GPS to function. This is just one example of the billions of dollars in commerce and social activity that rests invisibly on the free availability of GPS. GPS has become a public good. Like our national road system, like clean water and sanitation, it is essential for our daily lives. And like WiFi supported by unlicensed spectrum, it is penetrated everywhere. Of course, the private sector still has a major role to play in providing alternate PNT systems and innovation around PNT uses. To take one of the oldest and most familiar examples, GPS did not load street maps onto devices in order to help people navigate. Private companies did that. Companies with critical needs, such as cell phone system, use private PNT systems to provide supplements and backups. Redundancy is reliability. But none of this would have happened without open, reliable, and freely available GPS to act as the backbone and support. Much still depends on it and innovation continues around it. It must remain a public good that serves the public interest. We must enhance it for the betterment of everyone, not privatize it or allow it to degrade in favor of private systems. As a public good, PNT requires proper management in the public interest. First, the US's free, publicly accessible GPS must remain the global gold standard for PNT. We must prioritize upgrading public GPS to enhance reliability, resiliency and accuracy. All relevant federal agencies, including the military, should be directed to work together to achieve this goal. Congress must devote sufficient funding to upgrade GPS as quickly as possible. Jamming and spoofing are already realities, and we must act to address these threats now. Imagine the chaos and confusion a fleet of jamming drones could create in a crowded city, especially as part of a broader terrorist attack. Less dramatically, a failure of older satellites throw off sensitive functions on which public safety, businesses, and consumers depend. Next, the federal government must lead a responsible orderly transition to a more reliable more resilient next generation GPS. This will take time and planning, especially for any improvements that are not backward compatible with existing and deployed technology. Finally, I strongly urge consideration of incorporating privacy by design into future P and T systems. While GPS has been a tremendous boon, it has also converted virtually every mobile device into a digital We tend to think of PNT as an engineering question with policy layered on after the fact. Instead, we must make our policy goals system design goals. We would of course continue to need strong privacy laws, but if we build a GPS system designed with privacy in mind, it becomes easier to protect privacy by law. Privacy law works better with a system that cannot violate your privacy in the first place. While I would like to end here and just talk about the public interest, I need to address the private proprietary P and T providers invited to this hearing. Unlike other private P and T providers, these systems want something when from the government other than money, while claiming to do the taxpayer enormous favors for free. After twenty-five years in public advocacy, I have learned that the actual scariest words in public policy are " hi, I'm from the private sector and I'm here to help at absolutely no cost to the taxpayer". The Broadcast Positioning System is a potentially good product. But anyone familiar with the FCC ATSC docket will see that the proposed ATSC transition has raised many complicated and contentious questions. We must not short-circuit the careful consideration needed here in order to rush BPS to market. Next nav offers an even more troubling trade. It wants a multi-billion dollar infusion of new spectrum rights in the nine hundred megahertz band, combined with a dramatic change in existing rules, and to have the freedom to wipe out billions of dollars in products and services, that consumers, power utilities, public safety responders, the security industry, the aviation industry, retailers, and countless others use every day. For something free, it promises to cost the public a hell of a lot. To conclude, GPS remains one of the most important contributions to the general public and the world. Congress must continue to develop and enhance it as the crown jewel it is, not look to private it, privatize it or abandon it. even as it does the necessary work of facilitating complementary PNT systems. Thank you, and I am happy to answer any questions at this time.

Thank you. Uh, Mister Grossman, you're recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.

Chairman Hudson, Ranking Member Matsui, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Pallone, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is David Grossman. I'm the Vice President of Policy and Regulatory As North America's largest technology association, CTA represents over twelve hundred companies, more than eighty percent small businesses and startups. We support an industry responsible for more than seventeen million American jobs. We also produce CES, the world's most powerful tech event, which for years has been the launch pad for the latest GPS-enabled technologies. like this one, released more than twenty years ago, as well as devices using the lower nine hundred megahertz band. GPS remains one of the most important technologies our nation has ever developed. It underpins trillions of dollars in economic activity, supports critical infrastructure, powers modern commerce, and provides a strategic advantage for the United States. Protecting and strengthening GPS resilience is both an economic and national security imperative. CTA today offers three recommendations for this subcommittee's consideration. First, Congress should strengthen GPS resilience and modernization. Successive administrations and federal agencies, including the FCC, have recognized the need for complementary and back-up PNT solutions. At the same time, GPS itself must be modernized. Second, This United States should pursue a market-driven approach to complementary P and T. No single back-up solution will meet every need. Some applications may benefit from terrestrial systems, others from satellite-based services, and many will rely on multiple technologies. Government should establish objectives, not mandate solutions for devices or industries. America's innovation advantage comes from competition, and private sector investment. Third, policymakers must protect the lower nine hundred megahertz band. CTA opposes proposals that would disrupt the operating environment for the hundreds of millions of licensed and unlicensed devices already using this spectrum. It's also worth recognizing current uses for this innovation band. Unlike as some have suggested, this, the lower nine hundred megahertz band is not underutilized. First responders use it for critical applications like manned down systems and wildfire sensing. Medical alert pendants help seniors age safely at home. And the band is essential for wireless alarm systems, motion detectors, smoke alarms, and smart locks. Retailers use RFID systems to manage inventory. Utilities use the band to remotely monitor and manage critical infrastructure. And electronic tolling systems use the band to reduce congestion and provide needed funding for roads. The lower nine hundred megahertz band enables farmers to improve yields and conserve water. Even the U. S. military depends on the band for logistics tracking. These technologies represent decades of investment, hundreds of millions of dollars of deployed devices, and billions of dollars in economic activity. Many of these systems were specifically designed around the unique characteristics of the spectrum, and would be expensive and challenging, if not impossible, to replace. Reconfiguring this band could introduce harmful interference and impose significant costs for the consumers and businesses that depend on these technologies every day. We do not have to sacrifice the success of the lower nine hundred megahertz band to improve GPS resilience. Numerous complementary PN T technologies are already available. America can strengthen GPS resilience while preserving the innovation ecosystem that powers so much of our economy. Congress should continue supporting GPS modernization, encourage a diverse and competitive marketplace for complementary PN T technologies, and protect existing spectrum users from harmful interference. The United States became the global leader in GPS by combining technological innovation with smart policy. We should follow that same model today. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you. Uh, we'll now begin questioning, and I'll recognize myself for five minutes. Um, Miss Dyer, can you bring home for us why should Americans care um about complimentary P and T? How would a GPS failure without backups impact your everyday American in their daily lives?

Thank you, Congressman, for the question. I I think one one point is that the risk of failure of the system at large is a little bit overstated. We have thirty-two satellites on orbit, and there are plenty of satellites that would still, if if God forbid something happened, would still continue to operate. The localized jamming and spoofing capabilities that are impacting the aviation and maritime industries and ap- Americans living along the southern border, those are localized events and the focus should be on the bad actors and stopping the bad actors as opposed to the focus on GPS. Why people should care. It is an incredible achievement, as many of us have said up here, just how much ease it brings to our lives. I have a lovely two thousand nine atlas in my car still. It was given to me by a dear uncle. But it is so amazing to be able to pull out and navigate. I like being able to take transactions on my phones. I like knowing that our military has the top-of-line technology that help to protect us overseas and to protect themselves overseas.

Great. Thank you for that. Um, so next nav's position before the FCC proposes reorganizing uh the nine O two through nine twenty eight megahertz band and bifurcating it into two parts one for unlicensed and consolidating their license into the other position. Uh Mister Grossman um I've heard from stakeholders and heard in your testimony um but the stakeholders who currently operate in the band about their concerns with this proposal could you walk us through how unlicensed users operate in that band and could you help us understand the technical reasons behind unlicensed users' stated need for access to the full nine O two through nine twenty eight megahertz band.

Thank you for that great question, Mr. Chairman. Um, the reason that the nine hu- the lower nine hundred megahertz band is the incredible innovation story that it is is not an accident. It is a result of deliberate decisions made by the FCC, starting as early as nineteen uh eighty nine and nineteen ninety, which first authorized that band for unlicensed use. Uh, many of us will remember in the mid-nineteen nineties, uh, cordless phones using the nine hundred megahertz band and in the mid nineteen nineties, the LMS band was authorized and uh to specifically your question around how unlicensed uh uh devices are able to operate with LMS users and licensed users again was a deliberate process around providing protections both to the licensed and unlicensed users in the band. And from that we have seen this incredible innovation ecosystem come about, any of the stakeholders you heard me speak about in our testimony, uh and now today more than hundreds of millions of devices impacting just about every industry across our economy.

Thank you for that. Um and Miss Heron, I'd like to give you an opportunity to answer the same question from your perspective.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, for that question. Um, Nextnap currently holds licenses in the nine hundred megahertz band that we acquired at auction and also secondary markets. The rules for this band were written in the nineties, exactly when we used dial-up internet, and you heard the phone line, uh when you did that. FCC modernizes its rules as part of its process, and what we are asking for is a modernization of these rules because if we we didn't then it really hampers technical and innovative advancement. we fully recognize the use of this band in many other capacities we really would like to work continue to work with the fcc to address any of these concerns through their process and we have also reached out to all the stakeholders and we will continue to do that to make sure that everybody continues in these very important functions in this band

thank you for that i'm down to thirty seconds and i have a

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Um, Um, Broadcast Position System, or as we say, BPS, Broadcast Position System, or as we say, BPS, is an emerging technology that could help back up is an emerging technology that could help back up GPS. By using technology like ATS C three point zero, it could allow broadcast towers to help provide timing and location services when GPS is unavailable or disrupted. Sacramento was one of the first cities in Northern California to launch commercial next-gen TV, and today there are six systems in the region that use ATS C three point zero. Mister Math Matheny. In a region like Sacramento, where flood protection and emergency are major priorities. How could BPS help strengthen public safety and resilience?

Thank you, Ranking Member Matsui. Um, BPS is a uh powerful tool that can be used to strengthen uh emergency response by providing a alternative source of time if GPS were ever compromised. Uh, one of the things that I would call attention to is a study that was done by the critical infrastructure resilience institute on behalf of the department of homeland security um it studies five g uh survivability as well as land mobile radio survivability and it recommends bps as a solution uh to provide time if there were ever a disruption of gps

ok thank you um there's been um lots of debate concerning next net's proposal to reconfigure a nine hundred megahertz van The full FCC record speaks to that. Mister Grossman, Mister Feld and Miss Dyer, all your organizations file com comments opposing next NAV's proposal. Could you three please give a quick yes or no to the following questions? Does your organization believe that next NAV's proposal raises interference concerning concerns with current users of a nine hundred megahertz band? Miss Dyer?

Yes.

Mister Feld?

Hell yes.

Mister Grossman.

Yes.

Okay, does your organization believe that Nextnet had adequately addressed those interference concerns with technical reports at the FCC? Once again, Miss Dyer?

No. No.

Miss Fell, Mister Fell and Mister Grossman.

Hell no.

Okay.

No.

Okay, um, the FCC needs to demonstrate to the public before it moves forward in on any proposal in nine hundred megahertz that will not harm public safety, Consumer small businesses are the flood warning infrastructure that stands between American communities and disaster. I have worked for years to strengthen um consumer privacy and make sure new technologies are built around people's safety and trust. Mister Feld, how do we make sure new PNT systems improve safety and reliability without creating new ways for bad actors to attract people? without proper safeguards.

We need to first of all establish that this is a system requirement and not something that is nice to have. Uh, the uh problems with GPS right now are in part a result of nobody's thought of consequences when we uh developed the system in this regard. The second I would argue is we need to have standards and certifications whether voluntary or mandatory, I'd prefer mandatory, uh, developed by NIST and others, um, for the systems which would guarantee a particular level of privacy by design. The basic rules for privacy by design, don't collect more information than you have to, don't store it, uh, longer than you have to, and do your best to keep it from being traceable back to any particular individual.

Okay, thank you. Um, GPS works nationwide and globally, including rural areas, on the water and in places without nearby cell towers. Miss Sorin, Nextnap has described its proposal as a complimentary and backup system for GPS. Critics have argued that your system will be most effective in areas where sufficient five G infrastructure already exists, while less effective in rural or remote areas. How do you respond to that concern?

Thank you, ranking member, for the question. Um, next half solution is terrestrial based on the five G footprint, which covers more than ninety six percent of the population, uh in the critical areas, for example where first responders are, uh but also next half has always said that PNT backup needs to be a system of systems, it needs to be a multi-layered architecture, it needs to have the other technologies, it needs to have satellite resiliency also for rural areas that this ninety-six percent of the population does not cover.

Okay, thank you very much and uh looks like I'm out of time, so

General Lady Yields back, uh the chair recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mister Guthrie, for five minutes to ask your questions.

Thank you, Mister Chair, and thank all you for being here and you know, this committee has jurisdiction over spectrum policy and and I have personally worked on spectrum policy over the many years, particularly with my good friend from California Miss Matsui. And and I've seen how spectrum policy has grown more contentious due to the uh diminishing amount of available bans for both licensed and unlicensed users and the greater density of incumbent users. The task of allocating bans has become even more technically challenging. And I wanna set up, I think we all agree, if you can s- say if you disagree with me on this, I won't go down make everybody answer, but that the FCC and the NTIA NTIA are the expert agencies with the technical expertise and statue of authority over spectral management decisions. And also think we all agree that the FCC should consider public, commercial stakeholders, including both licensed and unlicensed users, and the federal agency input as it decides spectrum policy and other items before the commission. So I guess my question I'd like for each of you to to answer to get to is with the FCC and the NTIA having the technical ability and having to take all into account, Should Congress make technical decision technical decisions about spectrum policy through the appropriations process? And Miss Dyer, you can go first.

The No, I will say though that when you fund a system like GPS through the Appropriations Committee you are supporting the spectrum that GPS uses.

Okay. Mister

No.

Mark Mount, nope.

No. No.

No.

No.

Uh, Chairman Guthrie, the the Energy and Commerce Committee in the house is uh has primary oversight of the FCC, and uh this is this hearing is an example of the committee's leadership on spectrum policy issues.

Mm.

So you think that through the appropriations process we should regulate spectrum? The problem is that we have challenges on spectrum in a lot of ways. We had a l- a lot of work on the Defense Act. uh uh I mean on uh the one big beautiful bill in defense areas and so forth. And so we sit down and work those things out through the process. And now we're uh and so my my question though, do you think that should be handled through the appropriations process or, like you said, these hearings and and through the technical agencies we delegate the authority to?

Chairman Guthrie, spectrum policy should in the house should be handled in this committee in the house energy and commerce.

Okay. Um so Mr. Grossman, I'll go to you next, um what challenges exist in ensuring that existing systems can take advantage of alternative P and T solutions, and what barriers currently exist to the adoption of these backup signals.

Thank you for that question, Mr. Chairman. Uh, by our estimate, there are uh anywhere in the neighborhood of forty to sixty complementary P and T technologies uh either already available or in development uh um my colleague, Miss Dyer, spoke about in her testimony seventeen complimentary p n t solutions that are available our our view is that there is no one size fits all approach the electric grid and you heard that in some of the opening statements relies on the timing portion of p n t uh they are gonna have a specific uh p n t requirements that may be different than wireless uh networks that also p n t use p n t or similarly the aviation community also relies on g p s they're gonna have different requirements. So we want to look at each of these industries and make a determination on which is the best complementary P and T approach.

OK, thanks. So there goes the Mr. Dyer. I wa- I wanna that's leads right into my next question. So how can Congress be constructive in supporting the development of private sector P and T solutions without picking winners and losers?

You know, we we're spending a lot of time focused on one particular solution, but as as my colleague just mentioned there are numerous ones out there that have thrived because the marketplace has demanded them there are backup systems operating in our electrical grid today there are a number of other technologies that allow the aviation community plus excellent training of our commercial pilots about what to do when something goes wrong with their navigation systems so there are a lot uh it's hard to understate that there are there is a robust commercial capability already in place in a number of ways, and that's in large part because of the commercial sector making the right moves. Companies have a lot of uh reputational risk and a lot of financial incentives to make sure that their customers can maintain the services that they're expecting.

Is there something we need to do to help to improve the this expansion, or is there just Congress stay out of the way and let the commercial market make it what happen?

Having hearings like this where we can uncover some of the challenges that are facing the companies as they're trying to move forward, and uncovering their acts and deals.

Now I'm just out of time, but I we hopefully we can answer what challenges are facing, how we can be helpful. So, um, I'm out of time.

Yeah.

I'll yell back. Thank you.

Thank you, Chairman Guthrie.

Thanks.

Uh, chair, now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mister Palone, for five minutes for your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday I I spoke at a hearing on a national privacy regime that the uh republicans have put together um you know that obviously focuses on entities collecting and using data responsibly and while gps has been a real benefit to our economic and national security it was not built with privacy in mind and in your testimony mister feld you note that we need to quote bake in privacy for the next generation of p and t technology so my question is i have three actually would passing comprehensive federal data privacy legislation that implements clear rules around data minimization help ensure that privacy is designed into future PN T systems and any technological upgrades and if so how?

It would

About a minute.

it would definitely help. Uh part of this is if the law is clear that uh there's no profit in building this uh privacy violating capacities into the system then

Okay. And um I also stated earlier we need a broad range of P and T solutions in this country but any solution must operate in the public's interest so now I'm gonna go to Ms. Sorin I understand Nextnav Nav has a proposal pending before the FCC for its five G P and T solution does Nextnav also have existing P and T services that are operational today? And if so, does NextNav's five G solution need to operate in the same spectrum band as its existing P and T services or can NextNav deploy this new P and T technology in spectrum band, where five G already operates today? You get that?

Thank you, ranking member, uh, for those very good questions. NextNav does currently operate today. In fact, our solution saves lives. Uh in this room today you have several chiefs and uh deputy chiefs from several counties, Fairfax County, uh Boston, in this room. That's who we work with. We work with them to understand their needs, to save lives. We work with them to provide a vertical Z axis solution that tells you what floor of a building you are, which actually you can't do with GPS cuz the signals don't get indoors. So you need that today, and it is being used commercially, and I spend a lot of my time listening to these fire fighters' stories about people who die from the entrance, forty feet away, just because you can't locate them. You need to listen to their dispatches, and that's when you get passionate about what we're doing today. So that is an incredibly important aspect of what we provide. We also would like to expand that in the backup form, meaning GPS needs complements, cuz it doesn't work well indoor, but it also needs a backup. And that's where we'll call XY. So you hear a lot Z axis, which is the vertical solution. XY is a horizontal solution. We need to extend this. So we currently operate, we own the spectrum licenses and we operate in this band. We also have a five G system up in Santa Clara today in a very extensive covers that we'd love to have you all see on how amazing the current new innovation is on providing you accurate both positioning in a three D manner and timing solution our proposal at the FCC is to modernize our existing spectrum and we would like to work with them and you and everyone over here to move forward on this process thank you

alright now i'm gonna back to mister feld about a minute why is it important that we invest in our country's PNT system to ensure that it's both resilient and redundant and what are the consequences consumers will face if we fail to do so got about a minute left

as every yeah witness here has testified we depend on it and we depend on it in ways we even don't know we're depending on it because it has been an open freely available system it has been plugged into everything we cannot allow this to degenerate we cannot allow this to be shifted to a private uh uh sector approach only but as others have also mentioned because individual industries and individual locations have particular needs there is tremendous value in having private sector p n t alternatives available for backup for resiliency and that address the local uh environment and needs.

alright thank you so much thank you to the panel i yield back mister chairman

Thank you. Uh, the chair now recognizes the vice chair of the committee, Mister Allen from Georgia, for five minutes for your question.

Uh, thank you, Chairman Hudson, for holding this hearing. I thank the witnesses for testifying and being here today, share your expertise on this important subject we're talking about today. Uh, Lycan Chairman Hudson's home state of North Carolina, Her- Hurricane Helene wreaked, uh, havoc in Georgia's twelfth district. Mrs. Dyer, could you talk about the importance of p t p n t broadly to our first responders

absolutely thank you for the question i uh g p s actually is has an advantage over terrestrial based systems in man-made natural disasters such as the tragic hurricane that went through your area as well as the maui wildfires and the california wildfires it wiped out the terrestrial infrastructure in those areas and it's taken a long time to rebuild that. In the meantime there are devices that people can carry that are in their pocket, that allow people to connect to uh emergency services. When cellular towers are down, there are capabilities where you can use those devices and connect with a satellite and it will send your GPS location back to call centers,

Mm-hmm.

who will then dispatch emergency services to where you're locating. it's an incredible system that relies on satellite only and is essential as you mentioned during these types of incidents.

Good, thank you. Mister Feld uh do you have anything to add to my question on the um uh talking about the importance of GPS and PNT uh broadly to our first responders, anything to add there?

Yes. First we need to recognize that there are two elements of this problem. One is the consumer side, and that is where uh Nextnet, back when it used to be Progeny, made its contributions so that cell phones can communicate the correct location to first responders.

Mm-hmm.

The other is for first responders themselves, especially teams that are sent to areas with which they are unfamiliar in response to what national disasters will need to be able to navigate and existing uh GPS may not be adequate depending upon the environment. So we need to actually look at both sides of this equation.

Uh, Mister Matheny, as in your testimony you mentioned the resiliency of broadcast infrastructure in times of emergency. Hurricane Helene dav- devastated uh physical communications infrastructure. Could you speak more about how that will translate to resilience in the broadcast positioning system?

Vice Chairman Allen, um, I'm from North Carolina, uh, originally, and have experienced numerous hurricanes myself. um, growing up and uh what I can say is that um broadcast infrastructure is some of the most reliable infrastructure there is it is built to stay on the air, twenty four seven three sixty five uh the facilities are uh hardened such that they have generator uh backups and eh that is currently being used as uh a source of the backbone of the emergency alert system. What we're talking about with BPS is extending that resiliency to um critical infrastructure so that cell towers can stay operational, so that power grid can stay operational. And we believe that BPS can be uh a major contributor uh to uh our response in weather emergencies.

Thank you. Uh, Mister Matheny, in addition to my position here on the CNT subcommittee I also serve on the Energy subcommittee. Proud to represent Plant Vogel, the first commercial nuclear reactors built in the US in over three decades. Allowable power is essential for economic growth. In your testimony you mentioned a National Institute of Standards and Technology project with dominion energy. Ensuring our nation's electrical grids and other critical ins- infrastructure have a reliable backup to GPS is important to our economic and national security. Can you expand on what we've learned from this pilot program and how a Broadcast Positioning System or BPS could be utilized by the energy sector?

Uh, thank you for that question, um, Vice Chairman Allen. So, what we have learned is that the energy grid uses precision timing in a variety of ways. Uh, it uses it to time align the energy so it can actually flow across the grid and get to its destination. Uh, and it's also used in fault tolerance monitoring. Power lines are really long. If there is an issue somewhere, you need to be able to deploy that crew. exactly to where the fault is, and that is one of the ways uh that uh precision time is used. BPS as an uh alternative system has plugged right in and uh can provide the same uh or better uh performance than uh what is provided by GPS today.

Thank you very much, and I thank all of you for your sharing your expertise today. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Thank you. Uh, the chair recognizes the very well-dressed gentlelady from New York. That's good-looking jacket you got on there, good choice, um, for five minutes for your questions.

Good morning and thank you, Mister Chairman, and thank you, uh, Ranking Member Matsui for holding this important hearing, and thank you to our panel of witnesses for joining us today. Positioning, navigation, and timing, or P and T infrastructure is an essential public utility that impacts almost every aspect of modern American life. As co-chair of the Smart Cities Caucus, I know just how critical reliable PNT data is for technology like the Internet of Things, connected medical devices, precision logistics, smart meters, and so much more. While GPS has long served as our nation's primary indispensable source of PNT for decades, we cannot ignore the growing threat of signal jamming, spoofing, severe space weather, poses to this system. Building a layered and resilient terrestrial and space-based PNT architecture is a common sense imperative for both national security and consumer protection. However, as we evaluate alternative PNT proposals, we must remember that PNT has evolved into a fundamental public good. GPS is free to the public, universally accessible, and deeply embedded in vulnerable consumer networks. Any effort by the FCC to expand commercial P and T networks must be thoroughly examined to ensure it does it does result it doesn't result in harmful interference create costly subscript subscription barriers threaten public safety or disrupt the existing spectrum ecosystem that powers much of our everyday lives. While it is essential that we build resilient systems, we cannot allow the urgent pursuit of technological resiliency to become an avenue for corporate giveaways that leave low-income minority or disconnected communities to the carry the burden of unexpected costs or predatory digital redlining. Many industry stakeholders and consumer advocates have argued that if a high-power commercial P and T network is jammed into the nine hundred megahertz band, the potential for harmful interference is staggering and could knock out home security alarms, baby monitors, consumer medical equipment, and the electric smart meters that families use to keep their utilities running efficiently. Forcing everyday Americans to replace perfectly good devices or absorb the cost of sudden hardware upgrades, is nothing short of a tech tax on working class. I believe together, Republicans and Democrats, private companies and the public sector can come together to create a more resilient P and T architecture that does not result in harm to our national security, or additional exorbitant cost to American consumers, and I look forward to working with you all to do so. Um, Miss Sorrent, next nav's proposal has drawn a lot of opposition from business and consumers that use devices built on the unlicensed spectrum in the nine hundred megahertz megahertz band who say that adding a high-powered licensed operation into the band could be catastrophic to the coexistence framework that has enabled innovation for years how do you assess the potential impact on the unlicensed users in the band today and are there requirements or standards that could provide certainty and continuity without degrading unlicensed services and devices.

congresswoman thank you for asking that very important question and i understand your concern uh next nav currently holds and operates in the spectrum licenses uh in fact we're reducing power in one portion of it um we have demonstrated through simulations through lab and through field that we do not see any impact to the unlicensed operations. We currently have a not live network in Santa Clara, and we also have existing network across the country, and we have not heard a single complaint of interference. We will continue to work with the FCC, and I think that is the agency that for over decades has listened to concerns on every side, because we believe these other operations are very important as well. And the FCC staff and engineers are the experts who will look at our very solid, and I'm an engineer by the way, um, very solid record that we've put on their fact-based, engineering-based, and operational-based. And they will also listen and hear from the other side on their technical data and fact-based arguments. and we believe in their process to make a decision.

Very well. Uh, you're back, Mister Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, representing LATTA, for five minutes to ask your questions.

Well, thanks Mister Chairman. Thanks to our uh witnesses for being here today. Uh, Mister, if I could uh start uh my questioning with you, uh, you know in your testimony there's good news. It says that you have that since nineteen ninety-five, GPS has not experienced a single system wide outage. That's great news. But the things I worry about are a little bit later in your testimony. Uh, you say from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty, China launches its entire third generation satellites in three years, and during that time the United States has only launched one. And then also you you you men you mentioned this, China's satellites transmit from two orbits. What's the advantage or disadvantage?

Thank you for that question, uh Congressman. There, we are concerned about that as well. China in three years launched an entire third generation system that is equivalent in some ways is has some advantages to GPS. We are we are i- interested in looking at the diversity of orbits. In fact, in our filing to the FCC's notice of inquiry, that was one of our standards for what constitutes a complimentary P and T system is that there is a diversity of orbits. And the benefits of that is that if there is a threat in one orbit, you still have P and T systems in another orbit that can continue to transmit signals that everyone relies upon including your constituents.

Well, let me uh continue on because you also with our the GPS third uh third and the GPS uh three F satellites especially the three F's you say offer sixty three times greater anti-gaming cap capabilities for military users. But at the same time, they don't offer the same anti-jamming or s- counter spoofing capabilities for civil, commercial, or scientific users. Why not?

That's a great question. Uh, we are we we wonder that as well because one of the things about GPS is that there are encrypted signals that come down that are specifically for the military and the civil and commercial and scientific users use what are called civil signals. What uh there's a misperception that those are two different paths and they only serve those uh systems uh each other. Actually the Defense Department relies heavily on those civil signals because they outsource so much of their logistics work to the aviation and maritime communities the rail systems all kinds of different systems so it's a mystery to us we submitted recommendations that uh around the jamming and spoofing incident to Secretaries Hexseth and Duffy and recommended that was one of our is that they come up with counter spoofing capabilities for those civil signals.

Well, well thank you very much. Mister Grossman, uh, I've worked on the precision agriculture satellite connectivity act, which passed this house as part of this year's farm bill. And in your testimony, uh, you me- uh, you mentioned the importance of satellites and GPS systems in order for precision agriculture technologies to work. How can we ensure that these technologies are seamless, complementary to PNT systems and backups to GPS are developed and adopted.

Thank you for that question, Congressman, and I know how much of a champion you've been for precision agriculture. The the GPS story uh in agriculture i- is really a remarkable one. You think about for the farmer today, uh a GPS equipped tractor or combine combined with wireless connectivity uh uh can enable the the tractor to run uh semi-autonomously. and uh using gps and uh a corrective technology for example like rtk they can get down to centimeter level accuracy and for the farmer that means being able to uh uh for the technology be able to know the difference between a weed and a plant so you're therefore reducing uh uh time saving money uh and um uh those are two of the primary and also uh conserving water Um, so clearly, uh, when we talk about complementary P and T, it's another important use case for why we should look at a all of above approach. I would also point out that the agriculture community is using the lower nine hundred megahertz band including iconic American companies like John Deere. Um, so it's important, uh, while we explore complementary P and T solutions, that we also protect that innovation band.

Well, I appreciate that because again, uh, our farmers out there need, uh, every benefit that they can get because uh prices haven't been the greatest in the last several years. And um uh they get, you know, when you look at the costs of farming, it's it's tough out there. So, uh my time is about ready to expire, so I'll do, Mister Chairman, I'll submit my other questions uh to our witnesses. So, thank you very much and I yield back.

Thank you. The chair now recognizes the representative of California, Mister Ruiz, for five minutes to ask your questions.

Thank you, Mister Chairman. In emergency medicine, getting to emergencies, fast to suppress fires, to address a disaster, to transport critically sick patients to emergency rooms is a matter of life or death. Whether it is a bushfire, uh near trailer parks, or a farm worker suffering heat stroke miles from the nearest paved road, first responders need to find people quickly. GPS makes all of that possible But the communities must depend on precise positioning, navigation, and timing, what we call PNT, are often the most exposed when those systems fail. Rural areas face GPS jamming and spoofing not as a distant threat, but as a practical hazard. In communities like mine, that danger is compounded by proximity to military training corridors, and a geographic reality that cannot be wished away. When GPS fails, there may not be backup technology to catch the fall. Uh, Mister Grossman, my district includes communities that are ours from the nearest major hospital with limited cellular coverage. How would a GPS outage or the jamming or spoofing of GPS signals harm rural emergency responders and can current complementary P and T technologies aid in situation like these?

Thank you for that question, Congressman Ruiz. You you've highlighted the inextricable connection between public safety and first responders and having reliable access to P and T. Uh, when hospitals are located, uh, hours away, as the example you shared, those ambulances, uh, transporting the patient, they're relying on P and T to navigate, uh, them to the closest hospital and with the quickest route. Similarly, uh, the, uh, the home base for the, uh, first responders uh use gps and pnt for tracking services to know exactly where that ambulance is uh and where to route additional emergency vehicles um i would also point out uh many of the largest public safety organizations have weighed in on today's hearing including the international association of fire chiefs the international association of chiefs of police uh for the very reason that you've described we need to have complimentary p and t solutions but we cannot do it to the detriment of many of the use cases relied on by first responders that are uh located in that lower nine hundred megahertz band.

Thank you. Uh, for tribal nations across California's desert region and the nation, the gaps in redundant communication infrastructures are real and long-standing. Emergency dispatch, search and rescue, and energy grid management on tribal lands all depend on GPS being reliable. Uh, Miss Dyer, tribal nations in my district manage their own emergency services and utility infrastructure on sovereign lands. Uh, how does the GPS community engage tribal governments in PNT resilience planning, and what barriers exist to deploying backup systems on tribal and rural lands specifically?

Thank you, Congressman, for the question. Uh, you know, the GPS community consists of a lot of folks across the federal government as well as industry. One of the uh programs that's available is, I'm sure you probably know, is the D D Department of Energy's Tribal Nation transmission program that provides advice to tribal nations as they are setting up those electrical grids. I would be curious to see if their information that they provide emphasizes the importance of a resilient backup in their uh in their electric grid capabilities. If not, that's something something certainly something of a shortfall. it is fairly standard in every electrical grid to not only rely on GPS as a source for that timing signal, but also to implement other protocols, so including one cleverly called white rabbit protocol that first gets a signal, a master a grand master clock signal from GPS, Yeah. and then it relies on ethernet inside of it to help provide a backup so that they can have that tribal nation should be able to ask a question to make sure that Thank you. that's in there.

Thank you. Uh, the Imperial and Coachella Valleys are among the most productive ag regions in the country. GPS guided precision farming is central to how our growers manage water and maximize yields under extraordinarily difficult conditions. Uh, Mister Feld, precision ag is heavily GPS dependent and rural farming operations uh have limited capacity to transition to back-up systems. What would a realistic federal framework look like to help ag and rural users integrate complimentary P and T? technologies without placing that burden entirely on small operators.

i'm gonna unfortunately have very little time and i'd love to talk to you about the tribal stuff as well but the uh the question is to what extent can we in the united states build into terrestrial uh such as the eloran system in order to publicly fund alternatives to uh terrestrial to satellite gps for those areas that desperately need it and where private uh uh systems are unlikely to deploy.

Thank you. Gentleman yields back. Uh, the chair now recognizes representative from Virginia, Mister Griffith, for five minutes to ask your questions.

Thank you very much, Mister Chairman. All right. Maybe y'all can help me figure this stuff out. Uh, Miss Dyer, can you talk about lower Earth orbit GBS systems and their differences from traditional GBS systems? And as a part of that, I'm curious, cuz of the conversation you had with uh Representative Latta a few minutes ago, I'm curious about what the Chinese three levels are and does that also include, and I assume it does, but does that include low earth orbit uh satellite?

Thank you for that question. Low earth orbit uh P and T systems in the United States are a very healthy economy actually. Iridium operates the first commercial P and T system in low earth orbit. Uh they are an incredible company and they're providing great services in in those areas. Two other companies are right behind them, two US US companies, one named Trustpoint, and it is differentiating itself in this market by transmitting its signals along C-band, as opposed to L-band where GPS is operating, and they expect to start providing services as early as twenty twenty seven. Another company is called Zona, and Zona is a uh company that is putting a signal that's very close to gps into operation so that it can be easily integrated into existing receivers and devices. So we have a very nice and healthy LEO PN T system in the commercial space. China to my knowledge has a satellite systems both in geostationary, so ones that are twenty five to thirty k above the earth,

Hmm.

as well as medium earth orbit. I am not aware of them having a very robust low earth orbit PN T

All right, so then that raises this question, which everybody else in the room might know, but I don't. Do we have Middle Earth? Are you we were middle level?

Mm-hmm.

We do, OK.

We do. That's where Geo says.

So we've got the geo that that I knew about in the in LAO, OK.

Yep, yep.

Um, do they have the same do do the low earth orbit satellites have the same vulnerabilities that the traditional satellites have?

They have a different mix of vulnerabilities. Um, one, when you're operating in low earth orbit,

alright thank you very much uh i was i was intrigued with some of the discussion uh this soran brought up about uh that they're using some more high powered uh nine hundred megahertz MLO uh things and that there was not interference. Uh, and that is that was your I understood your testimony correct, correct? There there weren't any complaints about interference. I understood that correctly, did I not?

That is correct, Congressman.

All right, so now I go to Mister Grossman, cuz I wanna get, you know, both sides of the story. Do you have any complaints or have you heard of complaints where they are using where

Yep.

they're using the higher uh power that uh people are running into problems whether it be the the medical side or something as simple as garage door openers

congressman uh yes we we have heard concerns so the uh uh tests that uh uh next tab refers to they were uh two that i'm aware of i've reviewed youtube videos that the company posted on their site showing uh what they claim to be coexistence uh with rfid tags and then another video uh which showed uh or claimed coexistence with smoke detectors and I believe one other device. Uh these were one minute long videos each, uh we have not seen any accompanying uh technical data to go along with uh those tests. We would uh our engineers of our companies would welcome to to look at that.

So you you question their testing, but I guess my question would be is have you in those areas where they were doing testing or where they've used this have you had any specific complaints?

Well, uh, as I understand the the tests occurred on the the rooftop of a building, so they they were an isolated test with specific devices. We just don't have a lot of details about uh the technical parameters by which those uh tests occurred.

And and I'm gonna probably run out of time, but is there any way to buffer uh the systems so that if you're using the higher uh powered ones the lower powered ones can be buffered from interference?

Uh, I said we're we're not aware of that, there have been countless technical tests submitted into the record.

Ms. Zorin.

Yes, uh, thank you for the opportunity to clarify. We're transmitting live, uh, what we demo is very different, we've been transmitting live in since January on five G, we've been transmitting for decades on our regular technology, and, uh, we've not had any complaints of interference in this.

Buffering, I got five seconds. Buffering?

S- uh

Is there any technology for buffering it?

The coexistence is possible today. You don't need the any technologies for buffering.

Okay. All right. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Uh, Chair now recognizes the Representative from Michigan, Representative Dingell, for five minutes to ask your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, and thank you to our witnesses for being here because this is a really important subject. Positioning, navigation and timing systems are foundational to our national security, our economic security, and critical infrastructure. GPS powers everything from aviation, emergency response to telecommunic communications, the future of transportation, and much more. And as a car girl, I really I don't think people even have maps anymore, just as a um an aside. But I am concerned. For decades the United States has led the world in GPS technology, but as GPS disruption jamming and spoofing become more common in modern conflict, we have to ensure that our systems are resilient,

Yes, please.

secure and reliable. We've already seen examples of GPS interfere interference near conflict zones in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and experts continue to warn that our adversaries are actively developing capabilities to exploit these vulnerabilities. And I've unfortunately, actually seeing some of the work. It's not only a defense issue. P and T technologies are increasingly important to the future of innovation and commerce including autonomous vehicles, connected technologies, wireless communications, and emergency response systems. We've got a lead in the deployment of resilient technologies that strengthen our national security, protect our critical infrastructure, and support economic competitiveness. It is important to understand the vulnerabilities facing our current PN T system, the role the government can play, and the private sector interface regulators can play in addressing them, and then what does Congress need to do to help ensure we remain the global leader in secure and resilient PN T technologies. So now I'm gonna uh I have a lot of questions and I'll probably do some for the uh record, but let me start with you, Mister Feld. what would be the real world consequences if the United States experienced a significant GPS disruption without sufficient backup capabilities in place, and which sectors would be the most affected?

It would be disastrous, and there would be a chain reaction because some systems have backups that will allow them to persist for some time but everything ultimately coordinates back through gps as a means of synchronizing all these systems so first you would lose for a lot of consumers the devices that they yeah uh rely upon uh then uh gradually other systems that have been uh listed such as the electrical system the yeah uh cell phone networks would drift off of their uh existing synchronicity uh so it would be bad and the longer it went on the more disastrous it would be

So, I have another question, but I'm only I you didn't answer my question about what sectors would be the most impacted.

Uh, I'm sorry, because in every locality it's going to depend a

It would be all sectors.

great deal of who has backups and what type of backups.

Okay. Alright, so I'm gonna ask you more specific. I'm gonna go to Mister Grossman, cuz I gotta get this in before I run out of time. As autonomous and connected vehicle technologies continue to advance, How important are P and T systems to the future of transportation infrastructure and vehicle safety?

Congresswoman, they are incredibly important to P and T. Uh, GPS, though, is just one of a number of of technologies that autonomous vehicles uh rely on. Uh, it includes cameras, radar, uh, li LIDAR, onboard sensors, and detailed maps, uh, all uh working together to navigate safely. Um, so GPS is an important input. uh but it is not the sole a basis for driving decisions but at the same time, absolutely everything that you said is correct uh it it is another reason why we need to support complimentary P and T solutions.

OK, I'm gonna give you more for the record, Mister Feld, can you walk us in forty seconds through the different forms of back-up P and T systems currently being developed or deployed, and how they would improve resilience if GPS is disrupted.

So, we have a couple of uh different buckets. Uh, terrestrial is one that uh uh can provide powerful signals that are more resistant to jamming, uh particularly because NIST has developed a uh synchronized timing uh standard that you can import through uh fiber, so fiber connecting to towers. That's one uh uh method. There are improved satellite uh approaches. uh especially now that we are using low earth orbit uh satellites in addition to the uh mid earth orbit uh satellites uh and then there are uh self contained awareness of uh the stuff around you um essentially overlay a map on known physical uh you know what your initial location is and then you can use technology to tell how far you've gone and uh at what speed

I'm gonna have you expand but I'm out of time so yield back Mister Chairman. i have a lot of questions

thank you those are good questions uh now recognize the representative from florida mister bilirakis for five minutes to ask your questions

thank you mr. chairman i appreciate it i've heard from countless businesses and stakeholders over the the months about the the need for a gps redundant system uh which everyone seems to agree is necessary for both safety and the most effective use of gps technology recently i've been working with a tampa based company that is developing precise positioning uh infrastructure for roads to support autonomous vehicles. Ultimately, their goal is to reduce crashes and save lives with the help of technology including GPS systems. We must ensure that the potential of these public safety initiatives are are top of mind as we investigate policy changes. My first question is for Mister Grossman. how can we make sure resilient and complementary P and T are integrated into autonomous systems?

Congressman, uh, that is a uh a great question and, you know, as I I spoke about in our testimony, uh, it is critical when we're evaluating these complimentary P and T solutions, uh, that there is no one size fits all approach. Each use case is going to have different requirements. The uh example you referred to of the company in your district i'm i'm not personally familiar with them but it is it sounds like uh one of the many examples available there um that particular technology sounds like it's focused uh for autonomous vehicles and transportation and that's very exciting uh but there are other complimentary solutions that are gonna be better suited for the military others that might be better for agriculture uh and yet others uh that are gonna be best for aviation or for critical infrastructure sectors. So, uh, that would be the criterion which we would recommend, uh, the Congress and you evaluate. But again, it's important that the uh, that you don't mandate any one specific technology.

Thank you. Before the FCC reconfigures a ban under any FCC application, which should, uh, we should understand its necessity, obviously. Uh, Mr. Matheny, uh, is the broadcast positioning system proof that we can build resilience on spectrum already allocated?

Commerce and build records, uh, yes, it is. Uh, I think that, um, we have existing licensed spectrum, it's clean, it's clear, and this is a new application that can ride right on top of that spectrum as we deploy the next generation broadcast standard. It's also running on top of very resilient um, infrastructure uh that broadcasts at a high power and covers large geographies, and stays online uh during times of uh challenging weather and other events.

Alright, thank you. Uh, next question for you uh, Mr. Matheny. With hurricane season starting, and it it has started, can you discuss the existing resilience for AM radio and how the broadcast positioning system plays?

uh ag- again i do believe that broadcast infrastructure has shown over the years that it is uh some of the most resilient infrastructure out there it stays on the air providing vital information to people in their times of need and uh it also serves as the backbone of the emergency alert system so it is already set up to be there in those times of uh disaster and what we're able to do with bps is to not just to provide information to uh people, but also to provide time to critical infrastructure so that they can stay operational as well to keep those cell cell towers up and operational, to keep those power substations uh providing energy, uh to help deploy uh the teams to repair uh power lines more quickly. So there's a very uh significant role that BPS can play uh as it relates to those types of weather emergencies.

All right, very good. I appreciate it very much. I'll I'll go ahead and yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Appreciate that. Uh, chair now recognizes the representatives from California, Mister Peters, for your five minutes for your question.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for uh calling this hearing. Uh, position navigation and timing, or PNT technology, is critical to our way of life, has has been discussed by you all. It allows easy access to real-time location data, helping not only to operate our vehicles and find our way, but also to help rate help operate critical national defense systems, uh currently rely on GPS uh to provide PNC information to our devices via satellite. Since it was launched in the nineteen seventies, the Department of Defense has secured, maintained and operated GPS with assistance from the Department of Transportation. Um, we don't have GPS redundancy technologies in place, and so foreign adversaries are increasingly or we have a increasing concern about uh interference with um gps for interfering or or spoofing with the signal miss dyer can you tell us how america is particularly at risk for foreign interference with our gps system currently and whether europe is experiencing similar attacks on their galileo p n t system

yes thank you for the question congressman american companies are impacted by the jamming and spoofing that's taking place in europe which is occurring not only in uh conflict zones but outside of conflict zones and their governments have spoken up about that. American companies, whether they're maritime or aviation companies, who are flying passengers into areas where that jamming and spoofing is being impacted, are being affected, their aircraft are being affected, they're needing to reach out to air traffic control to let them know that they've been jammed and spoofed, and that causes problems for them. Uh, sometimes the the they're it requires a hard reset and in some cases some of the receivers and devices have to be taken out and and recalibrated. The good news is our pilots are well trained to respond in those scenarios, but it is an impact on those um on those on those different forms of transportations, which Americans and the American economy relies on tremendously. That jamming and spoofing is impacting not only Europe's uh Galileo system, it's impacting China's Baidu and Russia's Glonass system.

Right.

their equivalence to GPS.

Maybe on that topic, Mister Grossman, what types of complementary PNT uh technologies are Europe and other countries examining that would improve resiliency and protect their nation from foreign adversaries and what might we learn here for this committee from those efforts?

Thank you for that question, Congressman. Um, I'll give two examples that I'm familiar with. Uh, one, and I believe Miss Dyer spoke about it earlier, is Iridium's uh lower Earth orbit satellite. uh network i believe it's called stl uh which has been widely used in europe and uh and elsewhere in the world for critical infrastructure uh and i believe even the european commission themselves uh use that as a complimentary pnt solution uh while not europe uh another example is south korea uh they're using a terrestrial system called uh iloran uh as a complement uh so to your question about what are some of the possible solutions i Both of those are examples. We are technology neutral as a as an association. We're not endorsing any of one of them, uh, but I do think they pose they present good examples of technologies that we should look at uh when exploring complementary P and T.

Good, that's good to know. Um, I know we're not here to talk about merits of specific solutions, but I know that there's a con concern about the reconfiguration potentially of the lower nine hundred megahertz band. the spectrum that electric gas and water utilities rely on every day to deliver utilities to our communities and support grid reliability uh and whether that could disrupt critical energy infrastructure um we know that um wireless sensors monitor equipment on that band uh help manage us manage energy use enable utilities to remotely monitor and manage critical infrastructures and that the systems improve efficiency support conservation efforts and enhance

Congressman, you raise an important point. Congressman, you raise an important point. We can't lose sight of the consumer here, We can't. and and you highlighted many of the examples of how the utility uh sector uh could be impacted. We don't believe that it's a choice. this subcommittee and Congress has to make between uh promoting GPS resilience and protecting the lower nine hundred megahertz band, there are numerous options for complimentary P and T uh that don't pose those forms of interference to those critical uh utility services that you've referenced.

OK, well I'm I hope we pursue that. I hope we're that the FCC is able to balance these priorities uh to, you know, give consideration to national security operational security here in uh onshore uh and cost. And, uh, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.

Thank you very much, gentlemen. This time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from George's first district for five minutes for questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank all of you for being here. This is obviously a very important subject matter that uh we need to be paying particular attention to, for a number of different reasons, not the least of which is our national security. We all understand that. Um, Positioning, navigation, and timing, it it it's more, as I say, than just a technical issue. It is an issue about uh about national security and about our financial systems, uh everything, you name it, electrical grid, agricultural ports, emergency response, it it touches all fa- facets of uh of our society and of our lives. So, it's uh it's you know, we we've gotta make sure that the the jamming, that the uh the spoofing the cyber threats and and the the growing concerns of adversaries and the capabilities of adversaries like China and Russia are are under control, and that's that's extremely important. That's why I believe that we need a layered approach. We need uh to modernize GPS, we need to protect it from interference, we need to examine complementary technologies, including terrestrial systems and broadcast positioning systems, without prematurely picking winners or forcing consumers into a rush transition. Miss Dyer, I wanna ask you, um, from a national security perspective, what is the most urgent, tell me what the most urgent P and T vulnerability Congress should be focused on right now is, um, what what might it be?

Thank you, Congressman, for the question. I believe addressing the jamming and spoofing issue is is an important element. One element of that is enforcing existing laws that Congress put in place to prevent harmful interference to authorized radio communications. The FCC could use additional resources to focus on that. When a j- a jammer was inadvertently transmitting near i- in Westminster, Colorado, it took the FCC and the FBI seven days to locate this jammer. It should not take them that long to down that type of jamming activity. The other one that I think is seven days, yes.

Seven days?

Gosh.

The other, it's

Imagine the the damage that could be done during that period of time.

Absolutely, absolutely. I would also say that there are uh Congress could also have an opportunity to review the inter-agency processes that the executive branch agencies have in the counter UAS and UAS technologies. to make sure that any sort of different technologies that are being used to counter UAS's, there's a really robust process so that it does not interfere with all of the various services that we rely on using GPS and the other complimentary PNT systems that are already in place and operating with. Those are two areas where I think those would be my top two areas for Congress to focus on.

Great, great, thank you. Mister Matheny, let me ask you, how could ATSC three

Thank you, Congressman. Uh, BPS can be there as a terrestrial solution. One of the things we've spent a lot of time talking about is different space-based solutions, but we can't really solve a problem in space by putting more stuff in space. We believe that there needs to be a terrestrial solution And our idea is that BPS be the primary terrestrial solution. And that's because we operate uh on resilient infrastructure with high power signals that can cover uh the full continental US. Uh, and and and provide an alternative uh or backup uh to GPS such that uh there is a signal always available if uh GPS becomes compromised.

Well, in in your testimony you mentioned that BPS is covering approximately seventy-five

So, yes, ATSC-three stations are uh uh now on the air reaching uh over seventy-five percent of the US population. BPS can uh be that layer. We want to be the primary terrestrial layer and we believe that we can provide signals to other layers of uh of a layered approach system. But we want to be the foundational one, and we believe that we're well positioned to do that because of our existing infrastructure, because it's high power, because it has such great coverage. So, uh, that's that's really our goal.

If you were to do this, what what kind of time frame are you talking about? How how soon could you implement that?

So right now we're on the air in three markets, uh, and we're covering over a hundred and fifty thousand square kilometers, uh, today with BPS, uh, signals. Um, we have, again, those, uh, eighty markets.

Great. Thank you all very much. This is extremely important and we appreciate you all being here today. And I yield back.

Thank you much. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the general lady from Virginia for five minutes for questions.

Thank you, Mister Chair, and ranking member Matsui for holding this hearing and to our witnesses. Uh, as the Congresswoman from Virginia's fourth district, I have to acknowledge we wouldn't be having this hearing without the pioneering work of hidden figure mathematician Virginia State University alumna and Dinwiddie native Doctor Gladys West who passed away earlier this year. Her mathematical models for the earth's shape and gravity laid the foundational framework allowing satellites to capture and calculate position, navigation and timing data with extreme accuracy. So I think we all owe uh this hidden figure our gratitude. And today is the only publicly available civilian positioning navigation and timing solution. GPS not only provides directions and an ETA for drivers, but as we've heard is essential to operating and supporting critical infrastructure, uh financial transaction authentications, air traffic control, communications network, precision agriculture, the electric grid, it literally uh underpins all modern technology. And as that to- technology has advanced, so too have malign actors' tactics to disrupt, jam, and spoof GPS signals, underscoring the need for a more resilient and redundant P and T capability. And while I appreciate the steps the federal government has taken to c- bolster competition in this space, which will lead to more resilient, accessible, and affordable solutions that strengthen customer protection and national security, We must ensure that the FCC, under Chairman Carr's leadership, upholds the public interest as mandated by Congress in evaluating any complements to GPS and given the high stakes any evaluation of P and T backups must be done in a transparent technically sound and fair manner. So, Mister Field Feld, sorry, first responders, as we've heard, need more accurate, resilient, and secure alternatives to GPS. So what specifically should the FCC consider during its review of alternative P and T solutions to ensure first responders can locate assess and respond more quickly in emergency situations?

I would say the FCC needs to consider the following factors. One, existence in the market plates and speed of deployment. Is this something that's here today or is this something that's gonna take a while to actually develop standards for and deploy somehow? Two, Is the issue here, uh, that of public safety navigating to places, or is this finding the individuals who are in danger? These require separate solutions. The FCC is primarily focused on one in its, uh, next generation nine one one proceeding, but we must give consideration to how public safety can navigate, uh, successfully, and rely on PNT. Three, frequency, yeah, operation and how it interacts with existing uh uh deployment uh particularly if there is not sufficient deployment in an area for a terrestrial solution it's not gonna work if you're in high uh dense forest area satellite uh may not work uh these are factors that the FCC needs to consider it needs to make sure that any approved pnts meet the the appropriate standards and it needs to make sure that p n t systems disclose where they do not operate and what their weaknesses are

ok and uh miss dyer and mr. grossman um as threats to the g p s system continue to evolve uh ensuring resilience and uh cannot be solely a government responsibility but requires meaningful private sector investment and coordination and you may need to provide uh fuller answers on the record but can you discuss the investments the industry has already made to harden GPS and related P and T systems against growing cyber security threats and specifically where you've seen the greatest progress, uh in areas such as signal authentication, redundancy, anti-jamming, uh and where are there still gaps?

Yes, thank you for that question. I I think some of the many device and receiver manufacturers in the United States are very aware and very concerned about the cyber security vulnerabilities of their receivers and devices and have taken extraordinary steps to really reinforce their capabilities so that they are not vulnerable they regularly issue patches to make sure that their systems are up to date they are also integrating integrity monitoring types of capabilities to detect when uh a different uh signal's coming in and when that signal looks bad they also pull in a number of excuse me, a number of different uh signals from different complementary P and T systems to also help them discern when a signal doesn't look like it's working well. Sometimes it's just a malfunction of whatever system the signal's coming from. Sometimes it's nefarious, sometimes it's not nefarious. But the more signals you have, the more availability you have to figure out when something's going wrong and discard those signals so that it doesn't affect the user.

OK, unfortunately my time is up. the rest of you wanna answer on the record. I appreciate it and I yield back.

Thanks. Thank you very much. The general meeting's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Flor- uh, from the seventh district from South Carolina for five minutes.

Thank you, uh, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for for being here today. PNT is, uh, hugely important issue, but one that maybe most Americans don't understand, um, comprehend, but it's integrated in our daily lives in such a a robust way, and that's why I think why this im- this hearing is incredibly important. GPS remains one of America's greatest technological achievements. Uh, we also know that our adversaries obviously are investing heavily in counter space capabilities jamming spoofing and alternative P and T systems of their own and so we cannot afford to fall behind uh at the same time, I think Congress has an obligation to be careful. We should support a more resilient layered P and T architecture. Uh, but we n- don't necessarily need to pick winners and losers, disrupt existing technologies or impose new costs on consumers, businesses, utilities, and the constituents that we represent. Um, Miss Dyer, your testimony notes that a robust commercial P and T industry already exists, and that multiple complementary systems are either operational or being developed, uh, including space-based and terrestrial. Uh, from your perspective, what is the most important thing Congress can do to support the development and adoption of P and T alternatives without undermining GPS or creating a one size fits all mandate.

There have been an uh a few uh activities that Congress has already done. There is a a they have provided funding to an organization in Los Angeles, California at a Space Force base called Spaceworks. And Spaceworks has provided seed funding to a number of different technologies in in what they're calling an Alt PNT challenge. So they're helping some of these small businesses, these innovative groups, to really start to develop and enhance their existing work so that they can try to bring new technologies forward to us. I think there's also a lot that can be done, uh, as I mentioned earlier about enforcement of existing laws. The interference with GPS and other, uh, radio communications authorized by the FCC is illegal, and so making sure that the FCC has enough resources to uh to address the bad actors that are causing these problems, is an inviolably important role that Congress can play here.

Thank you for that. Miss Miss Sorens, um my understanding is that Next Nav currently has a pending petition before the FCC, um seeking a rulemaking on the lower nine hundred um MH MHC ban. Is that correct?

Thank you Congressman. Uh, it is correct. And I wanted to just point out because it

What is the, just curious, what is the reasoning behind uh the petition and why next nav is asking uh the fcc for that specific band

um i appreciate the question and the opportunity to tell you we have licenses currently in the no lower nine hundred megahertz band so we are an existing licensee and we're asking for modernization of those rules something the fcc does all the time where they have two sides they listen to multiple sides and have shown over decades that they make the right decision. I wanted also acknowledge your your actually uh what you mentioned about national security uh which is where I would like to point out to you Admiral Mike Rogers former NSA director and head of cyber command summed it up really well saying US needs a ground-based backup that leverages existing infrastructure to provide the speed and scale the problem requires.

And and maybe we do I and forgive my ignorance I'm just trying to make sure that I understand this because I think um the sheer amount of opposition that you have is is alarming. You know you walk we walk into this hearing and there's a ton of organizations, entities, everything from utilities to small companies um that that say that this is too much. Um and uh so so why is it that carving this lane out of exclusivity would be appropriate um and that the these these other companies uh or these other uh utilities if you will and and and um uh are wrong why are they wrong

Congressman uh sometimes when you ask for change people don't like change and but that is why we have a process FCC has solved many more complex problems

but isn't there a less I mean so like alright so I'm a layman here this is not my field of expertise but if I am a road and I'm uh say the south corner department of transportation I've got a few options, right? I can plow through somebody's neighborhood, or I can go around it. So why could we not do something else that's less disruptive?

We could have everyone coexist with their very important operations. You do not have to choose between them. That's why the FCC will make sure not only we have solid multi-layer PNT resiliences, but these other very important operations continue to coexist. We must trust our engineers and staff. they will be able to figure it out. They have done it for decades over a much more complex, much higher level opposition than what we have faced. I fully trust their process and I

Well, I look I look forward to learning more because it um obviously we've we're running out of time but would certainly welcome the opportunity to speak with you about how that would we could do that. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

I yield back.

Thank you very much. Gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from New Jersey's eighth district. Five minutes for questions.

Thank you, Chairman. GPS underpins almost all the critical systems we use to keep our community safe, connected and moving. New Jersey's eighth eighth district, this is mission critical. Our district includes Newark Airport, NJ Transit, Path, Ports, and major highways, tunnels and bridges. Families and businesses rely on this infrastructure every day, and it all requires a secure, reliable GPS system to function. That is why resilient and reliable PNT alternatives to GPS are so important. Any GPS disruption could threaten safety, slow commerce, and raise costs for American families. Communities like ours can't afford a single point of failure for systems that protect lives and move goods and keep essential services running. Mister Feld, just briefly, what risks do districts like ours face if GPS is disrupted? And why are backup GPS capabilities so important for supporting transportation emergency response and communication systems?

Critical functions at the consumer level, everybody driving around using their apps, to banking and electricity would be disrupted, this makes the need for backup systems critical as well.

Appreciate that. Investing in resilient PNT is critical, but as we explore viable GPS backups, we must ensure we are not solving one problem while creating new ones for the essential services our constituents rely on. That is especially true for systems operating in the lower nine hundred megahertz band including tolling technologies used across the country. In New Jersey, tolling revenue supports the infrastructure

Congressman, uh, it would be devastating. Congressman, uh, it would be devastating. uh, I've seen estimates anywhere from at least uh five billion to seven point two billion, uh, dollars uh to RFID systems that are utilized uh throughout ports uh and throughout the logistics process.

Appreciate that. Mister Feld, as the government considers alternatives to GPS, how should policymakers ensure that efforts to enhance PNT resiliency also serve the public interest by protecting critical systems Americans rely on?

As an initial matter, we need to preserve rules that next-nav has asked to have eliminated which prohibit interference with these unlicensed devices in the lower seven hundred and require them to demonstrate before turning on uh their system that it will not create unacceptable levels of interference this is not a modernization of rules, this is a land grab and we must prevent it.

Can you just speak more about the land grab concept? Critique I should say.

Briefly.

Mr. Feld,

I'm sorry?

can you speak more about the land grab critique briefly?

Yes. First, they want vastly increased spectrum access rights that would be valued at billions of dollars if they needed to buy it at auction. They do not offer any public interest uh obligations in exchange. I don't require that we get paid in cash, but we should get something back for use of the public airwaves. Second, they are required right now by rules not to that devices that meet safe harbors are not considered points of interference with their licensed service, they are structured to operate at low power, they are not allowed to activate a system.

Right. Thank you.

So.

I appreciate it. I wish I had more time. Ms. Aron, has Nextnabs' current core portfolio of assets changed significantly since November twenty twenty four just yes or no?

Um.

i'm sorry can you repeat that please

your core portfolio of assets has it changed significantly since november twenty twenty four just yes or no it's the same has it has your uh portfolio of assets changed

uh we have acquired more spectrum uh through secondary auction uh i'm sorry secondary markets our existing spectrum was through existing licenses and we acquired more spectrum through secondary markets

but generally the same pool of assets since uh november twenty twenty four because prior i ask because prior to trump's election november twenty twenty four Nextnav stock was trading well below its current fifty-two week low. But in the lead up to the election and after, Nextnav stock saw a significant jump. Brendan Carr in Project twenty twenty five discusses the importance of FCC taking a more aggressive approach to GPS resilience and now Carr is in a position to pick winners and losers through petitions at the FCC. And despite concerns from all of the other witnesses here today and several members of Congress regarding Nextnav's pending proposal before the FCC Nextnav stock is currently trading near its

Uh, Congressman Nexnev has put a vision forward three years ago. And that vision is a solid P and T backup and compliment to GPS. Our path and mission is very clear to the market,

But three years ago,

and I'm happy that

three years ago the stock was trading in a fundamentally different place, about a third of the current value that it's currently trading at. So it seems that there's different market sentiment than three years ago and I think it's in connection with Brendan Carr now being the chair of the FCC.

The gentleman's the gentleman's time has expired and yields back.

With that, I yield back.

The chair now recognizes the general lady from Indiana's ninth district for five minutes for questions.

Thank you, uh, Mister Chairman, um, and thank you to the witnesses. Uh, GPS is one of the great American success stories. It is the invisible infrastructure. Underneath our entire economy, the financial transit. transactions that clear every morning, the air traffic control that keeps us safe, moving millions of packages every day, and the precision agriculture that helps farmers keep up with increasing demand. Um, I also remember a time before GPS and, um, the the amount of, um, uh, improvement to daily life that it provides is substantial. Uh, but the last piece about precision agriculture is personal for me back in the Indiana State Senate, I worked to get broadband access to the unserved corners of the state of Indiana, and I'm still working on that today. I appreciate the support for the Data Bridge Act, Miss Dyer. And as I've worked to connect rural Indiana, one thing that has become impossible to miss is that the same farmers we're trying to get online are already completely dependent upon GPS and right now that signal has no back-up. As GPS outages costs our economy more than a billion dollars a day, a thirty day disruption during planting season could run past forty five billion dollars. This is at risk every day that we continue to rely on this single point. Now, I do want us to be clear-eyed about the right way to address it. The federal government's record on building big, complicated technology programs on time and on budget does not inspire a lot of confidence. The good news is that the private sector is not standing still. American companies are already fielding complimentary position, navigation, and timing systems in low earth orbit over broadcast infrastructure and across five G networks. So the question for Congress is not which company wins, how do we get out of the way and let companies compete, and make sure we enforce rules that are already present. Uh, my first question is for Mr. Matheny, what are the risks if the United States does not diversify beyond GPS?

Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. Um, the risks are severe, and they touch everything from our energy grid to our cellular communications to data centers, uh, but also first responders and, uh, as you mentioned, our agriculture. Uh, in two thousand twenty-four there was a solar storm. Lots of people took lots of pictures of the beautiful Aurora Borealis. But what, uh, got less attention was the fact that there was a edict that was put out that said, hey, let's put a pause on planting right now. And so planting was paused for two to three days because there was concern about the ability for precision agriculture.

Yeah.

And so with BPS uh as an alternative system, you would have the ability to uh withstand something like that in the future.

Thank you. And, Mister Grossman, you made a point that DOT has studied this issue for years, and concluded there is no single system that meets every need. Um, could you walk us through the tradeoffs that Congress should consider before favor favoring any one technology or spectrum approach over others?

Thank you for that question, Congresswoman. You really have to look at it on a per use case basis. So, uh, whether you're talking about the aviation industry and what they need for complimentary P and T is going to be different than what the agriculture community and farmers need uh just as it'll be different for uh uh critical infrastructure providers like uh the electric grid and uh wireless networks so uh that would be my recommendation for how um the congress should approach it.

thank you i mentioned in my opening that farmers were working to connect with broadband are at the same time some of the most gps dependent uh users in the country, they also happen to be the furthest from the dense terrestrial infrastructure many of these complimentary systems rely on, Miss Dyer, which complimentary P and T technologies can realistically reach these rural areas? What can Congress do to help bring those solutions along?

Absolutely. The best uh examples that I can think of are in space, and that would be three companies, they're small businesses, Iridium, Zona and Trustpoint, that are developing their systems right now. That's the advantage of space, it can reach those rural areas and get them what they need. There's a lot of great work that's going on there and encouraging their work. is a it would be really valuable.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, this is one of those issues that doesn't make headlines until it fails. Um, o- on that day it's gonna be too late for us to start, so we have built an economy, a transportation system, our national defense, that all lean on this single signal with no back-up. Uh, the good news is that American innovators and companies are ready to step up if we give them room to compete. I wanna make sure that we do that before a crisis forces our hand. I wanna thank the witnesses for your input and I yield back.

Well, thank you very much. John O'Reilly yields back the balance for your time. And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio's first district, with five minutes for questions.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chair. Thank you all for being here. And um And, you know, answering questions for us. This is obviously hugely important. I'm a big movie guy and I there's so many movies that where the in the plot really is something apocalyptic happens because of a data hack, right? There's the there's the genre of movies where it's like, you know, some sort of virus and that kind of thing, but the data hacks are the ones that's terrify me. I mean, I s- still watch them. They're so good, but they, you know, the the the one I was uh thinking about the other day was the Leave the World Behind. It's a Julia Rowe, yeah, it's a good one. Do you know they're not making a second one? I thought they were gonna make a second one. Anyways, point is there's this catastrophic cyber attack. And there's a scene, it's not funny, cuz there's a scene where all the cars are just like heading in one direction. And then they keep crashing into each other. And you realize very quickly this could happen. Right? So and and because we're all so online and we're plugged in and we got all the technology, And so it's not so far-fetched that these these events could take place and that's why we're having hearings like this, that's why we invest in the redundancy and so on and so forth. So, uh, I wanna ask Miss Dyer and then, uh, Matheny, what you know, how how important is the redundancy piece here and these investments? I mean, how, you know, how would you describe the importance of getting this this right.

I don't think I can understate the importance of getting this right. I think there's a lot that GPS offers. It's a a single system serves military, civil, commercial, and scientific users. What a tremendous investment in the US Congress to doing that.

And the redundancy of having layer upon layer, I I can't imagine the American people saying there's too much redundancy. Right, you know, on on these things.

And I think that's where the the commercial market has really stepped up and said I see an opportunity here.

Yeah.

They we are lacking that redundancy and we're here and we can provide some really tremendous op uh opportunities and there's a lot of great space-based alternatives out there.

Thank you.

And I would add to that that um we really do need a terrestrial component to it, and that's gonna be very important because when you talk about layers upon layers upon layers, Um, you know, we need a terrestrial component because it provides uh a uh very reliable, uh high power signal that can deliver uh the timing that is is needed because those cyber security issues you've got authentications, you've got encryption protocols, you've got um all sorts of time synchronization servers, routers, cloud systems that need um precision time to operate. And so with BPS we can offer a reliable signal.

And the ch- the challenge as I understand it, is, you know, it could interfere, these things can interfere with all kinds of different aspects of our lives as we're adding more and more. And the and the next nav piece is, you know, that's the big question. But the answer is that we do have this, you know, the the FCC comes in and they can look at all of it and say, you know, there's no interference here, there's some interference here, and then we problem solve that interference. Is that a fair assessment? Mr. Rahn.

Um, that is a very fair assessment, Congressman, and I just wanted to highlight as a company with twenty years of PNT experience, I'd love to have also an opportunity to talk about that. We are currently operational, only commercial provider,

Yeah.

sitting here today and also future expansion, and absolutely we should trust the FCC process for any other concerns.

So, Mr. Field, Mr. Grossman, you agree like this is this is something the FCC could do, that when we find interference we work it, we solve the problem, and that we sort of all work together to try to solve this.

I've been in a lot of spectrum fights in the last twenty something years. Um, I've never seen anything like this. Uh, this is a fundamental restructuring uh of the service. These are ten pages of modifications to the actual functioning of the rules. That's not an interference question. a structural rule question. Uh, what we're talking about is, uh, extraordinary. Um, I am usually a big proponent and last time, uh, their their previous company, Progeny, came in looking for a waiver, I was sympathetic. Cuz the question was how do you get out of testing hell to get everybody satisfied, but not this time.

Got it. Mister Grossman, I gotta get your opinion. I I I I ran out of time. I'm so sorry.

I I agree with the comments, Mister Feldman.

Thank you all very much. Okay, got it. Thank you.

Thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired and he goes back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida's ninth district. Oh.

Oh, that's right.

Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I didn't see the general lady come in. The chair now recognizes the the at-large member, the general lady of North Dakota, for five minutes for questions.

Sorry. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here and, uh, focusing on such an important, uh, discussion today. Um, and it's such an important issue. I'm curious uh to address some things that I feel like, at least in the time that I've been able to hear, be here, I wasn't able to uh hear a lot about, uh or enough discussion uh compared to what I think we should be in terms of exploring all available options. So as it relates to the um some of the uh technology that you have uh mister matheny uh could you speak a little bit about the timeline to bring that your uh technology would face to bring to um public availability some of the benefits of it and if it it it has some of the same conflicts uh out there with other technologies or other existing applications how how you might um address those

thank you so much congresswoman We are on the air today with BPS in three markets. Uh, ATSC-three is uh, uh, live in eighty markets, uh, reaching over seventy-five percent of the US population. We believe we can have those online uh, within a year and uh, then ATSC um, three, BPS can be deployed as part of a standard ATSC-three deployment going forward, bringing us to nationwide coverage. Um, I think that one of the real benefits of uh atsc three and and the broadcast infrastructure is uh the fact that it can reach every corner of the country and it provides a um uh a really reliable signal coming from a high powered um uh broadcast uh from from tall towers and so uh with um with that type of signal uh you're you're gonna be able to um really service many different sectors of critical infrastructure, whether it's energy or um uh cellular or the financial as well as the um data centers.

Sure.

Are there commercially available receivers capable of using BPS today or would new hardware be required?

Uh, yes, we have um uh a variety of different receivers that are available today. They range from uh single channel uh small field mount receivers to rack mounted receivers, that would go in uh to uh critical infrastructure facilities we even have uh four channel receivers that can receive multiple channels and and do uh time combination and and positioning.

And what would be required for BPS capability to be incorporated into like smartphones, vehicles, ag equipment, critical infrastructure systems?

Yeah so uh I think really what's that's the long arc of innovation that we really want to work on right now we're very focused on on providing uh the uh timing to lifeline critical infrastructure sectors but um with further uh work and effort we believe we can get all the way into all of those things that you mentioned, cars, phones, drones, et cetera.

So realistically what kind of a time line are we looking at?

Uh I think the time line for the deployment on um uh BPS is gonna be really in phases, so phase one would uh be in the next year we could deploy with the existing ATSC three stations. uh after that the phase would be in alignment with the rollout and that's the important work that is happening at the fcc and we're delighted with the progress that they're making

ok then i'm from north kota very rural state talk about the coverage you have in rural parts of the country

yeah we believe that that coverage is really one of our greatest strengths and and it is that uh we can uh use this existing infrastructure the high power signals coming off of uh very tall towers uh to to reach uh full colonists including continental US, including out in to international waters. I would give an example, the station that we're working with at NIST in Denver, uh that one tower covers seventy-five over seventy-five thousand square kilometers and reaches into three states. Uh here in DC and Baltimore we have a two uh tower system that is reaching uh uh close to eighty-two thousand square kilometers of coverage.

Alright, wow. Um, what are the vulnerabilities of BPS versus GPS?

So, one of the great strengths of uh of that we have is we're we're working on existing license spectrum. And so what that means is that we have a very clean uh ability to transmit, there is gonna be no interference, we're not gonna be uh uh having uh challenges in that regard. And so Um, uh, I think that that puts us in a very, uh, good position, uh, as opposed to GPS which is, operates on a very narrow band and when it reaches earth is, is a, a weak signal.

OK, very good. Thank you, sir. My time's up, uh, but I would offer that I have a few more questions that we'd like to submit, uh, for all of yours, uh, response. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, General Leidy yields back, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida's ninth district, with five minutes for questions.

Thank you, Chairman. The spectrum known as nine hundred megahertz band has been used in our daily lives for quite a while. And we see it throughout central Florida, uh, aviation and places like Orlando International Airport to track customer baggage and inventory in the huge amount of retail opportunities in central Florida. Those of you who've been on vacation there, uh, know to prevent theft and track inventory for our utilities, uh, with smart meters which, uh, Uh, especially during the summertime, people are very interested in energy efficiency. Uh, for our agriculture, our ranches and our our orange groves. Um, for total collection like sun pass, although many fleuridins wouldn't be sad if that wasn't charged all the time. Uh, rail operations, defense in our aerospace industry, public safety, military, you name it, uh, they're using the nine hundred megahertz uh, band. Uh, you know, I recognize GPS has its vulnerabilities. We've heard it already multiple times. jamming spoofing uh especially right now we're seeing it in the middle east and areas near um europe uh and so having gps alternative proposals are important uh but they need to be thoroughly vetted and so this is an important discussion here today uh we have to protect existing uses though so very important that that's where we start from and if we could effectively do that then um then we can consider some of this sharing um and this committee is critical in the oversight as the FCC reviews this technology, we've seen a lot of political decisions at the FCC lately, uh and uh and so we need to make sure that that is not uh permeating into some of the staff decisions that uh that I know are gonna be important to this um you know we've talked about redundancy, about layering, it it'd be great to hear from you all. Uh we'll start with uh Mister Feld, what do you think your ideal redu redundancy mix is for navigation?

well i think it uh needs some of all because we can't deal with maritime and other uh issues that are not uh part of the uh terrestrial united states without satellite we just can't um but satellite will face its own uh set of restrictions uh we're gonna need uh terrestrial uh i think that there are a lot of good uh uh options out there and i think that uh frankly i think ai is gonna help us out uh uh quite a bit on a number of these things as it is capable of recognizing the patterns and uh actually geographically locating is based on immediate feedback of the area.

thank you mister filled miss dyer uh you know it was just mentioned about space base we launched those rockets in central florida at the what is your ideal redundancy mix for navigation

Thank you for the question. I think that one uh modernizing GPS is my number one priority. I think that's uh should also be the nation's number one priority because of all of the various uh contributions that we've outlaid today.

Well let's say we do that. What else would be added to the mix if we had to create these redundancies?

It to re to GPS I would add the low earth orbit satellites. because they can provide that global coverage in a way that terrestrial does not. There are a number of terrific terrestrial systems that are already operating. There is internet-assisted uh smartphones that are using uh hang-over information that allows it to stick with the phone, even if GPS were to go over. They can hold for about seven days' worth of information.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. R. Cuz my time is limited. Mister Matheny, what do you think your ideal mix would be?

So I think uh first and foremost GPS is a wonderful technology and I think that um, I agree that Leo could be a nice complement, but I'm really focused on the terrestrial solution and I believe that we need uh, at least two terrestrial solutions and and that BPS can be the primary terrestrial solution given its coverage and given its performance. Again, uh, our National Institute of Standards in Technology, part of the Department of Commerce, has said that BPS is comparable to or better than gps and that's what we want to bring to market.

thank you mr. matheson mr. grossman what would be your ideal mix?

uh congressman it would be a combination of technologies similar to what mister feld said a combination of terrestrial and satellite based solutions, do you think two key questions to ask uh as you're evaluating are there receivers readily available uh to uh utilize that service, uh if there are not that's a process that could take a couple years The second uh factor I would say is, is that technology going to cause harmful interference to other users? We believe that uh you can choose options that you uh that meet both of those tests.

Thanks. And, Mister Rod, I assume adding your technology to the mix is your suggestion, right?

Uh, thank you, Congressman.

Oh, oh, I'm sorry, the uh gentleman's time has expired, so if you'd like to submit that in writing, that'd be great. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from California's Twenty third district, five minutes for questions.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much to our witnesses. I find this to be a critically important topic. I think it's become abundantly clear that we need to develop and support a reliable alternative solution to GPS, given some of the limitations that we face. Um, and I don't think that most Americans realize just how important GPS is to their daily lives, and how important it is to our economy. And I will give you an for my own personal life. Uh recreationally I'm a pilot, uh I still like to fly, and the aircraft that I fly n- relies on GPS not only for just navigation, but also to error correct what we call the AHARS, the attitude and heading reference system. So if you experience a GPS outage, and I have when flying, uh after a few minutes you will lose not only your position, but also your d- the your knowledge of your direction, and even your knowledge of what direction is up if you can't see. So it it it's it's really uh a scary situation uh when that happens. So uh that's the lens that I look at this through. Uh so I've you've presented some very uh interesting uh and compelling different approaches uh and I'd like to talk to you about them. Uh, mister Mahaney, uh one of the concerns that I have about BPS is uh is is looking at through the aviation lens. And I mean, I'll give you an example. One route that I fly is DC down to Florida. Quite often I'll get an offshore routing, which I like because it gets me away from the congested routes over the the Northeast. But it's not uncommon to be fifty miles offshore. And my understanding is that ATSC three point O only has a range of about like thirty five to eighty miles. And uh, you would need obviously to be able to receive multiple uh, signals from multiple transmitters to triangulate. In fact, I think you'd need a under your BPS's technical specifications you'd need at least four. And I don't see any way that you'd get that fifty miles off shore. D- is is that a use that's it just BPS just couldn't be uh utilized for?

So uh I too am a pilot and I too have lost um uh GPS coverage and been told I was forty miles away from where I actually was. So I can appreciate uh your uh concern. Uh so uh with uh with our first application is really providing time to critical infrastructure. Um, and so that is really where we're for- focused first and foremost. Looking longer range, we do absolutely s- uh, have propagation maps that show that, uh, our signals, uh, do, uh, extend out, uh, probably a hundred miles, uh, into, uh, international waters. And so, uh, given if you're flying the - the coastline, you should be able to receive a - a - a - a - a number of different signals, uh, to be able to um uh potentially you know uh apply in that sort of circumstance. That is work that still has to be done though, that is is definitely work that has to be done, but uh aeroplanes use uh VHF uh radios and and we operate in the VHF and UHF bands, and so these are uh things where we are uh already having conversations uh with folks that were uh involved in divide uh designing the wide area augmentation system or what else.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, Mr. Rund, I had a similar concern about next nav, I mean, relying as it does on five G, uh, I think the range is eva- the range concerns are even exacerbated because even low-band five G signals uh might peter out after ten miles or so and a modern aircraft can fly above forty thousand feet that's seven miles up, so you'd have to be almost straight over an antenna to be able to get a location signal. Or am I looking at that the wrong way?

Congressman, uh, you're absolutely right. First of all, let me just talk about the fact that five G networks are very dense, we do not have a multilateration problem, right? At any given point during their coverage you actually get perfect positioning, so we just don't get the time.

As long as you can receive it.

Well, you have to have multiple receivers like you said,

Mm-hmm.

absolutely. We also need a layered infrastructure. From what you said, you need to have satellite resiliency in the areas that's non-terrestrial. As far as airlines go, there's only a certain elevation. Beyond that you still need satellite. elevation. So yes, you only we only solve part of the problem. You need the layered architecture for the rest of it. But if you look at GoGo, you know, you do get certain up to a certain level of being able to multilaterate. In fact, in the sky you see a lot more signals down on the ground. So you can do the multilateration through the terrestrial networks up to a certain height. But after that, you absolutely need to rely on satellites.

Yeah. So I I mean I I love the idea of having a terrestrial backup solution just because Uh, you know, I think that relying exclusively on satellite solutions is uh is is too one dimensional but I you know I do have these concerns the terrestrial solution to be used utilized for aviation and maritime would have to be low frequency with a long bandwidth uh long wave length so that you know you you got the range that you would need for those applications so uh but uh appreciate everyone's testimony. I I yield back.

Thank you very much. The general's time has expired and yields back, the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois second district for five minutes for questions.

Thank you, mister chair, and ranking member Matsui for holding this morning's or afternoon hearing, and thanks to our witnesses for participating. Farmers in my district and across rural America rely on GPS guided equipment. A GPS outage stops the guided tractors, the field mapping and the precision spraying. The yield really takes a hit. That is why we must have backups to GPS in the event the worst happens. However, the path matters as much as the goal. And right now the FCC is considering a complement to GPS that would reconfigure the lower nine hundred MH MHC band. This band is used by hundreds of millions of unlicensed devices every day, including the agricultural sensors farmers depend on. And I have four thousand five hundred farms in my district I'm urban, suburban, and rural. As the FCC evaluates this proposal and others, I wanna make sure that any backup that is approved has to reach rural communities and protect the equipment they run already. Mr. Ron, and happy birthday to you. Your testimony makes the case that a GPS outage would hit agriculture hard, and Nextnet proposes to fill that gap. But someone that reconfiguring the lower NH MHZ band would interfere with the agricultural sensors and unlicensed devices farmers already run on that band. Given the potential interference concerns, How would next nap work with farmers in the agricultural sector to protect existing farm equipment, and how does the system built on five G infrastructure reach farmers in rural areas that five G does not cover today?

Thank you so much, Congresswoman, for highlighting that really important issue, as many have pointed to the solar uh uh impact that there was on farming in twenty twenty four uh was extremely significant and had very large consequences for farmers, we intend to be the back-up and complement to make sure that the farmers do not suffer this five hundred million dollar loss on a terrestrial level. Um, as far as our modernization of the lower nine hundred megahertz band, we have done two years of simulation, field tests, we're operating currently on the network today, we do not see an impact through our engineering, I back my engineering as an engineer, Uh but that's why we have the FCC, that if you know nobody needs to take our word for it, that's why they have to go there over there, present their facts, present their data, and the FCC will will absolutely prioritize something as important as farming to make sure it's not impacted equal to having a P and T backup and complement. They have incredibly smart engineers and staff.

Alrighty, thank you so much. Mister Fell, the next NAHD proposal will put a high-powered five G network in the lower nine hundred MHC band that pharma centers and monitors already rely upon. What happens to that equipment if the FCC grants the next-nav proposal, and are there any guardrails the FCC should impose or could impose on next-nav before approving its proposal so rural communities are not disadvantaged and the devices already in the band are protected?

So a couple of things. One is I feel constrained point out that next nav has not agreed to accept any build-out obligations or other things to ensure serving rural america two it's very hard to cure this stuff after the fact uh there's a nightmare uh uh that uh if you call tell people about the eight hundred megahertz rebanding where the fcc based on its lab results and based on the best uh technology was available approved next tells operation in the eight hundred megahertz band expecting that it could resolve interference with public safety systems. That turned out to be a disaster that took a decade and billions of dollars to straighten out. Uh, the um issue here is the enormous amount uh of power, uh, the fact that they have called for the elimination of rules that currently protect the operation of unlicensed in the system. Now, there are some things that might conceivably be done uh we have in cbrs and other uh places a database system that allows you to deactivate the use of the uh spectrum uh if it turns out it's creating uh too much interference but it's gonna be really hard based on what they're trying to do here right to preserve operation uh in the yeah nine hundred megahertz band not just for uh the unlicensed but for neighboring services as well

Thank you so much for your response. Precision agriculture is so important to the economy of our country in keeping us all fed, and it must be protected at all costs. That is why I was proud to work with my colleague and the, ooh, he's not there, but on the precision agricultural satellite connectivity act. This legislation directs the FCC to review its satellite rules, so precision agriculture can reach the farmers who depend on it. And thank you to the witnesses and now your back.

The gentlelady yields, the chair now recognizes a gentlewoman from California, Miss Baragon, for her five minutes of questioning.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chairman, Miss Dyer. Most Americans think of GPS as the app that helps them get from point A to point B, but this technology plays a much larger role in our daily lives. Tell us how important a GPS is to maintaining a reliable energy infrastructure and what risks we face if the system is disrupted.

Thank you for the question. I I GPS synchronizes all of the transmissions across the energy infrastructure. Its timing signals are absolutely vital to that i energy infrastructure. The good news is that most of those energy and infrastructure folks have installed complimentary capabilities because they're very well aware of those limitations, um and the potential for an outage and the seriousness of that outage. The Department of Homeland Security actually issued a document called Best Practices for Critical Infrastructure. And that helped guide a number of the critical infrastructure, the sixteen different critical infrastructure sectors, in looking at what they should be considering as they're considering complements. And a large number of them have actually been implemented.

Great, thank you, thank you. Mister Grossman, as we modernize our energy systems, what steps should Congress take to help ensure that our energy infrastructure has access to reliable and um um resilient positioning and timing services.

Congresswoman, given uh utility's uh reliance on PNT for everything from grid synchronization to monitoring fault detection and uh uh communications across wide geographic areas it is very clear that we need to have a resilient PNT solution um complimentary P PNT capabilities can provide independent timing and position information And so we would encourage you and the committee, uh, and the broader government to think about what are those solutions that are best suited, uh, for critical infrastructure.

Well, speaking of critical infrastructure, my district is home to the Port of Los Angeles, and it's one of the nation's, uh, most important logistics and trade corridors. Workers, businesses, and consumers all depend on goods moving efficiently through our supply chains. As supply chains become more connected, how important will resilient positioning and timing services be to keep goods moving and avoid uh disruptions that raise costs for consumers.

Congresswoman, very important. If the GPS signal uh at a port such as uh in Los Angeles were jammed or spoofed, companies could lose visibility into the location of vehicles and cargo. So again, similar to the uh example use case you brought up before, absolutely we need to have resilient P and T. I would also point out uh again that the lower nine hundred megahertz uh is used for RFID tags which are found throughout uh ports and throughout the supply chain process so if uh those are disrupted by a complimentary P and T service it would also be devastating so we need to make sure we find a complimentary P and T uh technology uh that does not cause that harmful interference to our uh nation's ports.

For those watching, what is an RFID tag?

uh radio frequency identification so

why is that important

so uh it allows uh retailers there are over fifty uh some billion of these tags uh it's uh for major retailers how they manage inventory and logistics it's how they know where the goods are

great thank you mister feld your testimony raises concerns about maintaining broad public access to position and timing services as new technologies emerge How do we ensure that innovative and resilient positioning and timing technology benefits everyone including communities that may not be early adopters of new technologies?

Yeah, I'd like to point out that all the applications we're talking about, for the electric grid, precision agriculture, all of these things were made possible by open GPS because no one would have paid lots of money for a service they didn't know about or that was reserved exclusively for the military or for a small handful of users, but because it was there, they were able to experiment and were able to develop all of these use cases that we rely upon. So, maintaining that openness is critical. It's critical for individuals who w- rely on these services, even if they don't know they're relying on it. It is critical for the development, uh, of new services. We cannot have a K-shaped GPS system where we move to a premium for some and let others rest at the bottom. The network depends on its universality to deliver the maximum benefit, and we don't know what innovation we will be losing by screening out people who would otherwise not have access.

Great. Thank you to all our witnesses. I yield back.

The gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mister Pflueger, for his five minutes of questioning.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chairman. Um, can anybody speak to any of the nefarious activity that's going on, maybe um in the Middle East or around on uh the GPS systems there, how that affects uh yeah please, this is Miss, Miss Dyer.

Hello and congratulations on your recent retirement from the Air Force.

Thank you.

I I there are there is a a jamming and spoofing is taking place all throughout the Middle East right now. Um, some of that is in there are spec- there's some speculation that some countries are actually jamming and spoofing as a defensive mechanism, so that when drones are heading in their direction, the drones will lose contact, lose their navigation heading, and then drop down out of the sky. Some of us do been do uh been done to try to prevent some other activities that governments are conducting in that area that are using GPS to be reliant upon.

So, kinda going off of that um theme, when we are prioritizing and evaluating the technologies,

Mm-hmm.

um, you know, what are some of the criteria and and interoperability or resilience standards that we should be looking at? I know you guys have discussed this already, but just to reiterate, I mean, what what are the most important standards that we need to be considering?

First of all, for the military, I would really encourage that we invest heavily in GPS three F satellites. There are some being built, there are ten additional ones to be purchased at this point. It will provide a sixty-three times improvement in GP uh resilience to jamming for the military, so that would be my top priority for our forces who are trying to operate in some of those denied areas. The next step I would say is to add a another signal to we're almost there, it's called the L five signal. It was developed specifically for aviation. We need three more satellites up in space to be transmitting this to complete the constellation of L five signals being transmitted from GPS plus some ground station improvements that are starting to get underway but could be accelerated so that that signal could be integrated into all of the aviation and maritime uh industries that are currently f- facing some of the biggest challenges as they're trying to transit through the Middle East. and other areas. So those would be my top two. I'd also think that looking at the commercial P and T systems that are almost there and ready to go would be my other priorities that they're gonna offer much more resilience to jamming.

Congressman, may I also add? Um Admiral Mike Rogers, former NSA Director and Head of Cyber Command, says, " Things with speed and scale." uh you need those kinds of systems so multi-layered satellite terrestrial but on the terrestrial ground base he calls out speed and scale so meaning that solutions that can be in in many different devices solutions that are fast to the market and i completely agree with him

ok i'll take one more and then i have another question

yeah i i would just point out that we uh with bps have been working with the national institute of standards in technology part of the department of commerce the keeper of weights in measures for our government. And um and so we have been working with them to meet all of the relevant standards as it relates to the various different critical infrastructures and not only are we uh meeting them in many cases we are far exceeding them.

Thank you. Uh, Mister Grossman, um are the consumer devices that we we have today capable uh of receiving both GPS and maybe alternative PNT signals?

we're talking about smartlets use smartphones for example since at this point they're probably the largest number of consumer uh enabled devices with GPS, uh there are a number of other PNT technologies that are incorporated in most modern smartphones. Uh, a barometer, uh accelerometer, uh wifi, bluetooth, uh these are all happening behind the scenes of the device, uh combined with GPS to improve uh accuracy. Most consumers may not realize it, but but they're all there uh helping to improve the accuracy of the device.

Is there a, cuz we're hearing a lot of different things from, you know, the different stakeholders and and obviously this is really important that we get it right. In the same way that we see spoofing, jamming, or some other interference uh wi- with aircraft, is that also possible with personal devices?

Uh a- absolutely. I mean uh GPS jamming and spoofing is a real threat, and I think we need to go about it through a a two-prong process. There's the one Miss Dyers talked about, the modernization of GPS, which is gonna uh improve the accuracy and resiliency of the constellation, making GPS better, but then we should also continue to explore these complementary PNT solutions.

Thank you for helping us uh as we consider these uh very important criteria and moving forward. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

The gentleman yields. I now yield five minutes to myself for questioning. Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today. The topic of this hearing is one that impacts Americans across countless industries, including as mentioned by Representative Kelly, agriculture. GPS technology is a critical component of precision agriculture. Farmers rely on this infrastructure each and every day to improve farming efficiency, to track important environmental factors that may impact their crop yield, and maximize profitability. The use of precision agriculture has truly revolutionized the industry. Advancements in technology have vastly improved farmers' approach to their livelihoods, giving them opportunities to innovate, to focus on efficient strategies, to increase crop yield, and to contribute even more to the agriculture economy. In the district that I represent in South Central and Southwestern Pennsylvania, The precision and presence of that technology benefits the farmers and the fruit growers. In Bedford County, drone technology is used to check crops by monitoring growth and ultimately saves farmers valuable time. In Blair and Cambria counties, West Central Equipment brings precision agriculture machinery to my constituents and actually comes back into the fields and offers services for repair when necessary. In Cumberland County, Swift Aeroseed Services farms with aerial seating utilizing unmanned aircraft system again saving money and saving time. It's clear that rural communities in my district rely on these technologies that bring optimization and innovation to countless farming families. But that doesn't come without its challenges, as you all know. In Pennsylvania's thirteenth congressional district, the resilience of these technologies that rely on a strong GPS signal is a real concern for many of my constituents, including the farmers. As this subcommittee our GPS infrastructure, it is important that we bring the hardworking farmers that we rely on every day into this conversation. Mister Grossman, in your written testimony you discussed the importance of the United States focusing on developing GPS resilience. the impact of inadequate GPS signal will be felt throughout my district. Imagine a farmer spraying fertilizer when that connection is disrupted. This could cause wasted fertilizer, tractor steering failure, and actually even lead to crop loss. Mister Grossman, without alternative technology in place, can you speak to the impact on precision agriculture and how that should exist with these severe disruptions?

Thank you for that question, Congressman. Agriculture presents one of the perfect examples of why complimentary PNT is so important. Uh, you've uh described it perfectly in terms of how farmers today are using uh GPS and PNT. Um, there are a number of other technologies that are already uh in operation today, uh, that augment that uh connection via GPS, including uh an example I provided earlier called RTK, which uh gives that centimeter level accuracy. It's still using GPS uh but i-

But we need that centimeter accuracy that you referenced earlier, and I wanted you to reference that again. That is important for agriculture, it's important to have that backup system available, correct?

Yes, sir.

Mister Matheny, in your written testimony you described an alternative PNT system. How does the Broadcast Positioning System perform in rural areas Are you aware of any application in precision agriculture?

So, uh, we believe one of the great strengths of the Broadcast Positioning System is its coverage, and the fact that it operates from tall towers at very high power, and it can actually get a signal into those rural areas. Uh, the deployments that we have thus far cover uh, from a single tower uh in Denver were reaching seventy-five thousand uh square kilometers. And so, Um, there's uh, we know that it can can play that. We do not have precision agriculture today, but a recent NIST study that was published a month ago said that BPS um, uh, can offer three point three eight meters of accuracy. That is before for navigation, that is before you add RTK, that is before you add other fusion technologies to get down to the centimeter level. We know that we can uh, build BPS into these applications and uh, and and make it part of the fabric of the P and T.

Thank you for your incredible testimony here today. I think we all recognize that GPS resilience and modernization will impact all Americans. And that's no exaggeration. My constituents rely on this technology every day, including, as I mentioned, these hardworking farmers that put food on tables throughout America. We know that food security is indeed national security. we have to make sure that any solutions considered are also effective for rural areas. As we continue this important conversation, I look forward to continuing to advocate for rural areas that are so often left behind as technology advances. As a being a personal member of the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau, I stand ready to work with farmers and with fruit growers that I serve, and the constituents who benefit from their hard work. We cannot leave agriculture out of this discussion. Thank you, and I yield back my time. Uh, I now uh yield for five minutes of questioning to Mister Mullen.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, thank you to our witnesses for your testimony. Very educational uh boarding. So PNT technology has become indispensable infrastructure in our daily lives, despite the fact that most of us never see it or even know the extent to which we are relying on it. GPS is the most well-known PNT technology. GPS is what has made it possible for us to use our cell phones, to get turn-by-turn directions while we drive, and for search and rescue teams to find survivors. It helps the US military keep us safe. In one very personal example, it helps my family and I keep track of our husky dog, Storm, and make sure he doesn't get lost in the neighborhood when he inevitably escapes. We know that GPS as it stands today is far too vulnerable and inadequate to meet modern needs. As we've heard, it's too easy to spoof, jam and take off-line. This is also a thirty year old technology and newer solutions have shown to address these issues and provide even more precision. Innovative companies have been working on this for years now. I'm proud to have at least one of them in my district in California fifteen, Zona Space Systems. I recently visited its headquarters in Burlingame, California, and was extremely impressed by what I saw. I've also authored H. forty three forty four the resilient LEO act uh low earth orbit p n t act which calls for a demonstration project of this kind of technology in low earth orbit which could potentially provide a more powerful signal to earth-based devices that GPS currently provides with cyber security built in. I wanna specifically highlight something, mister Feld, you said at the beginning of your testimony that GPS ranks beside the internet as one of the most important contributions of the United States to the world. of the twentieth century. I think that highlights the important role the US can play in developing essential technology for the entire globe. But it doesn't happen by accident. The GPS revolution was a result of intentional and sustained investment by Congress. So, Mister Feld, I'm particularly interested in your views on ensuring the next generation of PNT remains a public good. Your analogy to the federal highway system is useful. It's hard to imagine our national infrastructure without it, now are wholly turning this responsibility over to private entities solely, although there is certainly a major role uh for for companies to play. So can you talk more about what uh the risks are to consumers, public safety and the broader economy if the country moves toward only proprietary P and T systems? And what should Congress do to make sure advanced P and T systems remain accessible to everyone?

So first I'm gonna agree with Ms. Dyer that our highest priority should be upgrade GPS that it should be continue to be uh the gold standard for global uh PNT, and one of America's crown jewels. Um uh the danger of creating a tiered system where we are just pay to play or we have pay to play and we allow everything else to uh uh degenerate, it will first of all impose significant costs. The farmers that uh um he was referring to uh right now have gps available to them for free if it is only a private solution they will have new costs at a time when farmers cannot bear new costs easily uh in all of our homes uh where we are reliant on the timing function for electricity if it's only a private uh solution that's another add-on to the electric bill and with regard to our individual uh uses uh you're gonna see in your cell phone, okay um unless you pay premium, you will get the bad GPS, the legacy GPS, and you will get lost.

I just wanna turn to um emergency alerts which play an important role in keeping communities safe from natural disasters but their effectiveness depends on precise geo-targeting during last year's fires and Los Angeles, over ten million people were accidentally sent an evacuation warning intended for a single neighborhood triggering panic and hindering emergency response efforts a twenty twenty-two wireless emergency alert test by the FCC found that the needed geo-targeting precision only worked for one third of the devices that supported it so clearly we have work to do here so Mister Feld again, focusing on the role uh GPS plays in this how might we strengthen our national PNT infrastructure, to help improve the precision and reliability of emergency alerts. And you have twenty seconds.

Uh, I'm almost tempted to say let me answer in the QFRs. Uh, I was on the FCC SISRC when we discussed, uh, uh, how we can enhance, uh, geo-fencing, uh, with regard to, well, uh, the emergency alerts and, um, it's a complicated question that I'd be happier to answer in writing.

Very good. Appreciate it. Thank you. With that, I yield back.

Gentleman Yales now, call on Mister Goleman from Texas for his five minutes of questioning.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, thank you panelists for being here today. Uh, Miss Dyer, over the last few years the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport has experienced several GPS disruptions that cause wide-spread flight delays and in at least one case caused an aircraft to lose GPS signal for the remainder of the flight. Uh, what do incidents like this tell us about the need for back-up systems when GPS is disrupted or unavailable?

Thank you Congressman for the question. I think in that case, I think there would be two two angles to take a look at. One, I would suggest um uh repeating a suggestion I made earlier that the that Congress might have an opportunity here to look at the inter-agency coordination processes among federal agencies when they are taking a look at testing other types of technologies that might impact those flights coming in and out of Dallas, Fort Worth. It's very valuable as everybody starts descending on the United States for World Cup, for instance.

Uh-huh.

They are going to be almost every element of the World Cup event. Transportation as well as the games are gonna rely on GPS. The second is that I think the new aviation signal for GPS L five is really important to start getting uh moving forward it's going to provide additional resiliency. it is integrated into the aviation receivers. A key point about new technologies, they have to get integrated into receivers, and in the aviation space there are a series of standards that have to be developed, and promulgated, and then integrated into those receivers, and installed into the aircraft. So it's not a quick turn-around time to get any new signal installed in any receiver but particularly in aviation receivers. So the fastest route to improving that is one, looking at those inter-agency procedures, and two, focusing on the L five signal.

Thank you very much. Um, Ms. Surian, as you may know, the nine hundred megawatts band is critically important for electric oil and natural gas companies in Texas and across the country, enabling them to operate their equipment and respond effectively in emergency situations. How has Nexna have assessed the total number of critical infrastructure devices currently operating? in this frequency range, and if so, what would be the cost and feasibility of replacing, relocating, or modifying those devices?

Thank you, Congressman, for highlighting that important question. Um, Nextnet has assessed every publicly available data on the stakeholders in the nine hundred megahertz band that are consistent of license and unlicensed operations our studies our rigorous technical data with lab, field, and a current live operational network that has no reports of interference demonstrate that there will be no impact to the unlicensed operations. Uh, we continue to stand by our engineering, um, and we're happy to reach out to more stakeholders, cuz we have reached out to many of them to actually discuss this, to address their concerns. We do not see an impact, but That's why we have the FCC, so that they could actually look at everybody's technical data. I do have a map here of our Santa Clara market that we are transmitting live on five G today. In this area, many of the operations you just mentioned, retailers, airports, they all exist here. They're all within this map. And not a single one has reported interference.

Thank you very much. That's all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you.

The gentleman yields, and now I recognize Miss Kamek from Florida for her five minutes of questioning.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Um, lots of committee activity today, so I have been working it across the Capitol Hill. Um, I'm going to jump right into um, my questions. Uh, but I, uh, before I do, I wanna just highlight, um, I think we've all come to an agreement that a a redundancy system for GPS, it is absolutely a matter of national security. I don't think you'll find a single member on this panel who does not think that that is important. But I think it's a question of how we do that in a way that um doesn't create new problems um in addressing this current one. So I'll start with you. Now, is it Sarand? Did I say that right?

Yes, Congresswoman, perfect.

Miss Sarand. Perfect. All right. I never wanna get a name wrong, but I often do. So thank you. So, again, agree, I believe we both agree that we need a resilient backup to GPS, especially given the number of jamming threats and other issues. But, we have numerous public safety organizations, including fire chiefs, police chiefs, sheriffs' associations, et cetera, that have raised concerns about the proposal and the impact it would have on existing operations in and around the nine hundred megahertz band. As a wife of a first responder, I can say this issue is very personal. So can you explain specifically what independent testing, which you were just alluding to, with my colleague has been conducted to demonstrate that the first responder communication and public safety systems will not experience harmful interference under your proposal? And to add to that, have you communicated with all of these stakeholder organizations and what have those conversations been?

Thank you, Congresswoman. We share the same passion. And thank you to your husband for his service until just a few minutes ago there was the deputy chief of fairfax county uh chief cox right here there was former uh commissioner and fire chief of boston joe finn ron cooley captain cooley so i'm just not gonna name all of them but we need to give importance and significance to these folks

mmm

they're putting their lives on the line for us there's also organize the organizations you mentioned they're highly respected we are in dialogue with them we would will work with them whatever the requirement is, because what we do today and our product serves public safety.

Mm.

That's why you got a letter from IAFF today. That's why you had six out of ten of the largest US cities, public safety officials write to this committee, which include Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Phoenix, Philly, Fort Worth, Boston, I'm sorry, a lot of them to say why they need this, because it saves lives. We give vertical Z axis commercial today.

Mm-hmm.

to these firefighters, it saves their life. It's when a nine one one caller is dispatched,

Mm-hmm.

that's our technology is being used.

Well, and and not to cut you off here, but I represent a very rural district, and communications in rural America today is vastly different than communications particularly public safety communications in the urban setting. And when we have one single prime tower for communications and multiple departments that can't communicate with each other because they're on different bands, I think that is a unique challenge that you'll have to overcome. So I would love to know, have you communicated with any of the rural sheriffs' associations, any of the first responder associations? I know IAFF, I love them, they're great. Um, but there is a huge rural component that I think needs to be addressed specifically.

Congressman, you are absolutely right. Yes. We go to summit events, talk to them all the time, because if we don't, we cannot build products that serve their needs. Absolutely. And we will make sure we protect them, we will make sure we address their concerns. And you're absolutely right, the rule becomes very important and we intend to make sure that they continue to do their jobs without being concerned about being found.

Now, I'm gonna hold you to that. Everyone in this room, especially on this panel, knows that I'm a bit of a bulldog, so I am gonna hold you to it in a nice way. Um, but I look forward to communi- continuing that conversation, particularly with our rural uh public safety officials. I'm gonna jump into the existing users that are currently in this band. So, um, a number of witnesses have noted that the lower nine hundred band is already heavily utilized and licensed and is being used by users that are unlicensed. This is in utilities as was mentioned, security technologies, other critical infrastructure. Now CTA testified that hundreds of millions of devices rely on the current operating environment. And while pub- public knowledge cited widespread opposition from public safety utilities aviation and security stakeholders. So why should Congress or the FCC accept the risk of disrupting existing critical infrastructure users when alternative technologies are being developed that do not require such a significant restructuring of spectrum rights?

Uh, Congresswoman, I appreciate you asking that important question. L let me just say first of all, we currently have the licenses, we're currently transmitting we're transmitting five G in Santa Clara with no reported interference. We've also in addition to that put two years of lab simulation data testing that shows that fact-based engineering is important and I as an engineer stand behind all of that but that is why exactly we have the FCC because when there are disagreements and there are concerns from others the FCC should actually handle it, but I I can assure you the same assurance I gave you last time that our engineering is fact-based and valid and our operations

OK. I'm gonna again follow up with you. Um, I think we have some work to do in order to get this uh down the line a little bit further, but my time has well expired, so I'll submit the rest of my questions for the record. Thank you all so much, and I appreciate a rapid response. I yield.

The general the general idea yields. Um, I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents staff hearing documents list without objection so ordered. Uh, seeing there are no further members wishing to be recognized, I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today. I remind members that they have ten business days to submit questions for the record, and I ask the witnesses to witnesses to respond to those questions promptly. Members submit s- s- should submit their questions by the close of business on June eighteenth. uh, twenty twenty six without objection the subcommittee is adjourned

okay

thank you