Business meeting to consider an original bill entitled, "Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act".

The committee will come to order. We're meeting today to consider the Chairman's Mark of the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act or the TAS Act as modified. To begin with, I will briefly explain how ranking member Wyden and I plan to proceed through today's mark-up. We will each deliver an opening statement. Other members are then welcome to deliver opening statements of up to two minutes each. Once opening statements have been given, we will introduce the panel, describe modifications to the Chairman's Mark, and allow members to ask questions of the panel. After that, we will consider amendments to the modified mark. We will then vote on whether to report the modified mark. If a quorum for a vote is not present, we will vote when we have a quorum. We will let offices know of the time to vote to make sure that we do have a quorum. And I believe we are hopeful that will be here as soon as we wrap up the comments of others on the amendments.

True.

With that we will turn to opening statements, and I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Every year, tens of millions of Americans do their best to comply with our tax laws. They prepare their returns, wait for refunds, and attempt to respond to notices, only to find that the system is more complex and less responsive than it should be. Today we begin to address those issues through our consideration of the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act. or the TAS Act. This bipartisan bill modernizes and streamlines IRS operations, strengthens taxpayer rights, and delivers a more taxpayer-first system. It reflects years of bipartisan efforts to translate stories of casework frustrations and tangible fixes, designed to make the IRS work more efficiently for the American people. Thank you to ranking member Wyden for his partnership with me in l- this legislation.

Thank you.

And to the members of this committee on both sides of the aisle who shared their ideas and proposals, many of which are incorporated in this bill before us. The TAS Act incorporates more than sixty provisions focused on improving taxpayer experience. Senators Young, Warnock, Cassidy and Warner championed provisions to improve IRS customer service by requiring the IRS to scanning, paper-ta- filed tax returns, on-line accounts, and communications tools, including on-line dashboards and call-back technology. These reforms would slash wait times for Americans who often otherwise wait weeks for mail or spend an afternoon on hold. Senators Blackburn and Cortez Mastel spearheaded a provision to protect taxpayers from penalties due to the IRS delays in electronic filing. by extending the statutory mailbox rule to ex- to electronic submissions and payments. This change would treat a return or payment electronically sent on the due date as timely, just as it is for paper sent through the mail. Senators Scott and Hassan led provisions to strengthen fair judicial review by clarifying the tax court's limited authority to grant relief from final decisions, and allowing courts to consider all relevant evidence in innocent spouse cases. Senators Grassley and Wyden drafted provisions that would strengthen the IRS whistle-blower program. Senator Barrasso is driving a provision that protects taxpayers' rights by requiring the IRS to notify taxpayers before the agency contacts third parties to obtain information regarding the taxpayer. Senator Marshall is heading a provision that unlocks low-income providing key resources for low income taxpayers. And Senators Cornyn and Lujan led a provision expanding access to the tax court's small case procedure which would give more taxpayers a streamlined and off- and affordable forum for resolving tax disputes with the IRS. In addition, Senators Thune, Blankford and Daines have amend led amendments that have been adopted in the modified mark before, Senator Thune's amendment extends key tax deadlines for farmers and fishermen. Senator Lankford's amendment clarifies a tax exempt organization's right to appeal adverse rulings of the status to the IRS Office of Appeals. And lastly, Senator Daines championed an amendment that enhances accountability by increasing criminal and civil penalties for the unauthorized disclosure of taxpayer information while also insuring IRS contractors who willfully cause data breaches are appropriately penalized. These are just a sample of the many practical taxpayer-focused reforms included in the TASS Act. The bill has drawn support from our current and former national taxpayer advocates, and I note that our current national taxpayer advocate is here with us today, as well as many practitioners who work within the system every day. Such broad consensus signals that we are on the right path to better tax administration. Americans are duty-bound to comply with our tax laws. The federal government, in turn, should administer a tax system that is transparent, efficient, and fair. Before I turn to Ranking Member Wyden, I want to thank Tom Bartol, JCT's Chief of Staff, and the JCT staff who supported the committee's work on the TASS Act and helped members prepare for today's mark-up. Your hard work has been indispensable, once again, in bringing this bipartisan product before the committee today. With that, I now recognize Ranking Member Wyden for his opening remarks.

Thank you very much, uh, Mister Chairman, and you have laid it out well and, uh, I'm gonna be very brief and just reminisce for a moment about how we got to this day. because my take is we worked on this when i was chairman of the committee we've worked on it when you were chair of the committee and at all times we've said look sweat equity is bipartisan when you're trying to wring out inefficiency from the tax code so this is an important uh uh development and today we take big steps to make some history in the area of tax policy and get us on the road to wringing out some of the inefficiency in the tax code. The updates will help insure that refunds get out the door on time, they're gonna improve customer service, they're gonna make it easier for taxpayers to get help during filing season. One of the most absurd aspects of the tax code is that it's complexity forces millions of Americans to turn to paid tax return preparers every year. And this is part of the concern that we have about two tax systems, one for working people, one for the ultra-wealthy. Unlike the ultra-wealthy, most people can't afford to hire armies of accountants and lawyers to navigate the system. There isn't a single law on the books to ensure that these prepaid preparers actually know what they are doing, following the law. And we're now making a bipartisan effort to change that. The results in many of these prep services is you've got something that's not worth the paper, it's written on. Oftentimes returns get filed late or incorrectly. And the worst part is taxpayers might not even realize they've been ripped off, until it's way late. Then the next thing you know you're being hit by a costly and time-consuming audit. This bill takes important steps. to crack down on these shady tax prep schemes that prey on families uh that uh are making a quick buck. Millions of Americans struggle right now to afford the skyrocketing cost of rent gas and groceries. The last thing they need is to be hit by costless fees and penalties by the IRS. The bill in my view is especially important because it reduces the financial burden on low-income families. it makes it easier for them to get filing assistance and ensure that ultra low income taxpayers get streamlined access so they can get the full earned income tax credit. The bill is a good first step to delivering relief to low income folks. We know we've got a lot to do in the future to ensure fairness to a system that those at the very top have spent years working to rig in their favor and making it harder for everybody else. now i'm gonna shift gears and wrap up here in a minute but i see our friend tom bartold who has done yeoman work on the joint committee on taxation and the senate legislative uh council for all the work they did to help us translate that sweat equity into results this morning the theme of today's meeting is streamlining the tax filing system for those who are hardworking and protecting them from predatory schemes and audits As of right now, everybody in America is subject to audit except one family. That is the Trump family. All thanks to the tax audit immunity deal that Donald Trump got out of his own administration. The immunity deal, in my view, is a brazen abuse of the nation's laws in a system that forces everybody else to play by the rules. It amounts to the worst of double standards. It's a crooked double standard that benefits one person, the president and his family. It's clear that Donald Trump, his family and his business associates will do virtually anything to use the federal government and taxpayer dollars to enrich themselves and operate under a separate set of rules. Never has it been more clear with this example of the fact that there are rules for people at the top, and there are rules for everybody else. The ultra-wealthy can game the system with armies of a accountants and lawyers, and everybody else has to play by the rules and pay their share. I take it as an admission of guilt when it comes to tax cheating that the Trump family has been stuffing every dollar they can and put it in their pockets, but they won't face accountability as long as Donald Trump can bleed the IRS dry of staffing and resources needed to go after tax cheats. Later this morning the committee is gonna have the opportunity to vote on an amendment that I will offer with the support of every member on our side of the aisle every single one who's here uh will join me in uh making sure that uh you know we end this uh uh amendment uh process that uh the trump people have used to engage in corruption and permanently instead we would ban the irs and treasury department from entering into agreements like the one that they did uh already uh for the future every member in this room is going to have a choice we're gonna have a choice to be able to say we disagree and we disagree strongly with this amendment that benefits one person, the president of the united states. We want a tax system. Bill Bradley who sat on this committee said it very well for years, he said we want a tax system that gives everybody in America the chance to get ahead. With this legislation we have that opportunity. Mr. Chairman, I really appreciate working with you, we worked on lots of stuff, we work on timber stuff, we work on tech stuff. This is one of the highlights of our time in public service.

Thank you, Senator Wyden, and I will now recognize any other members who may wish to make an opening statement. I remind members to please limit your remarks to two minutes, and of course we will gladly put any opening statements into the record for you. Senator Warr-

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I'll speak quickly. Um, every year millions of Virginians file their taxes, and too many face the same reality. Sometimes it's hours spent on hold just to get a simple answer about a refund. Sometimes a missing notice means the re- refund is delayed literally for months. Today, I want to talk about some of the common sense reforms in this bill that will help change that. Bill requires IRS to build a real-time public dashboard, showing call volumes, backlogs, and wait times. When the IRS falls beyond behind processing returns or letters, they'll have to say so publicly, within a week, eliminating guessing games for taxpayers wondering why their refunds haven't arrived. The bill modernizes the tools like Where's My Refund? and the IRS online account, so that taxpayers can see exactly what's holding up the return and what they knew, need to do to fix it. The bill pushes the IRS towards universal callback technology. So Virginians and Americans won't have to set on hold for an hour just to reach a real person. And it expands on-line accounts so taxpayers and their accountants can pull up notices, letters, and past returns directly when they need them. Finally, it requires the IRS to tell taxpayers facing economic hardships about better options to tackle their tax liabilities like reduced payment plans or having their debt marked as currently uncollectible. instead of steering them into installment agreements that can't afford. This is an example of bipartisanship with all the bickering back and forth. This is actually gonna make life a little bit easier for Americans. And I'm proud to support it and proud to yield back ten seconds.

Thank you, Senator Warner. Senator Lankford.

Mr. Chairman, thank you. Uh, thanks for pulling this hearing together to be able to work on these issues. Uh, on it, there is an amendment that has been included in the bill that I just want to be able to highlight, and that deals with nonprofits. Uh, there are so many people that consider non-profits exactly like other small businesses, and I always smile and say most of them want to operate like an other small business, but they're dominantly run by volunteers, uh, who struggle with their own life and their own work, and they set aside time to be able to also be involved in non-profits. Non-profits are the third largest employer in our country, uh, but they have unique dynamics, uh, just in operation. Uh, non-profits right now, Uh, it is not guaranteed that if they lose their non-profit status, they have the opportunity to be able to appeal that, and to be able to challenge that, and just get information about why, and what did I do wrong, and what did I miss, and what paperwork did I not get in on time. Now, it's practice now that it's commonly done, but doesn't have to be done. Uh, this actually makes sure that it continues to be done. Uh, it was just fourteen years ago that w- this committee and the Ways and Means Committee in the House and other committees were dealing with an IRS that was denying access to nonprofits, getting a a decision at all when Lois Lerner was leading that area. This just says we're gonna have an an an IRS that permanently says they're gonna be fair, neutral to all uh nonprofits, and that if there is an issue with a nonprofit in their status, they have the opportunity to be able to appeal that and make sure that they get their day to be able to also get an answer as well. So grateful that we're recognizing nonprofits in their unique uh, relationship with their volunteers and leadership, and how difficult it is in day-to-day and how they wanna just get answers in a timely basis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Any other senators? Senator Smith is next in line.

Thank you. Thank you so much, uh, uh, Chair Crapo and Ranking Member Wyden. I wanna just thank you and also your staffs for doing the nitty-gritty detailed work that's required to figure out how to make the IRS work better for regular people. Um, and I'm also very grateful that two amendments that I worked on were included in the bill. Thank you for that. The first I'll just highlight briefly is Thune-Smith Amendment number one I worked on with, uh, Senator, uh, Thune, and this just very simply, um, lines up the deadlines for farmers filing their taxes with everyone else filing their taxes, which is gonna be a big boost to, um, farmers and producers around the country,

Without objection.

Tha- thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, the second, uh, amendment that I want to highlight briefly is my amendment that would require the IRS to report on how they're tracking the physical documents that taxpayers um, submit to them. Um, and this comes directly from feedback that I've gotten from my constituents in Minnesota I'm sure many of your case work staff have heard the same thing. Basically people submit hard copies of their material to the IRS and then they're in the c- situation of having to submit them over and over again, because the IRS can't keep track of these hard paper, um, documents. It's a huge waste of time and incredibly frustrating for people. So I wanna, uh, thank my very talented uh casework team and especially Miranda, Morgan, Lilla and Katie Van Heren for raising this issue and helping us work to um get a resolution in this bill. Um it will make a big difference to people once we um get this done. So thank you so much to both the chair and ranking member and I look forward to supporting this bill.

Thank you. Uh Senator Catwell.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, thank you for working in a bipartisan fashion to pull together uh some common sense changes But I wanna just point out that this is only half the story of what we need to be talking about. Making sure that the IRS is funded and staffed is essential to having a fair system. And we look at the cuts that came through earlier this year. It means we're eliminating trained and experienced revenue agent agents who can audit and do complex returns, obviously address the concerns of the public, who are responsible for bringing in ninety-six percent of the country's total revenues. Those cuts won't produce savings, they just actually cost money. The Yale Budget Lab estimated last year's cuts resulted in eight hundred and sixty-one billion in less revenue, the staffing cuts. So if we're going to get our fiscal house in order, the least we can do is fund our own tax accounts receivable function. And I hope we can work together on this in in the future in making sure that our constituents get timely information. Also, I want to speak briefly about the Wyden amendment, We do need to close loopholes, Mr. Chairman. We can't have anybody who has a loophole just because they've been given permission uh by someone to ignore the tax laws without consequence. My constituents were outraged by the one point eight billion slush fund, but the offer of blanket immunity from any tax enforcement claims was especially appalling. Our office has received more than seven thousand messages from constituents expressing their opposition and anger. over a hundred and sixty five million individual tax returns were filed in twenty twenty five approximately four million from the state of washington we need to make clear to those law abiding the citizens that the well connected are not above the law and they don't get a free pass when it comes to compliance with our tax laws thank you

thank you senator grassley thank you

uh chairman cravo and ranking member wyoming thank you for your your and your stance hard work on the irs

I just I agree.

As you all consider today,

So, open your hand.

the Taxpayers Assistance and Service Act continues the long tradition of this committee, uh working on a bipartisan basis to improve tax administration and to strengthen taxpayers' uh rights. Uh the bill includes improvements to the IRS whistleblower program that I authored along with ranking member Wyden. These provisions will ensure that those that risk their career to blow the whistle on corporate tax cheats can be confident that their identity will be protected and will receive fair reward in a timely manner. And why do their identities need to be protected? Because they're really patri- patriotic people when they're uh telling us about wrongdoing. uh in a in a government or law is being violated but instead they're treated like skunks at a picnic uh by the bureaucracy under either a republican or a democrat administration so this program the whistleblower uh uh irs program uh really works it has brought in eight billion dollars to the us treasury i am confident that these reforms will lead to even greater collections moving forward. The bill also includes an amendment that I worked with Senator Hassan that uh will improve tax compliance and help the IRS combat tax refund fraud. The joint committee on taxation estimates that this provision will save the taxpayers three hundred and eighty-five million dollars. I'm also pleased to see the Chairman's Mark incorporated an amendment that i co-spotted with senator thune to align certain tax filing rules for farmers and fishermen with the regular uh april fifteenth tax filing deadline

right

this change will eliminate a lot of headaches the current rule creates for farmers and their tax preparers again thank you both for holding this bipartisan markup

thank you very much Next I have on the list uh Senator Welch. I don't have anybody else on the Republican side that I'm aware of who wants to make an opening statement at this point. Someone will go to Senator Welch and then we will proceed with the mark-up.

Um Uh thank you very much and I want to thank you, Mister Chairman, and uh you, Ranking Member Wyden uh to have this important legislation uh that's we're gonna act on today and it's gonna make significant significant improvements. I have two bipartisan provisions in here that I worked on with Senator Marshall and it's really a pleasure to be able to work together, both sides of the aisle. I do wanna say something, though, that's of enormous concern and disappointment to me. Uh, and I say this as the most junior member of this committee. We've not had any discussion about the thirty-nine trillion dollar national debt. The clock is ticking. We've not had any serious progress on dealing with the threat to entitlements. which are so profoundly important to the well-being of the American people, social security and Medicare. We have not really done anything about the incredible tax gap in the loss of thirty-one thousand IRS employees. You know, I sought to get on this committee because it's considered to be a big deal. But how can it be a big deal if what we know are the existential threats to the well-being of this country the debt entitlements fair taxes with a well-staffed and respected irs we don't do anything so i think we both parties can take equal credit for our failure to do our job but i have to tell you as one senator on this committee it astonishes me that on the major issues that everybody knows are out there, we don't do anything. So my hope is that the spirit of bipartisanship that we have in this bill, and thank you, Mister Chairman, and thank you, ranking member, we start applying to things that are of existential concern to the people of this country. Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Welch. And now, uh, we will proceed to the walkthrough on the modifications of the mark and answer any questions. As is the case when the committee considers tax legislation, we have with us the Chief of Staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation, Tom Barthold, and he will c- wa- walk through the modifications. Uh, Tom, I ask we I note to to you that we have a quorum present and so I'd ask you to go through your summary quickly so we can get to the actual business.

Uh, thank you, Mister Chairman, and I will try a quite a bridged uh version. The members have before them Joint Committee Documents JCX forty-three, which describes the underlying and on green sheets JCX forty-five and forty-six which describe the Chairman's modification and the estimated budget effects of the bill as modified. Uh the Chairman's modi- uh modification offers two modifications to provisions in the underlying mark and six additions. The uh modifications, the first modification clarifies and expands the definition of electronic filing identification numbers. The second modification clarifies the right of the appeal that is established in the underlying mark, that it is also generally available with respect to determinations to deny or revoke tax exempt status. The additions to the uh mark, as made by the modification, uh the first is under present law there are special uh rules filing dates for farmers and fishermen. It extends those dates from March first under present law would establish um April fifteenth. Uh, The second uh addition is it requires the secretary to report uh uh the IRS's practices for taxpayer uh document tracking so that the committee can uh uh learn and hopefully make improvements in that area. The third addition is that it accelerates the filing dates for information returns that the IRS receives of returns that the taxpayer already has received. These uh information returns are with respect to dividends, interest, retirement plan distributions, IRA distributions, certain miscellaneous payments, social security and railroad retirement fund distributions, and payments uh made under third party uh uh network payments. Uh the fourth addition uh increases the criminal and penal uh and civil penalties for unauthorized disclosure, extending it to uh uh contractors. The fifth uh addition relates to individuals who file a broad clarifying authority with respect to uh assessment of penalties and establishes new procedures to ensure pre-assessment uh uh review and the uh final addition made by the uh uh Chairman's modification is to establish within the IRS a business child care liaison, the general purpose of which is to foster increased employer provided child care facilities recognizing the benefits provided under the code. Uh that concludes my brief uh uh description. Happy to answer any questions that the members might have.

Thank you, uh, Mister Barthold. In addition to Mister Barthold, we have Mike Gold from the majority staff, Eric Lopresti from the minority staff, uh, also here to answer questions. We've also been been joined by, uh, Don Snyder and Miss Fritz. And we, uh, appreciate all of you being here to respond to any questions if the senators have them. do any of the senators have questions of the panel pardon me

we don't want to talk about other topics

oh we're gonna get to other topics

we got two topics

Seeing that there are no questions for the panel, uh we will now proceed to amendments to the modified mark. A quorum for the purpose of conducting business being present under the committee rule uh That being the case, the modification is hereby incorporated into the chairman's mark and the chairman's mark as modified is now open for debate and amendment. Does any senator wish to offer an amendment? Senator Cortez Masto.

Thank you. First of all, let me thank you again, like my colleagues, thank the Chairman and the Ranking Member. This is uh a great piece of bipartisan work, uh and I'm proud to be a part of it. I thank you for also incorporating the Daines-Cortez Amendment number one, that increases the criminal and civil penalties for unauthorized disclosure of taxpayer information, as well as the Cortez Masto Blackburn Amendment number one, which addresses the need for electronic filing identification number prevent against fraud. I ask that we call up um Cortez Master Amendment number two. Ma- so let me let me talk a little bit about this and again I I thank you for allowing me to bring this forward. This amendment is very simple, it restores the taxation of gambling losses to the standard set by the twenty seventeen Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Historically uh Americans who lose money while gambling have been able to duck deduct one hundred percent of their losses from their annual taxes. So, as long as they don't deduct more than their winnings. Uh, that has been the tradition. This ensures the tax code accurately reflects their income and their ability to pay. Unfortunately, under the one big beautiful bill, it contained a provision that limited that deduction to ninety percent. This creates an arbitrary cliff that can result in an effective tax rate of more than hundred percent for some players. Needless to say, this deduction limit has a major impact, not only on our industry and and workers and uh individuals in Nevada, but it's across the country as well. If we don't fix this issue, we will see lost jobs and economic growth, and many Americans will owe a tax bill on income that they do not have. That's why the solution is this amendment, which offers a garnered support uh from both Chairman Smith of House Ways and Means, as well as many bipartisan members,

Thank you, Senator Cortes Masto. I appreciate your withdrawing the amendment and can we will work with you on addressing this as we move forward. Uh, next we have Senator Bennett.

Thank you, Chairman. Appreciate your holding this hearing. Uh, I'm offering Bennett amendment number one. Today we're about to pass one of the largest IRS reform packages in decades. It will go a long way toward modernizing our tax collection process and setting our new safeguards for taxpayers. But Americans are still still denied a tax filing experience that is available to citizens in almost every country. every other country in the industrialized world. Almost three quarters of the OECD countries, places like Australia, Belgium and France have instituted some form of pre-population for their tax returns. In these places it can take as little as ten minutes to file your return, with only a few clicks of a button. In Estonia it can take as little as three minutes to file file your taxes. This is an idea that has a long bipartisan history. President Reagan championed it back in nineteen eighty five,

Mm.

describing world where you quote, would automatically receive your refund or a letter explaining any additional tax you owe without even having to fill out a return in his vision. In some ways, his vision was even more ambitious than what any of us would imagine today. My amendment would bring us one step closer to that reality. It would require the IRS to determine how to implement pre-populated returns for certain income and then to launch a pilot program doing so. I think every American would agree that we need to make our tax system easier, faster, and more comprehensible. I think every American would take the option, if they had the choice of spending just a few minutes on their taxes. Today's mark-up addresses a number of important concerns. And I'm glad to see it put forward with several of my bills, including eliminating installment fees for low-income individuals trying to pay what they owe, and more protections for taxpayers as they nav- navigate the process. And I think going forward, Mister Chairman, this committee should be focused on ideas like pre-population that makes our tax system just a little bit more like the rest of the industrialized world, and a little bit less miserable for the American people. I look forward to working with my colleagues to create the kind of tax system that Coloradans and people all over the country deserve. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I withdraw my amendment.

Thank you, Senator Bennet, for withdrawing the amendment, and uh again, I commit to work with you as we try to achieve these this objective as well. Uh next we have Senator Warren.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, and I want to thank both the Chairman and the Ranking Member for your leadership on the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act. This is a bill that is full of common sense changes to improve the taxpayer experience.

Say what?

It cracks down on paid tax preparers who scam Americans. It strengthens the independent national taxpayer advocate. And it helps taxpayers get faster refunds. I am also proud to have introduced the IRS Math Act along with Senator Cassidy, um, which was originally part of this bill before we got it signed into law last year. So it's already made it on through. But if we truly wanna make tax filing accessible and convenient, we gotta do more. So today I'm offering an amendment to bring back the direct file program and to make it permanent. During the Biden administration, the IRS ran a pilot program for direct file, which allowed taxpayers to file their taxes online, for free, and directly with the government, and people loved it. Ninety-four percent of taxpayers who used the program described their experience as excellent or above average. But giant tax prep companies like Intuit lobbied to kill direct file because it threatened their profits. After Intuit donated a million dollars to Trump's inauguration fund, Trump cancelled the program. It is corruption, plain and simple. And my amendment would reverse that, that shameful decision, and make direct file law of the land. We also cannot stand by when the Trump administration just cut a deal giving Donald Trump a get-out-of-jail-free card for potentially cheating on his taxes. No other taxpayer ever has gotten this kind of a deal,

OK. Yeah, sure.

and a federal judge has already called it illegal. Any serious effort to make the IRS work better for American taxpayers must ensure that everyone is treated fairly and equally under the law, and I am proud to cosponsor ranking member Wyden's amendment to bar the Treasury Department and IRS from enforcing this corrupt deal. This committee should not consider our work done here until we adopt it. And while I support this committee's work to make the IRS work better for taxpayers, I cannot support a bill that rubber stamps Donald Trump's corruption. Under Donald Trump, the IRS keeps working better and better for Donald Trump. and for his billionaire buddies, and worse and worse for everyone else. Congress needs to stand up and put a stop to it. After speaking with the ranking member, Wyden, I will not ask for a vote on my direct file amendment. I yield back to the chair.

Mr. Chairman,

Senator Wyden.

just very briefly, I share Senator Warren's views on direct file and just would point out um for a quick minute that there is history in this committee of doing this on a bipartisan basis for several years i see my friend senator tillis uh they were senators who sat in those two seats at the end who worked with uh myself and others to do this in a bipartisan way my only statement before we go to uh senator smith who i think is is next is i hope that this committee next year will work in a bipartisan way to get direct file it's right thing to do most of the western industrialized nation is doing it and let's figure out a way to get it done next year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Wyden, and thank you, thank you, Senator Warren. Uh, we will next move to Senator Smith.

Uh, thank you so much, Mr. Chair and ranking member. I would like to offer and then withdraw my amendment, Smith number two, which deals with uh coerced debt. So, coerced debt occurs when an abuser uses fraud or duress or manipulation to take out debt in the name of a person that they are abusing, their survivor. Basically what they do is they force another person to borrow money they can't afford, Not an underage mom, an underage dad.

Mm. Mm.

or the abuser takes out a loan or opens a new credit A son. I'll say a son is better for that. card in the survivor's name without even telling them. And this of course happens in situations where there is domestic abuse or human trafficking or even identity theft. And so I've heard from Minnesotans who have survived domestic violence and then they've had their financial stability shattered, um because they have to start all over again fighting off debt from Well, they're all sort of debt collectors as they're trying to rebuild their credit. Um, and so Minnesota, along with several other states, have actually passed laws to protect survivors, um, and give them help with course to debt forgiveness, but then come to find out that when this fraudulently incurred debt is forgiven by the courts or canceled by a creditor, a new problem is created, which is that in some cases survivors are then required to pay taxes on the forgiven debt because the IRS recognizes it as income. So my amendment would have required the IRS to issue guidance to resolve this uh confusion and um, I think it would be a really good thing. I understand that we will not be including it. I know that there are questions raised about how we could um um implement this. So I hope that we can continue to work on this with my colleagues um and fix this issue for people in the future. Thank you, Mister Chair.

Thank you, Senator Smith, and again thank you for withdrawing the amendment. We will continue to work with you on this. And uh next is Senator Wyden.

Thank you very much uh, Mister Chairman, I call up Wyden amendment number one. How's that? Objection. There's there is there is conflict here with the

Without objection.

with with with the drawing of a conflict. Okay. Colleagues. I'm gonna throw that down once. Nobody. No. nobody, and especially the president, should get special treatment under America's tax laws. This amendment tears up Donald Trump's illegal sweetheart deal and permanently bans the IRS and the Treasury Department from ever inking a deal like this again in America. It would also empower a future administration to take action against anyone who benefits from this fundamentally corrupt scheme, this amendment gives this morning, both sides of the aisle, a chance to rein in this lawlessness. A vote against this amendment, in my view, is an endorsement of an obscene and illegal self-dealing by the President of the United States. I strongly urge my colleagues to support this amendment.

Mr. Chair.

Senator Tillis.

Uh, I rise in opposition to the amendment. I hope my colleagues will vote against it. Mister Blanch made it very clear without a moment's of hesitation that he would work with us to end the seventeen seventy-six fund and revise the language uh on the uh on the audit. I believe he's working in good faith, and I think that we will get there. I think it's clear. There's another on this committee who's made it clear that we need that outcome to support his confirmation. Um, I hope that the integrity of this bill uh remains intact and that uh we just continue to move forward with Taxpayer Assistance and Services Act and we work to bring this to a conclusion that the administration has indicated that they're willing to do. I uh I had had been one who had worked with Blanche to try and get language that we could put uh through UC on the floor if we needed to but now I'm convinced that the best way to do this is to end it by renegotiating the agreement and settling it for good. So I'd urge opposition to the amendment.

Thank you, Senator Tillis. And I'll respond then, we can move to the vote that you have requested. Senator Wyden, uh, I I agree with Senator Tillis, uh, there there is a strong diversity of opinion and views among members of this committee uh on this issue.

Arrested.

And, uh, if this bill were to become the vehicle where this issue is resolved, it would achieve basically making this bill a uh partisan bill rather than a completely bipartisan bill which you've seen it as we've presented it today. Uh what I'm saying is basically what Senator Tillis said. This is not the place, it's being resolved in another uh situation in another committee. And uh I would ask my colleagues to reject this amendment because it would turn this bill into a bill that has a much dimmer future for becoming law. by making it a partisan bill rather than a bipartisan bill. Because of that, I would encourage my colleagues to vote against this amendment. Senator Wyden has re-

I would have request a vote.

has requested a vote and uh therefore uh the clerk will call the roll.

Mister Grassley.

A no.

Mister Grassley, no. Mister Cornyn.

No.

Mister Cornyn, no. Mister Thune.

No.

Mister Thune, no. Mister Scott.

no by proxy

mister scott no by proxy mister cassidy no by proxy

no by proxy

mister cassidy no by proxy mister langford mister langford no mister danes no by proxy no by proxy mister danes no mister young no mister young no mister barraza no by proxy mister barraza no mister johnson no by proxy

no by proxy

mister johnson no by proxy mister tillis no by proxy mister tillis no miss blackburn

no by proxy

miss blackburn no by proxy mister marshall

no by proxy

mister marshall no by proxy mister wyden aye mister wyden aye miss cantwell

aye

miss Cantwell aye Mr. Bennett

aye

Mr. Bennett aye Mr. Warner

so so far aye by proxy aye by proxy

Mr. Warner aye by proxy Mr. Whitehouse

aye by proxy aye by proxy

Mr. Whitehouse aye by proxy Miss Hassan

aye by proxy

Miss Hassan aye by proxy Miss Cortez Masto

aye

Miss Cortez Masto aye Miss Warren

aye

Miss Warren aye Mr. Sanders

aye by proxy

Mr. Sanders aye by proxy Miss Smith

aye

Miss Smith aye Mr. Lujan

aye by proxy

Mr. Lujan aye Mr. Warnock

aye

mister warnock aye mister welch

aye

mister welch aye mister chairman

sorry no

chairman votes now

next slide next slide

the clerk will report mister chairman the final tally is thirteen ayes fourteen nays

Uh with that the the amendment has been defeated. I am not aware of any other amendments that anyone seeks to make. Uh with that, if there is no further debate on the bill, I would entertain a motion that the committee order the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act reported as modified and amended.

I would so move, Mister Chairman.

Thank you.

I second.

Second is heard. The question before us is on ordering the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act as modified the clerk will call the roll

mister grassley

aye

mister grassley aye mister cornin

aye

mister cornin aye mister thune

aye

mister thune aye mister scott

aye by proxy aye by proxy

mister scott aye by proxy mister cassidy

aye by proxy

mister cassidy aye by proxy mister lankford

aye

mister lankford aye mister danes mister danes aye mister young

aye aye

mister young aye mister brasso

aye

mister brasso aye mister johnson

aye by proxy

mister Johnson aye by proxy mister Tillis

aye