Hearings to examine the President's Fiscal Year 2027 Budget Request for Military Construction and

And Senator Gillibrand is en route. She is on her way. We were gonna wait a minute for her, but I can be doing my opening remarks until she gets here. Welcome and thank you all for being here. We certainly want to uh thank the secretary for being here and uh we'll get started, and try to stay on schedule for everyone today. But I'm pleased to be joined by the um Chair Collins and Vice Chair Murray will be here soon, and Gillibrand will be here soon, and the subcommittee members as we review the fiscal year twenty twenty seven budget request for the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Secretary Turner, thank you again for being here, and uh hopefully we can get you down to Mississippi for an SEC football game in the uh near future. I certainly want to extend that invitation to you.

Thank you.

But as we kick off the FY twenty-seven appropriations process, the committee finds itself in a familiar position of uncertainty. There is no top-line agreement in place to set the parameters for overall spending across the subcommittees yet, but uh we're also waiting to see if CBO will share OMB's optimism regarding FHA and Ginnie Mae receipts as well. Adding to this year's uncertainty, the committee will no longer be able to rely on funding from iija to help address some of the transportation needs facing our nation this means the housing challenges and the economic development needs of communities across the country must be balanced again competing demands against competing demands in the transportation space especially the aviation safety space to begin funding that balance we will today focus on the department of housing urban development. The administration's HUD request is seventy-three point five billion dollars compared to eighty-four point two billion for the current funding levels. Within this proposed lower funding level is the elimination of the popular CDBG and home programs. The CDBG programs enjoy strong bipartisan support because it provides flexible funding for critical investments serving low and moderate income communities across the country. This essential resource for state and local government lies at the heart of HUD's community development mission. And at a time when there is a need to increase the supply of affordable housing, the home program serves a critical role as both gap financing in partnership with tax credits and supporting home rehabilitation for low income homeowners. I again find myself disagreeing with OMB over its proposal to eliminate the section four and shop programs which grow local non-profit capacity and use sweat equity models to promote home ownership. Mister Secretary, you have previously spoken of the importance of patient capital capital and the intent of the uh context of opportunity zones. I believe HUD's self-sufficiency programs are another example of this belief. The investment in breaking cycles of poverty and government dependency through the family self-sufficient and Ross programs is a patient capital. That is transforming lives. I'm disappointed to once again see OMB propose the elimination of these important programs. Within the overall FY twenty-seven request, funding of existing rental assistance maintains maintenance cost will also need to be addressed. It should be noted that the majority of households benefitting from these programs are seniors, the disabled, and single parent households. Setting aside the question of funding levels, I appreciate that the budget request begins a conversation around how to best maintain the viability of the rental assistance programs. The administration's rental assistance proposals largely fall outside the jurisdiction of this subcommittee, and it remains to be seen how the authorizing committees will incorporate those ideas into ongoing work. However, there are program improvements HUD can undertake now. The lessons of the moving to work program are not just around big policy ideas. There is a body of work on streamlining programs' operations and management the back office work that i encourage hud as quickly as possible incorporate into the larger pool of ph as that do not have mtw status i also continue to encourage the department to move quickly to resolve the policy direction around the covid era thirty day notice to vacate proposed rule despite the proposed funding reductions i am pleased to see that the request continues to support the Melania Trump Foster Youth to Independence Initiative, an initiative first funded by Chair Collins. This crucial funding ensures that when youth exit foster care or at risk of homelessness, they have access to a section eight voucher to help stabilize their housing situation. The request also continues funding for the HUD payment integrity initiative to help ensure that taxpayer funds are used appropriately. I understand and share the administration's concern about rising costs across government spending. Funding decisions should be guided by both physical responsibility and careful thought and deliberation. Within the constraints placed on us, the committee stands ready to work with the department to identify a path forward to improve program efficiency and its effectiveness. Reducing undue regulatory burdens and lowering housing production costs are two examples of where congress and the administration can identify early successes to build on. Too often environmental review of requirements differ just enough to require multiple reviews for the exact same projects. Where the department has flexibility it should use it and HUD should bring to our attention that any solutions it identifies that require congressional action the Baja Baja the baba waiver process needs to be clarified and it needs to be improved. This will require coordination between both HUD and OMB, but clear timelines and reasonable data request as part of that process can result in more affordable housing built being built rather than disappearing into the black hole of the federal bureaucracy. While there is no single right of approach to increasing housing production facilitate facilitating facilitating the increased use of nontraditional building processes and materials, such as mass timber, that I'm a big fan of, is a critical component of any solution that's will be successful. I look forward to working with ranking member Gillibrand and our colleagues to write a physically responsible THUD bill this year one that best serves the needs of Americans across the country. Secretary Turner, once again, thank you for appearing before the committee today. I look forward to your testimony and to continuing these important conversations. I'll now turn to Ranking Member Gillibrand for her opening statement.

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I've really enjoyed working with you over this past year for the twenty twenty-six bipartisan appropriations bill, earlier this year, and I look forward to continuing our strong working relationship. Thank you, Secretary Turner, for joining us today to discuss fiscal year twenty twenty seven budget um and your request for the department of housing and urban development i don't have to tell you because you've traveled around the country working people are doing everything right they're working longer hours they're raising their families and they're serving in their communities and yet more and more americans can't afford a safe place to live young people cannot afford to buy their first home Seniors are being priced out of communities they helped build and showing up in shelters at record rates. Teachers, nurses, firefighters and veterans are struggling to pay rent in the neighborhoods where they work. Unfortunately, your proposed budget only makes the problem worse. It would result in less affordable housing around the country for hundreds of thousands of families. The budget eliminates key programs that our states, local governments and faith-based not-for-profits rely on each day to house, feed and protect our most vulnerable neighbors. Housing affordability is not just an economic issue, it's a moral issue. Stable housing affects everything, your child's education, your health, your safety, your ability to build wealth and your faith in the future. But under this administration, Haught has too often been treated as an afterthought. Instead of investing two hundred billion dollars on a war that Americans never asked for, instead, we could provide housing for every American living in a shelter and fully repair and modernize every single public housing unit in New York, and build over a hundred thousand affordable housing units in New York City. Instead of meeting this crisis with the seriousness and work that is needed, this administration has chosen cuts and chaos. Whether it's through intentional administrative dysfunction or dismantling core programs for the most vulnerable people, the ripple effects of that chaos alone is hurting our ability to do the one thing we all agree on, building more housing. As if this weren't enough, the President's continued pursuit of tariffs has increased the cost of building homes. These policies are driving up prices and delaying projects. We already do not have enough skilled workers to meet demands. And now the administration's immigration policies are redu reducing the workforce that literally builds. american homes drilling further down every developer and provider that i have met with tells me that they are experiencing more uncertainty than ever before there's nothing banks and investors like less than uncertainty affordable housing projects are getting more expensive and they're stalling investors and underwriters are requiring reserve funds costly lines of credit and adding other real costs they no longer have faith in the administration and HUD. So what should we be doing instead? First, we need massive, a massive national commitment to building more housing, affordable housing, workforce housing, starter homes, and supportive housing. We need HUD rental Assistance, Home, and Housing Trust Fund dollars to continue to build the deeply affordable housing that is most scarce in our country. We need to support local governments that are committed to reducing barriers to building more housing so that our constituents can live near transit, jobs and schools. Second, we need a fully funded and fully functional HUD. When HUD cannot process grants or build America by America waivers efficiently, affordable housing projects stall and get more, not less, expensive. When HUD can't quickly turn around the funds that Congress appropriates, thousands of New Yorkers agonize over falling into homelessness in a matter of just a few short months. When HUD ignores the law, nonprofits are left waiting for funds for months, faced with a host of terrible choices, taking out costly loans, cutting back services, laying off staff, or closing altogether. When HUD can't properly enforce anti-discrimination laws, families, seniors, and individually individuals with disabilities suffer. When HUD is falling down on its responsibility to address the mold, vermin, lead paint, and other health hazards in assisted housing, the health, education, and future of our children are jeopardized. Housing is foundational to a strong economy. If people can't afford to live where they live, if people can't afford to live where they work, the economy weakens. If families spend half their income on rent, they can't save, can't invest, certainly can't start a business. If young Americans believe homeownership is permanently out of reach, we erode faith in upward mobility and the American dream itself. America is capable of solving these big problems. We've done it before. But it requires leadership, grounded in competence, compassion and facts, not division, scapegoating or dismantling the very institutions and programs that are responsible for helping people. This requires investment, ones that this committee are willing to make. I want to work together to solve these problems. But your fiscal twenty-seven HUD budget does not meet this moment. Mister Secretary, I look forward to hearing from you and thank Chair Hyde-Smith for her leadership and dedication.

Thank you, Senator Gillibrand, and now we're going to turn to Mister Secretary.

Well, good morning, uh, everyone, and thank you, Chair Hyde-Smith, Ranking Member Gillibrand, and Chairwoman Collins, and this distinguished, uh, committee of members, I really appreciate you and this opportunity to testify on the President Trump's twenty twenty seven budget and what it means for the Department of Housing and Urban Development. At HUD we remain focused on a simple principle, the American dream of home ownership must be within reach. That requires affordability, stewardship, and a shared duty between HUD and Congress. Taxpayer dollars are finite, but our responsibility is not. The President's proposal reflects that approach. It rains in wasteful spending, stops the ballooning of federal welfare programs and continues HUD's mission-minded focus on serving the American people. The budget proposes to end the Community Development Block Grant program, also known as CDBG, which was created to revitalize urban communities but has lost focus and often supports activities like equity officers in Chicago and equity lens framework in Denver and requirements in Massachusetts tied to DEI initiatives. Ending CDBG allows us to focus funding on programs directly impacting housing affordability. The president's proposal also reinforces HUD's commitment to the statutory intent of the Fair Housing Act rather than on activities that are anything but fair. We will continue to enforce the law as written because fair housing is indeed about equal rights but it's not about extra rights. On homelessness, the data is clear. By the end of the Biden administration, HUD's spending on continuum of care surged by more than fifty percent. yet street homelessness rose by twenty percent since twenty twenty. Despite record funding, communities reported record homelessness. Since serving as secretary, I've raised the concerns about the Housing First model, an approach which fails to address underlying causes of homelessness, such as substance abuse and mental illness. Housing First feeds a homeless industrial complex that simply warehouses the homeless. Compassion requires results. not just resources. And HUD will focus on addressing root causes and pathways to self-sufficiency instead of trapping Americans in government dependency. The president's plan uh reinforces HUD's commitment to stewardship of taxpayer dollars and priorities that serve our nation's most vulnerable people. The budget also secures thirty million dollars for the Monolia Trump Foster Youth to Independence Initiative. There are roughly twenty thousand young Americans who age out of foster care annually. and nearly one in four experience homelessness. I've already directly heard from foster youth, they are not asking for handouts, they're asking for tools to achieve independence. They're fighting to stand on their own two feet and help their peers break the cycle and build a brighter future for themselves. Earning a paycheck is indeed empowering, getting a handout is not. That is why the president is proposing work requirements of at least twenty hours per week, five-year time limits for able-bodied Americans in HUD rental Assistance programs. This helps individuals graduate from government assistance and makes room for vulnerable Americans that are on wait lists. The budget also includes a hundred and sixty million dollars for Federal Housing Administration contracts to help Americans access affordable and sustainable home ownership opportunities. Across HUD we are strengthening program integrity. In December we published a FY twenty-five agency financial report. that uncovered over five billion dollars in potential payment error under the Biden administration, this is unacceptable. Accountability is not optional, it's a fundamental public trust. We're also making her more efficient by relocating our Robert C. Weaver Federal Building uh to Alexandria, a move that reflects a broader commitment to modernization. The Weaver Building had deteriorated beyond cost-effective repair with more than five hundred million dollars. in delinquent and deferred maintenance and over twenty-two million dollars in annual operating costs. By relocating, HUD is saving taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars while providing employees with a safe and collaborative workspace. The budget also gives thirty million dollars for our program integrity initiative or HUD unified grant system, Project HUGS, which will build on HUD's sub-recipient report and pilot to support data analysis, and identify improper payment so we can better combat waste, fraud, and abuse. Under this administration, HUD has indeed delivered. Since January of twenty twenty five, we have supported home ownership for one point two million American households with more than seventy percent being first time buyers. That is what focused and disciplined policy can achieve. The president's plan builds on that progress. It brings discipline to federal spending and regulation, strengthens accountability, and reinforces HUD's mission. We'll focus on results, Madam Chair, not just rhetoric. This vision pos- pos- positions her to lead a renaissance of housing revitalization, one that increases supply, expands access, and delivers real opportunity for the American people. It's my honor to be here with you all this morning. Thank you, Madam.

Thank you very much. Now we're going to go to questions, and I'll recognize Senator Collins.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Mister Secretary, welcome.

Thank you.

All of us agree that we should collaborate toward the goal of increasing housing supply. The lack of affordable housing holds back both community and economic development, as well as affects family stability and workforce availability. In Maine, there are far too many of our police officers, firefighters, teachers, nurses, and others who cannot afford to live in or near the communities in which they are employed. Economic development is also strengthened, I realize, by the objectives of the Build America Buy America Act, or BABA. Unfortunately, HUD's implementation of BABA stands in the way far too often of building affordable housing. In March, a Maine newspaper reported that ten Maine projects that would add more than four hundred units of affordable housing were fully permitted and ready to go, except that they lacked HUD BABA waivers. Although OMB's guidance excludes privately owned homes, such as multifamily housing profit piece from BABA's definition of infrastructure, HUD's guidance continues to find projects with five or more units as public infrastructure. HUD's waiver process relies on the individual project-based waivers rather than product-based. A review of the waivers submitted to HUD reveals multiple waiver requests for heat pumps and HVAC systems, cases where they're simply are not BABA-compliant production. developers in maine have shared with me that while it would be a great use of a product specific waiver they are instead required to resubmit waiver requests for the very same parts and components for each individual project so that results in months long delays and it leads to unmanageable cost increases And it can place financing, especially through tax credits, at risk. So it feels like HUD's waiver process for BABA is a black hole where affordable housing dies. What can you do to streamline and improve this process so that it is not an obstacle to building affordable housing?

Uh, yes ma'am, thank you Madam Chair. And as you know, when we came into this administration, we really did inherit a a broken system, as it pertains to Baba. Uh, there were no processes in place so that we could process these waivers and streamline this system. And so our team has been working very intentionally, uh, and hard every day to make sure we can streamline this process. And we're happy to take your input as I'm here today to listen, uh, to your input and work with you and your office and members of this committee. Uh, you know the President's commitment, obviously as I do, you know that we uh, source materials here in America. But from the HUD's standpoint, we want to streamline this process and we're working very hard, uh, to get these systems in place, uh, for the waivers. So thank you for your input and I I will, uh, happy to work with you, uh, and take your, uh, advice on this.

Thank you. I think real progress could be made in that area.

Yes, ma'am.

Um, Mister Secretary, enabling seniors to age in is critical for their health and well-being and accommodating their preferences. Uh, it also helps the stability of local communities, and it is much less expensive than moving an older adult to an assisted living facility. Maine is the oldest state in the nation by median age. And for these reasons, I i authored the program where i when i held the uh chairwoman's position years ago at hud for low cost low barrier high impact home modifications that simply would allow seniors to remain in their own homes and oftentimes these are minor uh low cost modifications such as grab bars and railings and replacing doorknobs and faucets, as well as in some cases bigger modifications, such as replacing an existing bear bathtub with a walk-in tub, or building an outside wheelchair ramp. All of these, however, far less expensive and far more accommodating to the older person's wishes, then moving into an assisted living. facility. They want to remain in their own homes, if possible.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, in the case of replacing tubs in existing homes I'm talking about, or anchoring wheelchair ramps on existing property footprints, HUD has determined these activities require environmental reviews. Once again, that results in time delays, cost increases and discourages proven strategies to help our seniors remain in their own homes.

Mm-hmm.

To correct this problem, I included language in the FY twenty twenty six bill to ensure that the improvements were not subject to unreasonable environmental reviews.

Mm-hmm.

I also included working with my colleagues, including the chair and ranking member, uh to adjust the cap under the cost of home modif modifications to account for annual changes in the cost of labor materials and supplies. Mister Secretary, do you support these important common sense improvements and will they be fully implemented as part of the next funding competition?

Well, thank you, uh, Chair Collins, and, you know, I understand and do appreciate uh your priority and your care for our senior citizens, as we've talked about before. We wanna make sure at HUD that we are providing as much flexibility uh as you alluded to as we can uh to make sure that our seniors are taken care of and give this flexibility to builders that are building uh these senior projects. And again, we do look forward to continue working with you on this to make sure uh that our senior citizens around our country in particular uh in your great state are taken care of.

Thank you. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank you. Now, Senator Gillibrand is recognized for her questioning.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Senator Terry Turner, you and I have a lot of shared values,

Yes.

we also have a lot of shared goals. And I listened to your opening statement about those shared goals, and I just don't agree with how you're getting there, because I don't know, I mean I get it to say we don't wanna fund programs if they're not working well enough, we don't wanna fund programs if they're creating dependency, and they're not moving people to where they need to be in society. I fully understand that. But I'd like to see the results. If your way, not funding all these programs, is better than the way this committee has tried to address homelessness over decades, I wanna see the results. Where is the homeless data report? It is over a year late? And that would give us the data to see if your theory about how to address homelessness actually works.

Excellent. Well, thank you, uh, Ranking Member Gillibrand. And you're right, we do share, uh, some of these values. The way that we get there, I think, differ at times. Uh, but we're happy to continue. And we've had a great working relationship. And what I will say, and I offer this, is number one, the point in time, uh, report in the Biden administration hud, uh, said that we had seven hundred and seventy thousand, me- uh, seven hundred and seventy thousand people in America that were homeless at one given time. And this is with record funding. So we have record funding, but yet we have an increase in straight homelessness.

Right, so what is your, what is your record?

Yes ma'am.

You've had this job for well over a year.

I have.

I just wanna know, did you get the number down? Do we have seven hundred thousand homeless still? Or is it a million or a million point five? So, I get, you wanna do things differently,

Indeed.

and this committee will support you as long as the goals are good,

Okay, good.

but where's the result? The, the, the report is delayed over a year. Over a year.

Can I, can I offer this to you?

So we have no, yes, but we have no,

Can I offer this to you?

I just don't wanna hear about what you don't like about the Biden administration.

And good.

You're in charge.

Yeah.

You have a vision.

Yeah.

Let's see it. Let's see the results.

Good. And you know what I do? I thank God that I'm in charge so we can do stuff different. Because the plays that were ran before I got here, they failed. I've been here, let me speak if you will. I got here, you said I have been here a little bit over a year. But you all had, during the Biden administration, four years.

Stop talking about Biden.

And it was record funding, it's record funding.

Talk about your record. This is so, this is so,

And homelessness went up,

this is so inaccurate,

if I may, Frank, a member of the General Brand.

unhelpful, and doesn't let this committee do our job.

The Chair, if I may. The point in time report would be out by now if we did not have an unprecedented government shutdown. It would be out by now. If we went in constant litigation, it would be out by now. HUD has a great form, we have a great team, and we move very expeditiously.

In what way does litigation

But during the, we could not work during the government shutdown.

OK, Mister Secretary, I think you're obfuscating.

I'm not, I'm just stating, I'm just stating the facts.

What way does litigation slow down your report?

I'm stating the facts. A government shutdown helps us to not be able to work. It was a government shutdown.

Oh, I get that, but tell me about the litigation.

The point in, the point in time report would be out right now if we did not have a government shutdown. Irregardless of all of that, during the Biden administration, record funding,

Oh my God, if you talk about, it's like,

record funding, record homelessness.

it's like two children saying, " I didn't do it, my brother did it." Stop with the excuses.

That's what I have to go off of. That's what I have to go off of.

Just explain your

Record funding, Record homelessness.

Record homelessness.

We have to do something different.

We have to do something different.

If after I'm gone,

Switch topic. Switch topic.

if after I'm gone,

Honestly.

if it's still record funding and record homelessness,

I don't wanna, you know what, after you're gone,

then you're doing the same thing.

it's too late for the families that are suffering in New York today.

But it is. It is gonna, it's gonna get better.

Do you know what it's like to be a homeless little girl who has to have a

It's gonna get better.

Girl Scout troop just for other homeless little girls? Because that's all they have.

Yes, ma'am.

That's the only consistency they have in their life. So I get

i do understand

you have a different vision

it's happened in my family yes ma'am i do understand

i need to know if your stuff is working

i'm not talking to you about what i've heard i'm talking to you about what i know and what i do know the housing first model failed record funding and record homelessness i don't care what administration it is you would not run your own household budget this way

i get it

you would not run your business this way

you've been in charge for over a year i just wanna see results

you would not run your business way you would not have a business so why is this ok for the american taxpayer it's not ok

ok here's another question another question Totally different topic. We agree that the one of the programs that we think does work is being able to provide vouchers, tenant protection vouchers. Tell me, will HUD issue guidance for these tenant protection vouchers?

Senator Gillibrand, I have talked to my team and they have ensured me that we will take care of those tenants that are in need for their voucher situation.

But will you issue the guidance for the vouchers? Yes or no?

We will take care of those that are in need. My team has assured me.

ok so

and we're happy to work with you if you want more information

i do want more information

i'm telling you we have been assured that we will take care of those tenants that are in need

i want much more information ok so here you go you made a promise you're gonna take care of them

and we will keep it

you wanna take a different tact you don't wanna use the vouchers is what i hear you saying

i didn't say that i did not say that

i need a well let me know cause we would like the vouchers to be used number one and if you're not gonna use them and you're gonna take care of them i would like to know within the next few months that you have done so

done

Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.

Secretary Turner,

Hmm.

you know, I've always been interested in mass timber and across the country we obviously, we've discussed many times insufficient housing and rising cost have created housing challenges and contributed to the growing housing crisis. Tackling housing affordability successfully requires producing more housing, which in turn involves a combination of local zoning decisions as well as scaling up the use of non-traditional building materials, especially when it comes to the use of mass timber. Mass timber multifamily housing is demonstrating an ability to lower construction cost and reduce the time it takes to build which makes an ideal approach for helping increase affordable housing production throughout the country however i'm concerned that most of the thinking around mass timber is happening as a resource management issue. usda forest service and that we are missing an opportunity on the housing side to promote and incorporate the actual use of mass timber and getting this started mister secretary how can hud better collaborate with the forest service university research state forest commission and mostly important builders and developers to make mass timber multi family housing a more mainstream building choice

what Thank you, Chairwoman Hyatt-Smith. And as you uh know, I'm familiar with the mashed timber, the CLT uh project uh product, I'm sorry, and working with the Secretary of Agriculture and Forest Service in your office, uh we're more willing to do so, uh to make sure the use of this mashed timber, which is a great product, uh that I'm familiar with in building multifamily. Uh so happy to hear uh your suggestions and work with USDA uh in their forest service uh program.

Thank you for that, and I, like you, was very proud to join the First Lady in supporting the housing needs of youth exiting foster care, so they're not forced into homelessness. We've seen this so many times across college campuses and many other places. And I would be remiss not to acknowledge the truly transformative role that Chair Collins has played in this initiative in the broader response to youth homelessness ensuring successful partnerships with child welfare agencies providing housing support without creating housing dependency is certainly an approach that we should try and replicate as often as possible. Mister Secretary, your budget request includes proposals to clarify eligibility and to allow for the uh reallocation of funds that no longer have an identified need. Based on the conversations and round tables you have had with youth, Could you explain why these changes are needed?

Yes ma'am, and it has uh been a great privilege to travel around and meet with our foster youth, uh and partner uh with uh yourself and and other members, Senator Collins and the First Lady, uh in taking care of our foster youth as they age out of the foster care systems. As I say, you know, uh many of them end up homeless, a quarter of them, if you will, end up homeless after aging out. And so we wanna make sure that those foster youth that are in need of these housing vouchers, to land on our feet, have them, every state is different, some states use more, uh some use less as you know, uh but we have been working in great collaboration across the country and continue to work with your office and the first lady to make sure that our foster youth are taken care of.

Thank you for that and uh Mr. Secretary as you know, successful affordable housing projects often need to take advantage of multiple funding and financing resources to get the overall are done there's many ways to get there and it can uh look different in every circumstance this could take the form of grants loans tax credits and other incentives mmm as a former executive director of the white house opportunity and revitalization council during president trump's first term mmm i know that you are deeply familiar with one of the better ways to incentivize investments mmm opportunity zones an idea championed by senator tim scott these opportunity zones are almost exclusively census tracts that include low income communities with higher poverty rates lower medium incomes and a greater need for economic revitalization

mmm

mister secretary there are one hundred opportunity zones in mississippi and while i do not expect you to know the particulars of any specific one in my state i am curious to hear from you how an opportunity zone designation in combination with other funding financing um financing sources, can increase the affordability houses supply for states like mine.

Yes, ma'am. Thank you for your question. So, Opportunity Zones, as you know, have been very transformative in our country. And the simple of it is that public-private partnerships really are what make Opportunity Zones successful. And so I'm looking forward to the continuation and the permanency of Opportunity Zones uh in our country, as it pertains to operating businesses and uh creating more affordable homes so public-private partnerships are crucial and key in opportunity zones

thank you for putting those pieces together cause that is so critical as we all know thank you for that answer now senator murray you are recognized for your questions

thank you very much madam chair mr. secretary you know addressing the homeless crisis is a top priority for my state and for many states across the country and i am really concerned because your department has ignored the law and done the opposite. HUD is required to prioritize proven strategies to reduce homelessness, including permanent housing, uh, permanent supportive housing and rapid rehousing. But last year you limited our local government's use of federal grants for those exact proven solutions, at least until a federal judge and Congress stopped you. And in my state, you uh could have cut the federal funding to h- funding to house people who are homeless by more than half. Nationwide, your changes could have put more than a hundred and seventy thousand households on the streets. So we required you to renew grants and get this money out the door. And I have to tell you, communities are still waiting far too long. Can you commit to us that you will move quickly to renew every continuum of care grant that expires this year as required by the language in our twenty-six appropriations bill.

Well, thank you, Senator Mary, Vice Chair Mary. It's good to see you again. And as you know, we have got quarter one and quarter two funds out, and quarter three and quarter four funds also will go out. But I will say,

From last year.

uh, yes ma'am, I will say that we, uh, do have a different approach to this. And I believe that the housing first model is a failed model. I believe that the housing first model, part of it, to house people, uh, is important, but we can't stop there. We have to get the root of housing and homelessness, and that is mental addiction, drug addiction, domestic violence, and things of this nature. So I believe we have to treat people, get them transformed, and back out to a life of self-sustainability.

Well, Mister Secretary, our our bill requires you to get this money out, and I will, just tell you all of the data, all of the research shows that economic factors are driving homelessness. It's not because of Housing First. Um, if every American is feeling the strain on housing, it's really hard to believe that those with the least struggle the most, which is what's happening. And Housing First isn't housing only. There's case management, there is substance use, there's mental health, there's employment services, that's all part of the housing first model too, which you're ignoring. So I think it's really important that we don't demonize the people who are struggling today in this country for very real re reason and work on building more housing. So let me, let me move on because I wanna ask you about another thing. Under your leadership, local governments and nonprofits in my state and actually in the country, have been left to navigate illegal and in many cases really bizarre new grant conditions like requiring a housing provider to say they don't believe trans people exist last year as you know a federal court prohibited you from requiring or enforcing the grant conditions but you are continuing to insert illegal conditions into every grant agreement and entities cannot access these grant funds until agreeing to illegal terms so how exactly is that complying with the court's order

uh we At HUD, man, we will, uh, uh, being in quarters with every order from the court, we will enforce and uphold the law. We will work with Congress, but we also will enforce the Fair Housing Act in the way that we've been called to enforce it, as the laws are written on the book. And that's my job as secretary, to ensure that we are enforcing, uh, the Fair Housing Act.

Well, uh, I just have to tell you, I w- uh, I don't see how these conditions are complying with the court order. So, I have a big disagreement with that. But I also, so, want you to know that our nonprofits who are trying to serve these communities, it is their goal, are wasting a lot of time today trying to understand the shifting legal landscape and the bizarre requirements out there. And you have refused to sign agreements or release notices of funding opportunities for funds that expire five months from now. Um, running down the clock, it's what it feels like to everybody out there, and uh, all of this comes after you pushed out over a third of the hud employees last year so there's less people to be able to get this grants out and it appears to lot of people who are talking to me that the you're breaking the department not making sure that people get housing so this

well if i'm if i may ma'am and i have to correct you we did not push out anyone uh we had uh

ok well look at semantics a lot of people left your department will disagree about why

we had voluntarily it was voluntarily the drp program and people took it the people that wanna be at hud are at hud and i'm happy

Would you agree that you have a lot lot fewer people at HUD to do the work?

to have them but also also the government shutdown has kept us from getting these no-fours-out our team is working tirelessly everyday to get these no-fours-out and we will get them out and we have an adequate sufficient well-working team at HUD across our agency

You have a lot fewer people at your department for whatever

and we're doing we're doing better and more work at HUD we have a winning

reason they wanna talk about it Mr. Secretary and that is causing a lot of people

formula at HUD no ma'am it's not because of

to not get their grants along with all this confusing language. Oh. We have a disagreement. OK. Um, you said in your opening statement the taxpayer dollars are finite.

OK.

But President Trump's budget, his whole budget actually sends war funding through the roof, as we all know. So, instead of blowing a half a trillion dollars more on war funding, I wanna ask you, if we weren't doing that, how many more units of housing could we build?

Vice Chair Murray, the President is very intentional, uh, and very, uh, precise on what his national security directors are. My job is to run HUD.

I, no, yeah, I know, I just

And that's what I'm focused on is housing affordability with all due respect.

Yeah.

The president is clear on what he wants to do. My job is to run HUD and to take down the regulatory environment,

Yeah, I un- I understand that.

which I hear from the industry experts as I travel, the regulations and the regulatory environment are crippling building in our country.

You h- you have a different view than I do, and I just want you to know that if we use that money for housing,

Yeah.

we could build one point one million affordable housing units. That is a huge dent in the seven million units of housing that you yourself say that our country needs. But your budget actually cuts housing, so let me ask it a different way. Can you help more families with housing with eighty-four billion or with seventy-three and a half billion?

Here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. In the previous years before we got here, housing affordability