Hearing on FERC Grid Reform, Demand Flexibility, AI Cooling Bills

The subcommittee will come to order. Uh thank you all for being here, thank you to uh to my fellow senators. This is our first energy subcommittee hearing of this congress. And uh I'd like to thank Senator Gallego for Gallego for helping me put this together. He'll be here momentarily. And uh for other members who are here today who have introduce legislation. The focus of this hearing is on pending legislation. Uh, and we have two expert witnesses from FERC, so thank you gentlemen for being here and we look forward to being able to ask you some questions. Um, I just will say in advance, uh, in the event that, uh, there's any outburst or disruption, uh, I'm gonna stop, uh, the hearing and ask, uh, ask for those folks to be removed. We have the Capra police here. And, uh, and allow we can allow us to continue on to the, the, to the business of the day, but that may take. Uh, today's hearing is focused on improving our nation's grid, uh, to ensure the energy we are producing, but also delivering, uh, electricity to end users in the most efficient and affordable way possible. And today we're in the midst of something really extraordinary, this AI revolution and the re-industrialization that goes hand in hand. These two forces are driving a projected twenty-five percent increase in demand for electric. by twenty thirty which really is antithetical to the kind of affordability and opportunity for Americans that we want. That's why I view AI and energy as two sides of the same coin. They go hand in hand in today's world. And in this global AI race, we really have two choices. Either we win and lead, or we follow. And in order to help win the AI race against China, our primary adversary, we need energy to power this new technology, to power the necessary compute. Today, speed to power is the name of the game. In my home state of Pennsylvania, the energy we are producing is critical to protecting and advancing US economic and national security. And Pennsylvania is the nation's second largest producer of national gas, we're the third largest electricity producer in the country, and the second largest producer of nuclear power. Pennsylvania is providing not only the power for new manufacturing and electricity generation, but also for well-purposed uh, family sustaining jobs, which are obviously so critical. Pennsylvania is also at the cutting edge of a radical transformation. We saw this last year at the Energy and Innovation Summit that I hosted in Pittsburgh where ninety two billion dollars of investment in new data centers and energy and power was pledged by the CEOs around the table at the time, many of them public companies, making these commitments very uh very significant and very. But we know that we need to get these electrons from their generation source to their end users. And we know that Pennsylvanians should not see higher power bills because of data centers or other large load projects. The bills we will examine today look to address speed to power challenges, including unlocking more capacity from our existing grid and avoiding long lead times. And I'm proud to have authored two of the bills we'll consider today. There'll be others, of course. Uh, the first is the Liquid Cooling for AI Act, which I introduced with Senator Chris Coons. This legislation is designed to help ensure American AI infrastructure is the most efficient, resilient, secure, and advanced in the world. There he is, Senator Gallego, how are you?

Good. Good.

Uh, liquid cooling technology can better, I g- I said great words and words of gratitude for you uh putting this together. Of course, I missed him. Uh, can better accommodate advanced chips in AI infrastructure like data centers, while better managing energy consumption and strain on utilities. The second bill is the reconducting Existing Wires for Infrastructure, Reliability and Expansion Act. That's a mouthful, but it's important. It's something I introduced with Senator Welsh, who I think is here as well, and we'll look for- there he, uh, there he is, yeah, look forward to hearing from him in a minute. This bill will cut permanent delays and accelerate the deployment of innovative grid technologies through reconducting. Both of these bills are meaningful steps forward in reducing permanent delays and helping us to win the AI race, but there's still so much work to be done. With that, I look forward to

Thank you, Chairman McCormick, uh, for holding today's hearing. We are here today to consider a handful of bills dealing with our energy system, that system that is very, uh, seeing a lot of significant pressure. Energy demand is rising faster than we've seen in decades, and it's not slowing down any time soon. The US is projected to see a twenty-five percent increase in electricity demand by twenty-thirty driven by the growth of data centers, manufacturing, reshoring, and building, transportation, electrification. In some ways, these are good problems to have because they're signs of a growing economy, but there are also challenges we have to get right. At the same time that we see increased demand, energy is becoming more and more unaffordable. Energy prices rose twice as fast as overall inflation last year, and one in three Americans reported cutting back on food or medicine to cover their utility bills. To make matters worse, gas prices have skyrocketed all over the country because of Trump's war in Iran. And as demand continues to rise, so will costs. If we want to meet this demand without making costs even worse, we need to build more and become more efficient. We need permitting reform to build new lines and increase energy, production, and generation. And as generation increases, our transmission systems will need to be ready to move energy from where it is generated to where it will be used. Because at the end of the day, doesn't matter how many electrons we produce, if we can't get them where they need to go, it makes zero difference. Right now, our grid system is not going to meet those demands. According to the DOE, seventy percent of US transmission lines are over twenty-five years old, which is more than halfway through their operational lifespans, and fifty-five percent of trans- transformers are much older than that. Studies estimate estimate that the national transmission system will need to at least double in size by twenty-fifty in order to maintain reliability and keep costs low. One study found that in twenty-twenty-three insufficient capacity in the grid costs customers eleven point five billion dollars. The grid we have is simply not the grid we need. This isn't just about cost, it's also a public safety issue. An outdated and strained grid makes us more vulnerable to widespread blackouts. And in hot weather states like Arizona, you guys may have heard it gets hot there once in a while, a black- a blackout in a hundred and fifteen degree weather is a matter of life and death for thousands of people. That's why, when I released an energy plan last year, uh, on how we can make energy more feasible, affordable, and reliable for Americans, I made transmission a key pillar. Because a reliable grid is impossible unless we get energy where it needs to go. quickly and when it's needed. All this to say there are strong consensus among the challenges that we face. What we're here to do today is work on solutions that are feasible, productive, and effective, and growing our grid and meeting demand significantly. There are some strong bills in today's uh mark-up to do that. One that I'll be proud to support is the Chairman's Liquid Cooling for AI Act, which would make sure we have cooling systems capable of supporting devant chips manufacturing production, which is a big deal in Arizona, in a way that won't drive up costs for consumers. Another promising bill is the Advantage GE uh, Adv- Advancing Gets Act, which would incentivize developers to bring new grid efficiency tools online and increase our transmission capacity. There are other bills that have questions about how they will be implemented which I'll get to during questioning. And that's ultimately what our goal is here today, figuring out how to move forward and ensure that the best ideas are being put forward and pressure tested by experts, so that when Congress has the opportunity to act, we are ready to do so. Thank you, and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Gallego. Uh, I see Senator Welch is here, which is great, to speak on one of his bills which we're considering today. So I turn to the great Senator from Vermont.

Well, uh, thank you very much, and I'm gonna violate protocol here by saying something nice about the chairman. Um, it's terrific to work with you on this, and here's the serious thing, it's not just the term bipartisan, but the reality is, and this is what Senator McCormick and I realized, you're getting significantly higher uh uh rates in Pennsylvania, we're getting higher rates in Vermont. And a lot of the challenges that we face affect the people we represent. It's not a red state, blue state deal. It's like high electricity bills are tough on whoever it is we represent. And Senator Gallego,

Mm.

you were talking about we need a new, we really have to modernize our trans- our transmission system, but the bill that Senator McCormick and I are promo- promoting says, let's take the system we have and enhance it through technology. There's a lot more, a lot electrons that can flow through what we have. So that is such a less expensive way to increase the access to the electrons that we need. So it's a kind of like, you know, we use the term common sense, but what it is really grounded in, and and Senator McCormick, I so appreciate you, you know, being willing to work with with me, uh, and we share the view that working together we can make more progress. But it's because the identical challenges that those rate payers in Pennsylvania face, are the identical challenges that repairs in Vermont. And this is a real main kind of thing. Take what you have and get more out of it. Uh, use it, and use it more efficiently. So, uh, I so appreciate this committee, uh, partnering with you, Senator McCormick, and thank you so much for the opportunity to be here and promote this legislation.

Thank you, Senator Welsh. I I share that sentiment. Thanks so much for being a a great partner on this. Uh, I'd also like to thank two witnesses. that we have here today. First, we the David Morinoff, the Deputy General Counsel of the Federal E- Energy Regulation Commission, FERC. And the second is Mr. Kail Ayyub, the Director of the Office of Electric Reliability also at FERC. So, uh, what I'd like to do is ask the witnesses to come forward and, uh, we will, uh, a- ask you to each have five minutes and then we'll turn to questions. And for my fellow senators who are here, um, uh, Senator King and Senator Padilla, if, I'm I'm happy to cede my question. My time to each of you after S- Senator Gallego, uh, and you can ask your questions, can I I'll I'll wrap up at the end. OK.

No, it's correct. Thank you.

All right, Mister Morinoff, the floor is yours for five minutes to give your opening statement.

Chairman McCormick, Ranking Member Gallego, and members of the subcommittee. My name is David Morinoff. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today as a member of the staff of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. I currently serve as the commission's Deputy General Counsel. The views I express today are my own and are not necessarily those of the commission or of any individual commissioner. The commission's jurisdiction covers a range of vital energy-related responsibilities. For example, it is the commission's responsibility to ensure that rates for the wholesale sale and transmission of electric as well as the transportation of natural gas by pipeline in interstate commerce, are just and reasonable. The Commission also is responsible for overseeing the reliability of the nation's bulk power system. In addition, the Commission is responsible for siting needed energy infrastructure, including interstate natural gas pipelines and liquefied natural gas and hydroelectric facilities. By fulfilling these responsibilities, the Commission helps to ensure that our country has a reliable and affordable supply of energy. With these responsibilities in mind, Commission Chairman Laura Sweat has recognized that our country is at a historic crossroads and has highlighted three priorities for the Commission. One, keeping the lights on and the pipelines flowing at just and reasonable rates. Two, doing everything within the Commission's power to facilitate the connection of large loads and data centers, while also ensuring that the resulting costs are fairly allocated. And three, maximizing the Commission's ability to encourage and facilitate infrastructure development, which is critical to reliability, safety, and our economy. These responsibilities and priorities both drive the Commission's actions and align with the themes of the proposed bills that are the subject of today's hearing. Spurred in part by the demands of emerging large loads such as data centers, our country is experiencing rapid growth of electric load unlike anything seen in at least several decades. To not only meet that growth, but also to do so in an affordable manner, it is important to interconnect new generation resources expeditiously. The Commission has approved proposals from the grid operators for several large regions of the country, to expedite interconnection for generation resources that are more likely to be constructed and that will meet those regions' respective needs. The Commission also has acted on filings made by all jurisdictional transmission providers, in compliance with the Commission's Order Number twenty-twenty-three, a unanimous Commission final rule on the interconnection of new generation resources. Addressing a related issue, the Commission in December directed the nation's largest grid operator to establish transparent rules to serve data centers and other large loads that are co-located with generation. Those rules will safeguard reliability and protect consumers, impacting over sixty-seven million Americans. The convention also has approved innovative proposals from other grid operators to expedite interconnection of large load additions and associated generation in a manner that accommodates the unique operational demands of large loads while also facilitating reliable interconnection and protecting other transmission customers. The bills that are the subject of today's hearing sound similar themes of reliability and affordability. Some of the bills identify potential reliability challenges, such as what too often have been frustratingly slow processes for the interconnection of new generation resources. Others of the bills, excuse me, underscore the importance of making full use of existing electric infrastructure in support of affordability, including through appropriate application of grid enhancing technologies. If Congress determines that these important issues warrant providing further direction to the Commission, and authorizing

Thank you, Mister Ayub.

Chairman McCormick, Ranking Member Gallego, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Cal Ayub, and I'm the Director of the Office of Electrical Liability at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. The office is responsible for leading the commission's responsibilities in protecting, improving, and overseeing the reliability and security of the nation's bulk power system, through effective regulatory oversight established in the Energy Policy Act of two thousand and five. I am here today as commission's staff witness. My remarks do not necessarily represent those of the commission or any individual commissioner. My testimony summarizes the commission's oversight of the reliability of the bulk power system and recent commission activity implementing that authority. The Energy Policy Act of two thousand five added section two fifteen to the Federal Power Act given the Commission authority over mandatory and forcible reliability standards for the nation's bulk power system, which includes the interconnected US grid, but excludes Alaska, Hawaii, and local distribution systems. Under this provision, the Commission certified NERC as the electric reliability organization responsible for developing reliability standards for commission review, approval, and subsequent enforcement by NERC and its regional entities, subject to Commission oversight. The Commission may approve or remand the reliability standard based on statutory criteria but cannot write or modify the standard itself. Instead, it may direct NERC to develop new or revised standards to address identified reliability gaps. Reliability today is shaped by factors that test resilience. Those include rapid load growth, from large loads such as data centers, a more diverse resource mix that requires accurate modeling and consistent performance expectations, and the increasing frequency of extreme weather events. On top of this is the ever-present and constantly evolving threat landscape, related to cyber security and physical security. Protecting the grid from malicious actors, whether through cyber intrusions, physical attacks on critical facilities, or exploitations in supply chain, remains fundamental to maintaining reliability. The Commission has taken extensive actions over the years to ensure reliability. Since adopting the critical infrastructure standards in two thousand and eight, it has expanded protections against cyber and physical threats, including supply chain risks, network monitoring and incident response. To address extreme weather, the Commission approved new standards, directed improvements to cold weather preparedness and required vulnerability assessments. It also We have also directed NERC to develop new standards for inverter-based resources, which the Commission has since approved. Currently, the Commission is closely following the emergence of large loads. This includes ongoing NERC activity to identify and register large loads for compliance with reliability standards and develop new reliability standards that address their associated reliability risks. Once completed, NERC will submit the reliability standards for commission review and approval. The Commission's core mission, as Chairman Sweat emphasizes, is to ensure reliable, secure, and affordable energy. Her focus on regulatory certainty as essential for timely infrastructure investment, and for enabling large loads to connect to the grid predictably, while maintaining reliability, is reflected in the work that is highlighted today. The legislations under consideration reflect these challenges, highlighting the need for clear planning processes, accurate risk assessments, timely infrastructure development, and strong coordination across stakeholders. The Commission remains committed to working with Congress, NERC, and industry to uphold reliable, resilient, and secure world power system. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Ayub. Um, Senator Gagin, would you wanna go ahead with your questions?

Let me, I will defer to Senator Keene in case he wants to ask questions and and head out, since I'll be here the whole time. Sir King.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Uh, perhaps AI could do a better job of scheduling the Senate. I have three hearings at the very same time, uh, this afternoon, so I appreciate that, uh, for, uh, both of you. Uh, I just wanted to, uh, uh, mention two bills that I think are particularly important. One is, uh, uh, uh, the Advancement of Get's Act, which would basically not mandate, uh, great enhancing technologies but provide an incentive to to counteract the current incentive, which is to build things in the old way. Um, and uh, mister, I do you do you uh, my study indicates that gets can really have a significant up to thirty percent increase in the throughput of the grid, at a much lower cost than an entire rebuild. Is that your uh, is that your judgment?

Thank you for the question, Senator. So, from reliability perspective, uh, grid enhancing technologies provide tremendous value to the grid. Uh, such as uh reconductrin uh optimization and dynamic lane ratings so from reliability perspective i think any more electrons that we can get on the grid is a positive spec- specifically when they are a short-term solution in terms of building new transmission lines

well it's one of the one of the advantages is time

correct

this is something that could be done almost immediately with no permitting and no uh delays secondly it's much cheaper uh and one of the problems that we face is this uh a gigantic expansion of the grid is gonna be expensive, and we're now seeing transmission and distribution costs that exceed the cost of generating electricity. So that's why I think this is uh uh an important initiative, and again what it does is basically provide an incentive uh to the developer of the transmission. Uh the second bill is one that I'm proud to cosponsor with the the chairman, and that is the rewire act, which is about conductors. And um this is a, And this is a carbon-based conductor. As you can see, it's smaller and lighter. It'll carry twice the electricity. And so, this is another way of significantly increasing the grid uh capacity without new poles, without new rights of way, without the the huge expense. Uh, and the the Rewire Act, under the chairman's leadership, would basically say, you don't have to go through a long permitting process because there's no environmental impact of this. uh but it also is a way of of considerably cutting the cost of uh of these new uh of the expansion that we all agree is necessary so um you mentioned reconducting uh expand on that you're welcome to say that i'm right

senator king thank you for the for the question i i would agree that great enhancing technologies which includes reconducting provide tremendous value because as you they are are they are improvements to existing lines on the existing rights of ways. Imagine having a two lane road and you're getting congestion over the years, and you ask yourself can we, you know, rather than build a new highway which is important, can we expand that two lane road to a four lane road temporarily until we address the other issue. So absolutely, it's all of the above, I I'll from reliability's standpoint I will always say getting more electrons through the transmission lines is a is a positive for all of us.

But I do think that that we have to be thinking about cost. uh because electric rates are already going up and and are too high in many regions of the country and New England and uh the expansion of the grid if we don't watch it is going to substantially increase I remember on the day when T and D was thirty percent of the build now it's over fifty percent approaching sixty percent and it's gonna be even more than that unless we adopt the technologies that it will enable us to do this expansion uh without uh burdening the the rate payers and uh that's that's your mission at FERC, is it not?

Senator, thank you. Yes, I agree entirely. The Commission's mission is to uh ensure just and reasonable rates for consumers, and that goes directly to the issues that you've raised.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it, appreciate your uh allowing me to go forward.

Senator, be the end. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman, likewise appreciate the uh accommodation, the flexibility. Appreciate you and the ranking member, uh, calling for, uh, today's hearing. And want to register my support for two of the bills included in this hearing today, Senator King's uh, advancing Get's Act and, uh, of course, Mr. Chairman, Your Rewire Act. Now, these bills, I think, take crucial steps towards modernizing our grid, uh, which is needed and in many places overdue with the advanced transmission, uh, uh, conductors and grid enhancing technologies that Senator King and I talk so As you can tell, he is a big fan. Uh, they also represent key pieces of what needs to be done to build out a reliable transmission system in this country, particularly as the population grows, our economy grows, and the need for electrons continues to grow. Uh, but separately I wanted to highlight the discussion draft on transmission, that I, along with four of my colleagues in this committee, uh, have been circulating to address the transmission system more holistically. The package includes provisions for from both of the bills on the agenda today and i wanted to thank the chair uh again for his uh focus on this topic uh now getting to my first question uh mister i know you've been responding to senator uh king's questions about the benefits of these new technologies i wanted to hear from mr. marinoff on uh any identified barriers from a legal and or administrative perspective to the deployment of reconstructoring or green enhancing technologies Right? If we wanna if we're convinced this is the direction to go, how do we go uh as quickly as possible, one needs to change uh to uh let us do so.

Senator, thank you for that question. Um, I think it's currently less an issue of legal barriers and more about, as Senator King was saying, establishing proper incentives, because there may be reasons why individual utilities in a particular situation may choose to make a different investment rather than utilizing a grid enhancing technology. And I think that some of the bills on today's uh agenda uh seek to address that um challenge to say are there more incentives that we can provide to try to make those technologies more appealing and therefore be able to provide those benefits to rate payers.

OK. And and what specifically may come from Congress slash the federal level versus what States may provide or um in in sort of rate cases that utilities have to go through uh to be able to Again, take these leaps forward.

No, uh, thank you, Senator. Uh, that's that's true that many utilities would have matters both before FERC, as well as before the commission at the state level. Um, I suspect that there is a common interest across those levels, certainly the case at FERC and I know here at the committee. On doing everything we can to ensure that rates are just and reasonable. And if this is one of the steps that we can take to promote that result. Um, hopefully the incentives that we're discussing can drive more effort in that direction, as well as the type of new investment we need

ok uh now moving on to a related topic uh FERC spent the last five years working to accelerate generator interconnection cues through its work on order number twenty twenty three I know you're both very familiar with that I see the heads nodding in the last year FERC also approved regional specific accelerated programs to get new generation connected to the grid quickly all of these programs included energy uh included battery storage uh no this is a subcommittee i'll repeat it at the next opportunity for the full committee i think the chairman would uh appreciate hearing this all of these programs included battery storage all were fuel neutral and all prioritized projects that are commercially available and ready to break ground uh mister is further action to reorder interconnection queues really gonna help move the forward when so much has already been accomplished.

senator thank you uh as you noted the commission has taken many steps in recent years to accelerate interconnection uh both with respect to establishing generic rules for all jurisdictional transmission providers in order twenty twenty three as well as in responding to the individual filings that we have received from individual regions highlighting their needs uh whether there are additional steps to prioritize additional types of resources uh, we would of course defer to Congress and be available to implement whatever Congress may determine as appropriate.

Yeah. Obviously the concern would be when we get to be too prescript prescriptive on the types of projects and we're no longer neutral on that front, uh, that could undermine the, uh, implementation work that's been, uh, underway already in moving us in the right direction. So thank you for your participation today.

Serge Gaillot.

Thank you, Chairman. Uh, it took the Commission more than two years to issue its landmark interconnection order, order number twenty twenty-three. Conversely, the Grid Power Act would require final regulations issued on the bill within a hundred and eighty days of enactment. Could you explain how the Commission could benefit from having more than six months implement this type of rule?

Thank you, Senator, for that question. Um, as you noted, uh, large-scale rulemakings like the Commission's order number twenty-three involve a series of steps, usually including at least the uh issuance of a notice of proposed rulemaking. We often then receive extensive comments back, which we take seriously in developing anything that would be a final rule. Um, it has been the case typically that we have needed longer than that six month period in order to reach a final rule. We also recognize the importance of the types of issues that are being addressed, and that when Congress sets a timeline for takes those very seriously and has a very good track record of meeting the deadlines that Congress establishes.

And then, Mister Yu, does FERC currently have the expertise in data to review proposed agency actions for reliability concerns? And how helpful is it to have NERC NERC, sorry, expertise as part of his reliability assessment process?

Thank you, Senator. Uh, as the Director of the Office of Electrical Reliability, of course, we do have expertise uh and our priority is right now focused on uh managing reliably as a resource makes changes responding to extreme weather and protecting the grid from physical and cyber attacks uh in terms of cross agency expertise i think i would uh if it's ok with you senator i may defer to to the to mr. mourneau of the deputy general counsel

sure thank you um both with respect to our interaction with other agencies and our interaction with nerk Um, some of the depth of studies, it is particularly beneficial to have that type of, um, draw on the expertise and in particular the computing power that may be available. Uh, some of the studies that were described in the bill that you're referencing, we believe that NERC would have the capability of doing, perhaps the National Labs would have the capability of doing. Uh, FERC would very much benefit from that information, but would not currently have the capability of doing those studies ourselves.

Right. Uh, Mister Morinoff, the FERC's chairman,

Um, thank you, Senator. I I'd agree that the more certainty that we can provide

Mister, are you turning back to the Grid Power Act? Can you explain whether prioritizing certain forms of generation over others could impact grid liability or energy affordability in the long run?

Thank you, Senator. Again, as the Director of the of Office for Electrical Liability, focusing strictly on uh cyber and physical security for the base users extreme weather. i just wanna get clarify senator is your is your question specifically to generate the and the connection reform?

uh let's see generally to speaking about um sorry i'm actually backing up here no prioritizing certain forms of generation in in terms of generation when it comes to renewables versus carbon base versus nuclear you know, in terms of that we, I believe personally that the government should be agnostic about it, right? Try to figure out how to get as many electrons on a grid as fast as possible,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

and move them from everywhere. And wanna uh want to hear your assertion whether you agree that there should be an agnostic approach to power generation.

Thank you for your, for the clarification, Senator.

Yep.

Absolutely. I, the the commission is technology neutral, has always been, and the commission doesn't pick winners or losers, which specific technology should be considered uh under any act. So.

OK. And then the reason I bring that up is because we have seen uh this administration decide that uh that carbon based energy is better quote unquote than renewables and I think at some point, you know, when it comes to being able to generate and then move it, sometimes it might be actually better for us to be using renewables and cheaper. And sometimes it is good to use carbon and I'd be fine for that too, but I wanna make sure that it's being decided on an agnostic basis that is going to be the most important thing I think to bring down the cost for the consumer. And, uh, I yield back.

Thank you. Uh, Mr. Morinoff, uh, let me ask, uh, let me g- begin by asking about the rewire act that we talked about a a few minutes ago. As we know, reconductoring allows us to increase capacity using existing transmission lines of rights of way. Based on Ferg's experience, how much additional capacity can reconductoring make available on the existing system? And to what extent are existing utilities already using this approach?

Um, thank you, Senator. I can talk about that broadly, and then my colleague, Mister Ayoub, may have some additional more technical thoughts.

Great.

Um, but I I I think the observation is correct that there that there is great potential from the application of reconductoring and other advanced technologies uh in order to get more out of our existing system. Um, although I don't have a particular

But rare or common at this point?

Uh, I I don't have a number uh to offer. I'm sorry.

Okay. Mister.

Thank you, Senator. I I don't have a percentage of how how the percent of utilities adopted them, but but I know uh they're becoming more popular amongst uh For the obvious reason Senator where we're pushing more electrons to uh the transmission lines, without building new lines.

Great. Uh, and this question can go, I, to both of you, I think. Um, we're seeing renewed growth, uh, as, as I m- mentioned in my opening statement, across, uh, in terms of electricity demand, across a number of sectors. Uh, how is FERC assessing the implications of that growth for grid lab- grid lo- reliability? And what trends are you seeing in the interne- interconnection queue today?

So, I can speak from the reliability side and I'll turn over to my colleague so so thank you senator for the question so we work uh as you are aware

great

the nurk north electrical liability corporation issues a long-term liability assessment every year that looks ten years ahead and and and sort of looks at the entire uh continent and through that assessment really uh looks at where there is generation deficiencies transmission issues and they come up with a map every year as a snapshot so we work very closely with nurk as we're looking at uh long-term reliability assessment. And through that, I, before uh my colleague picks up, the commission has, does have some uh, has approved some processes with which uh, Mister Mournoff would go into detail. But from our standpoint, uh working with NERC, we do identify through uh, through studies uh, et cetera, where those reliability gaps are.

Um, thank you, Senator. And with respect to interconnection in particular, I think that the slow pace of interconnections that it would sometimes take, seven eight years for a proposed project to move through the interconnection queue always was a problem for drawing the investment that was needed as the pace of load growth has increased so dramatically that it's become not just a frustration but a really dramatic problem in terms of having the adequate generation resources available um i think the commission's actions over the past several years reflect several steps to address that both in terms of establishing more effective baseline rules through order number twenty twenty three and then also recognising that individual regions face different challenges and looking at the proposals that they have brought to FERC to say what are the resources they need what are those resources characteristics and trying to look for ways in the short term to further expedite the processing of those generating resources um one other just observation in that respect is that above and beyond what the commission has already improved there are some transmission providers that are also

Very good. Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, mister, I I wanna ask you about the legislation I introduced with Senator Coons, the Liquid Cooling for AI Act. As we know, data centers are crucial to winning the AI race with China. Data centers' annual energy use could grow from four point four percent of the country's total annual electricity consumption. to twelve percent by twenty twenty eight. Just around the corner. What changes has FERC observed in the scale and pace of large loads interc interconnection request and is the current system keeping pace with that demand, or do you see strains emerging?

Thank you for your question, Senator. So I'll start with uh with you first, uh with the legislation. Uh uh I understand it's it's directed at the DOE, but I did want to comment that any, while the commission is technology neutral, any technology that can uh lower the the consumption that they use from daily centers would be would be a a good thing for the grid uh in terms of large load connections and application to the the commission as as my colleague mr. mournoff has said you know there there has been some orders that the commission has issued specifically uh

mmm

the show cause orders but i can turn it over to mr. mournoff for details on the orders themselves i wanna make sure i'm careful with what's ex parte and what's not yet

Thank you, Senator. Um, the Commission has already taken some steps recognizing that the issues about exactly what will be for jurisdictional and what will be state jurisdictional is not entirely clear but the Commission has taken actions within our jurisdiction to ensure that there are greater clarity about the rules uh as to at least the context of large loads and the context of co-location with generation and I think that that clarity will help to provide greater investment uh incentives as well.

Very good. Gentlemen, is there um anything either of you uh would like to offer in addition to the the questions you were asking or your initial statements?

Um, Senator, just the uh, again to thank you for the opportunity and for the leadership that this committee is demonstrating on these really important issues for very much values the opportunity to be part of that continuing discussion with you and with the committee.

Great. Senator, do you have any more questions?

OK.

Yeah.

And and I'll say thank you so much, Senator, uh, it's a privilege to be here, my family's here to me just to to to to come watch today. And in terms of offering our our office,

Yeah.

uh, I'm sure I'll speak for David as well, always uh available for technical assistance on future bills as well.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah, very good. I I just wanna um thank you both, thank you for your families for uh being here to support you. Uh, I wanna recognize each member in attendance and have them noted by the clerk. And I really wanna thank you for for coming, we're uh trying to get a lot done. in this area and your expertise is uh is very helpful. Uh official questions for the record, I don't think we had any questions for the record, but uh all that, those questions and statements for the official record are due by six p m today, on Wednesday, April twenty second, twenty twenty six. And with that, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you.

Thank you.