Hearings to examine certain pending nominations.

The hearing will come to order. This hearing uh today will welcome our nominees, Mister Klump, Mister Gadwood, Doctor Bayh, and Mister DeMello. For being, and I appreciate you being here today. I appreciate all of you and your willingness to serve. Congratulations on your nominations. Today the finance committee will consider four nominees who, if confirmed, will serve in important roles across the Department of Health and Human Services, the Internal Revenue Service, and the United States Tax Court. We will first hear from Chris Klump, who is nominated to be Deputy Secretary of Health and Human Services. The Deputy Secretary serves as the department's second highest ranking official, and assists the secretary in overseeing HSI HHS programs, operations and policy priorities. HHS administers programs that affect millions of Americans, including those eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance program. If confirmed, Mister Klump will play an important role in coordinating the department's work and ensuring these programs are administered effectively. Next we will hear from Jim Gadwood. who is nominated to serve as Chief Counsel for the Internal Revenue Service, and an Assistant Attorney General, Assistant General Counsel in the Department of Treasury. The IRS Chief Counsel serves as the principal legal advisor to the IRS, and provides legal guidance on the administration and enforcement of our nation's tax laws. The Chief Counsel also oversees the representation of the IRS in litigation before the United States Tax Court. We will then hear from Doctor Bai, who is nominated to serve as Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation at the Department of Health and Human Services. This, the Assistant Secretary serves as Principal Advisor to the Secretary on Policy Development and provides analysis across a broad range of health and human serv- health human services issues. The office is responsible for policy coordination, strategic planning, economic analysis, research, and evaluation and legislative development. If confirmed, Doctor Bayh will help provide HHS leadership with the research and evidence necessary to inform the development and evaluation of department policies and programs. And finally, we will hear from Andrew DeMello, who is nominated to serve as a judge of the United States Tax Court. The tax court provides taxpayers with an independent judicial form to resolve disputes with the IRS. generally before the tax dispute is required to be paid. The tax court judges are responsible for interpreting and applying federal tax law and ensuring disputes receive fair and impartial consideration. Each of these positions carries significant responsibilities, and I look forward to discussing these important roles with our nominees today. Before closing, I will note that the nominees before the finance committee undergo significant vetting by congressional staff and each of the nominees here today have met the committee's vigorous vetting standard. I thank all of the nominees for their willingness to participate in the committee's nomination process, meet with committee staff prior to today's hearing, and answer their questions. I also thank you for your willingness to answer questions from the committee, members, during today's meeting. Thank you again to our nominees for being here and for your willingness to serve. And I now recognize Ranking Member Wyden for his remarks.

Thank you very much, uh, Mr. Chairman. We're gathered today to consider another set of Trump nominees. The hearing comes as the country has been plunged into the largest measle outbreak since the wide availability of the vaccine for the dangerous disease. Chris Klump has been nominated to serve as Robert Kennedy's second in command. Mr. Klump has been serving in that role unofficially for several months. There is no question in my mind that Mr. Klump is a smooth operator. But when it comes to actually following through on claims and commitments, there is no there there. Let me be specific, Trump's prescription drug deals. In April, the members of the committee asked Robert Kennedy to produce them. And he said, Mr. Kennedy, that Chris Klump would help make that happen. That was five months ago, and we are still getting nothing but lame excuses and delays. You'd think the administration would be tripping over themselves to make the details public, if they actually helped Americans who are hurting and struggling to afford their prescription drugs. The Trump plan on drug prices amounts to this. Trust me and trust big pharma. There's not a shred of evidence these deals have significantly lowered costs for patients. But there's ample evidence that Big Pharma got sweetheart tariff deals and boosted stock prices. Every Democrat on this committee, every single one, has said we need the legislation to compel the release of these deals. Next, the leadership question in terms of Medicare. Mister Klum told my staff, and I'll quote here, People pay into Medicare their whole lives. It's the great social contract. Well, here's the reality. He's the third Trump nominee who's come before the committee who's chosen to manipulate his tax payments, such that he has not paid any tax into Social Security or Medicare in at least two of the last several years. So, Mister Klopp likes saying there's an urgent need for good stewardship in government, but it sets a poor example for the self-proclaimed leader of Medicare not to contribute to the program, like every working family who pays into social security and Medicare out of their paycheck. Last, Mister Chairman and colleagues, is the issue of vaccines. Mister Klopp likes to talk about following the evidence. However, the leadership of Robert Kennedy at HHS has demonstrated the opposite. This administration is built around drawing conclusions and fabricating evidence to fit their ideological agenda. Exhibit A is Robert Kennedy's continued lies and fear-mongering, such as the outlandish claim that the measles vaccine contains aborted fetal debris. Later this week, Kennedy will speak before the largest anti-vaccine group in America. People, children in America are dying because the vaccine rates are dropping. If this administration and those in truly in positions follow the evidence we'd we'd not be in the midst of a record-setting outbreak of a disease that once was eradicated. All of this is against the backdrop of the largest cut to federal's health spending in American history. That's what Mister Klomp is gonna be overseeing. One trillion dollars was slashed from Medicaid. Millions have been kicked off their insurance, and health care premiums have risen into the stratosphere. In meetings with my staff, Mister Klomp tried to paint himself as fresh leadership. fresh leadership that would restore and trait integrity to the department. That's hard to believe coming from an individual who's already been on the job for months and is a member of the exclusive club where a membership fee up to five hundred thousand dollars gets you access to MAGA insiders. Next, we will talk to G Bai, nominated to be the s assistant secretary for planning and evaluation. That's essentially the research arm of the department, for independent analysis to inform federal policy making. Like Mister Klump, she's already been serving there in an acting capacity. Several of the reports issued by the research office under her leadership have called her independence into question. Two studies about health care coverage losses relied on shoddy analysis from the arch-conservative think tank in an effort to downplay how many Americans would be harmed by the Trump cuts. If confirmed, she has a history that shows she'll continue to help Trump eradicate any independent oversight of his administration. Next up, Mister Gadwood, Jim Gadwood, who's been nominated to be the chief counsel at the IRS, which has been an epicenter of corruption. That includes the sweetheart immunity deal that Trump secured. Right now everybody in America is subject to a tax audit, except the president and the United States and his family. This immunity deal is a flagrant abuse of power and sets a dangerous precedent that enables the corruption that's already been a calling card of the Trump administration to actually grow and run rampant. Mister Gadward is currently employed by a law firm that represents Donald Trump's holding company. He refuses to disclose whether his, the president or his family are clients. Past nominees have all been willing to disclose their client lists to the committee and recuse themselves from issues relating to Trump. Mr. Gadwood has done neither. And while the Trump allies run roughshod over tax laws to benefit the president, they've weaponized the IRS and illegally shared hundreds of thousands of taxpayers' private information with ICE as a part of Trump's anti-immigrant ideology. The chief counsel at the IRS would be at the center of resolving this flagrant abuse of the privacy of Americans. Anyone chosen to serve as chief counsel of the IRS has been hand-picked by Donald Trump, not because of qualifications, but because they will enable the corrupt self-dealing and look the other way when laws are broken. Finally, Andrew DeMello was nominated to be a tax court judge. His actions were central to some of the abuses that I just mentioned. According to court records, he approved a memo that allowed the IRS to begin sharing sensitive taxpayer information with ICE. He's outright refused to answer some of my team's vetting questions. One of the commitments every nominee that comes before the committee must make is to respond in writing to any request made by a member of the committee. He's failed to do so. As a result, I don't think his presence today at the hearing is legitimate. None of the nominees being considered today have shown the ability or the desire to rein in lawlessness and the Trump agenda particularly the dangerous aspects that I've been talking about. Thank you, Chairman Crapo.

Thank you, Senator Wyden. On a housekeeping note, today's hearing will go as follows. First, I have four obligatory questions that we ask of all nominees appearing before the committee. We will then proceed to the introduction of the nominees and their opening statements. We will begin on my left with Mister Klump and proceed to my right ending with Mister DeMello. These are the four questions, and I just ask that you verbally to the questions as I ask them. They can take just a yes or no answer. Is there anything that you are aware of in your background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated?

No. No. No. No.

Thank you. Number two is, do you know of any reason, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office?

No. No.

No.

No.

Number three is do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress, if you are confirmed?

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And number four is do you commit to provide a prompt response in writing to any questions addressed to you by any senator of this committee?

Yes.

yes

yes

yes

thank you and i'm now going to recognize my colleague senator cassidy who has the honor to introduce two of our nominees today uh mister klump and doctor bye after which i will introduce mister gadwood and mister de melo senator cassidy

it is an honor to introduce these two chris klump served as the chief counselor at the us department of health and human services until recently as the director of medicare and Deputy Administrator at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. With extensive experience in healthcare payment reform and data sharing, he has founded and partnered with numerous companies working within these issues. His work at Collective Medical included partnerships with health systems, plans, providers, post-acutes, and state governments to advance value-based care. Through endurance companies, he has co-founded, invested in, or advised many organizations, including Nomi Health, Maven Clinic, Innovative, you know, you know, Innovacare, uh, Health, and Healthjoy. He previously served as a Utah Senate confirmed Commissioner of the Utah Digital Health Services Commission where he focused on leveraging technology for cost-effective healthier outcomes. Mr. Klump holds a BA in Economics and English from Brigham Young University, and an MBA from Stanford, perhaps showing that you can graduate in English and still get a job. So, anyway. Um, next is Doctor G. Bai. Dr. Bai has served as Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation at the Department of Health and Human Services since March, twenty twenty six. She has been a Professor of Accounting at the Johns Hopkins Carey Business School since twenty sixteen, and a Professor of Health Policy and Management at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health since twenty nineteen. As a CPA, her expertise includes healthcare accounting, finance to policy. She has been published in New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, Health Affairs and has written for the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. She was a visiting scholar at the Health Analysis Division of the Congressional Budget Office from twenty twenty-two to twenty twenty-three. She holds a PHD in accounting from Michigan State University and a Master of Science in accounting from Eastern Michigan University. And, Mister Chairman, I will say on a personal note that whenever I've called Dr. Bai for information or thoughts regarding something that we are considering in healthcare, she's been straightforward, accessible, and honest, and I really appreciate that history. With that, I yield.

Thank you very much, Senator Cassidy. And now I'll introduce Mister Gadwood. Mister Gadwood brings nearly two decades of experience practicing in the field of federal tax law. He currently serves as Vice Chair of the Tax Department at Miller and Chevalier, here in Washington, where he has spent the last ten years advising clients on a wide range of complex tax matters. Prior to joining Miller and Chevalier, Mister Gadwood spent eight years practicing in the tax group at Sullivan and Cromwell in New York. Throughout his career, he's developed significant experience navigating our nation's tax laws, and the complex legal issues that arise in their administration. He earned his law degree from Boston University School of Law and his undergraduate degree in economics from the University of Michigan. Mister DeMello brings extensive experience in public service, the federal tax litigation federal tax litigation and in tax administration. He recently served as acting chief counsel for the Internal Revenue Service, where he served as the principal legal advisor to the IRS commissioner. Prior to assuming that role, he served in several positions within the IRS office of chief counsel, including as senior counsel and branch chief. Mister DeMello also spent more than a decade as a trial attorney in the Department of Justice Tax Division, litigating complex tax matters in federal, district, and bankruptcy courts. His public service has also included work with the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General, and he is currently serving on detail to the Department of Energy. Mister DeMello earned his law degree from Columbia Law School and his undergraduate degree in public policy from With that, again, we welcome all of you here, and as I indicated, we will now uh ask you to make your opening statements and begin with you, Mister Klump.

Chairman Crapo, Ranking Member Wyden, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for considering my nomination as Deputy Secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services. I am grateful to President Trump for nominating me to Secretary Kennedy for his trust in me and to my fellow public servants from HHS and CMS for their dedication to service. Most importantly, I think my wife, Elise, and our four young children for their love and sacrifice. This journey began in part because we wanted to teach them what it means to answer, to call, to serve. We wanted to teach them about those in history who had done just that. We are profoundly grateful for the privilege of now doing the same. Health care became personal to me long before it became my profession. When I was thirteen, I lost my mother to cancer following an experimental treatment for severe rheumatoid arthritis. It was triggered by my birth. It was based on a cellular mutation from an experimental treatment that had medical error. I was young, grieving, and angry. And I carried a chip on my shoulder about health care. At the same time, my father, a physician, was teaching me something very different. Being a healer is among the highest callings, and caring for someone in a moment of vulnerability is an extraordinary privilege. Those two experiences lived side by side in me, an understanding of how profoundly our health care system can fail people, and an equally powerful appreciation for the good that dedicated healers can accomplish. Years later, as a missionary in Eastern Europe, I saw suffering while health care lagged uh far behind ours. That experience deepened my faith and clarified my purpose, to be my brother's keeper and to draw people closer to God. Together, these experiences made HHS's mission deeply personal to me, preventing harm, alleviating human suffering, and helping healers save lives. I did not become a physician. Instead, I found my calling building organizations that empower good people to do extraordinary things. Across business and public service, I have been entrusted with increasingly consequential opportunities to earn trust and to exercise judgment on behalf of others. Those experiences taught me that leadership is ultimately an exercise in stewardship. The need for that stewardship is great. Nearly one in five dollars in our economy goes to health care, yet three in four adults live with chronic conditions. Too many Americans are sick and too many struggle to obtain care. We cannot afford to confuse more health care with better health. The best and least expensive care is often the care we never need because we remain healthy. Those realities define our mission at HHS. First, we must make America healthier by preventing chronic disease, restoring trust, and answering difficult questions. Second, we must make healthcare more affordable, accessible, and effective by rewarding better outcomes and replacing incentives that fail patients or taxpayers. Third, we must make HHS operate with excellence by giving public servants clear missions, modern tools, appropriate authority, and accountability for results. As Deputy Secretary, my responsibility would be to translate mission into execution by aligning people, process, technology, and resources around those results. Leading Medicare and helping oversee HHS operations has reinforced that government government makes progress when it sets clear objectives, empowers talented people, measures results, and follows the evidence. Operational excellence is how policy becomes service. That demands humility. It demands sound judgment, and it demands careful stewardship. Leadership begins with earning trust, listening, confronting difficult facts, respecting differing perspectives, acting with integrity, and accepting responsibility. Leaders come and go, but institutions do and should endure. The test of stewardship is not what we inherit, it is what we leave behind. A healthier America is not a partisan aspiration. It is a national obligation. We may disagree profoundly about policy, but we should share that goal. If confirmed, I will work constructively with this committee, tell you candidly what I believe to be true, respect Congress's authorities and responsibilities, and work toward those shared ends. Confirmation by the Senate is itself an extraordinary act of trust. If fortunate enough to receive that trust, I will work every day to earn it. with gratitude, faith in our shared capacity to solve difficult problems, and joy in serving the American people. And I hope our children and those who come after them will look back on this chapter and see that we, jointly and collectively, answered the call to serve with integrity, competence, and civility, and left them a healthier country. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mister Klum. Mister Godwood.

Chairman Crapo, Ranking Member Wyden, and members of the committee. I am honored to appear before you today as the President's nominee for Chief Counsel of the Internal Revenue Service. I'd like to begin by thanking my wife and four sons who are sitting behind me. I love them dearly. I am tremendously proud of them. and I would not be here today without their love and support. I also thank my parents and my family and friends who are in the audience or watching online. Next, I'd like to thank President Trump and Secretary Besant for placing their trust and confidence in me. I'd also like to thank Professor Ted Sims for inspiring me to become a tax lawyer my mentors for the time they have invested in me over the course of my career, my colleagues at Miller and Chevalier for their friendship, and the dedicated employees at the IRS Office of Chief Counsel for their service to the country. It would be an honor to lead them, to learn from them, and to work alongside them. Finally, I thank God for the many blessings he has bestowed upon me, my family, and this great country in which we all live. I offer today's hearing up to him in gratitude. I am deeply humbled by this nomination and mindful of the distinguished lawyers who have led the IRS Office of Chief Counsel over the past one hundred and fifty-seven years. They include Robert Jackson, who later served as a US Supreme Court Justice. E. Barrett Prettyman, whose name now marks the courthouse of the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit, just down Constitution Avenue from where we sit today. And Robert Miller, who more than a century ago founded the law firm of Miller and Chevalier where I have proudly worked as a tax lawyer for the past ten years. If confirmed, I will strive to honor their legacy with the skill and professionalism, the role of IRS Chief Counsel demands and deserves. I view this nomination as a tremendous opportunity. First and foremost, an opportunity to use my talents in service of my country. Also, an opportunity to set an example for my sons about the importance of service, sacrifice, embracing challenges, and trusting always in God's divine providence. And finally, an opportunity to take on what I personally believe to be the greatest tax lawyer job in the world. Only forty-nine people have been formally appointed to this role. It would be a privilege to be the fiftieth. The IRS was originally, and for many years, known as the Bureau of Internal Revenue. Nearly seventy-five years ago it was renamed the Internal Revenue Service. That last word, service, was intentional and matters a great deal. It reflects an obligation not merely to administer the tax laws, but to serve the American people who must understand and comply with them. The IRS Office of Chief Counsel's mission statement reflects this service-oriented focus in its opening three words. Serve America's taxpayers. If confirmed, serving America's taxpayers will be a priority for me. This includes timely guidance that gives taxpayers the certainty they need to make investment decisions and the clarity they need to file accurate tax returns. Principled legal advice that seeks to ensure taxpayers pay no more and no less tax than the Internal Revenue Code requires. And high quality legal representation of the IRS that facilitates effective and efficient enforcement. and collection action. Thank you for your time today, for meeting with me over the last several weeks, and for considering my nomination.

Thank you, Mister Gadwin. Doctor Baiff.

Chairman Kripal, Ranking Member Wyden, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity. I'm honored by President Trump's nomination to serve as Assistant Secretary at the Department of Health and Human Services. I'm grateful to President Trump and Secretary Kennedy for their confidence in me. I thank my mentors, including Professors Casey Mulligan and David Hyman, who are here with us today. I'm also grateful to my colleagues, students, and most importantly, numerous co-authors. It's a blessing to have worked with each one of them and build our scholarship. As a certified public accountant and the Professor of Health Policy and Accountant at Johns Hopkins, my research mantra has been let the numbers speak. My expertise is in following the money, in complex transactions and systems. Since I wrote my very first health care paper during my doctoral program at Michigan City University I have studied the US health care for almost twenty years. I have published numerous studies in meeting academic journals, testified multiple times before Congress, and examined hospital, clinician, pharmaceutical, and the insurance markets. My work focuses on how health policies affect patients, providers, employers, taxpayers, insurers, investors, and other market participants. The Office of Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation, or ASPE, is a policy analysis office for the secretary and HHS leadership. It has always held a special place in my heart. My mentor at Johns Hopkins, Professor Gerard Anderson, is among the most influential health policy researchers in the country. He says that he is most proud of his years at ASPE. My former colleagues from Hopkins and the congressional budget office, where I served as a visiting scholar, also speak very proudly of their experience at ASPE. So I have always viewed ASPE as the crown jewel of house policy analysis, and hoped to have the opportunity to be part of it myself. This spring, I was fortunate to be appointed by President Trump as the principal deputy for ISPE. ISPE has three core functions. First, planning. Estimating the likely impact of a policy before its implementation. Second, evaluation. Assessing the actual impact of a policy after its implementa implementation. Third, education. Analyzing underexplored and emerging issues. If confirmed, I will strive to lead ISPE in conducting rigorous evidence-based analysis to support these functions. Simply put, let the numbers speak. We spend fourteen hundred dollars every month for every American, children included. This cost might not be visible for all Americans, but someone is paying for them. Through high premiums, high taxes, foregone wages and earnings, lost entrepreneurship opportunities, and a growing national debt. Despite this level of spending, we remain one of the sickest developed countries in the world. We have a very low return on investment in health care. Addressing this low investment on health care requires following the money, which is my expertise. With evidence-based policymaking, we can unleash American dynamism, which will create new therapies, innovative care models, vibrant competition, and dynamic markets that bring affordability and access to all Americans. Under the leadership of President Trump and Secretary Kennedy, and by working with you all and the American people, ISPE can play an important role in this journey to make America healthy again. Twice a day, I bike past the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial on my way to work. They remind me what makes America exceptional. Twice a day I also pass Americans who come to visit our nation from every corner. The admiration in their eyes and the love for our country in their hearts humble me. If I'm confirmed, I'll give my very best effort to be worthy of your trust, serve the American people, and honor this God-given opportunity. Thank you.

Thank you, Doctor Bai. Mister de Mello.

Chairman Crapo, Ranking Member Wyden, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for holding this hearing and for the courtesy you and your staff have extended throughout this process. I am honored to appear before you today as the President's nominee to serve as a Judge of the United States Tax Court. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity to be considered for this office. Public service has been one of the defining commitments of my life. from my education in public policy at princeton to law school at columbia to my years in the department of justice and the internal revenue service i have tried to devote my professional life to work and service of the public and to the rule of law i have been fortunate to receive extraordinary opportunities in this country and i have long believed that to whom much is given much is expected this principle has both the work I have chosen and the manner in which I have tried to do it. For more than a decade and a half, I have served in legal positions that demanded rigor, judgment, and fidelity to law. At the Department of Justice's Tax Division, I handled complex affirmative and defensive litigation in federal district and bankruptcy courts, including cases involving significant monetary recovery, technical tax issues, civil discovery, expert practice, and trial work. This experience taught me the discipline of careful preparation and the importance of precise legal analysis. My subsequent service at the Internal Revenue Service deepened these lessons. As Branch Chief in the Office of Chief Counsel and as Senior Counsel in the Litigation and Advisory Division I have worked on complex matters of all shapes and sizes. And during my service as Acting Chief Counsel I had the privilege of helping lead a large office of attorneys across the country. That responsibility required legal judgment and institutional knowledge. Across each of these roles, one lesson has remained constant. The law must be applied fairly, impartially, and with respect for every person who interacts with the government. The United States Tax Corps occupies a vital place in our system because it provides taxpayers with an independent forum in which disputes may be heard before payment of the tax. For many litigants, especially those without counsel, appearing before the court may be one of the most significant interactions they ever have with the legal system. They are entitled to a judge who is prepared, patient, even-handed, and faithful to the application of law. If I am confirmed, I will endeavor to decide every case on the facts in the law without fear or favor. I will strive to listen carefully, to write clearly, and to uphold the law fairly and conscientiously. John Win John Winthrop's sixteen thirty admonition that we shall be as a city upon a hill remains a powerful reminder that public office is a trust carried out in full view of the people we serve. That trust demands humility, diligence and character. It would be the highest honor of my professional life to continue my public service in this capacity. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. DeMello. I'm gonna start out with you, uh, Mister Kalam. Um If confirmed as HHS Deputy Secretary, you would play a central role in advancing department priorities, coordinating across its agencies. Given the scope and size of HHS, effective leadership is essential to avoid organizational silos. How would you describe your leadership and management style, and how would you foster collaboration across HHS and with outside entities, to ensure policies fulfill intended objectives.

Thank you, Mister Chairman. Uh, I have had the opportunity to uh build uh lead uh uh be on the boards of participate in many different organizations from the very smallest and early endings to very very large organizations and what I've learned is that fundamental underlying leadership pr uh principles are true irrespective of the type of organization and that's important, because HHS is a big organization with roughly seventy thousand uh full-time employees and another eighty thousand contractors. two point three trillion dollars, nearly a fifth of GDP, run through the department in some way, shape or form. That requires a great deal of complexity, uh uh uh or a great deal of coordination. We have twenty-five distinct operating components, thirteen agencies, twelve staff divisions, twenty-five that require coordination, along with coordination with many other departments across the federal government and many state county and local health departments. And so this is a tremendous undertaking. What I've learned about leadership fundamentally is that trust is the basis of every high-performing team with which I've ever been a part. And trust requires three things of a team. Individuals who are highly competent in the roles to which they've been assigned. Individuals who treat one another with kindness, respect and dignity. And individuals who are unassailably high integrity. That is the basis or a recipe for trust, and when we have trust, that becomes the great culture enabler to do extraordinary things. Because then we can have plain conversations, we can disagree with one another. We can engage meaningfully, we can collaborate. When we take people and we equip those with the appropriate processes and the appropriate systems, magic happens. We can undertake things seemingly impossible, which in fact is the challenge that faces us as a country today. We have extraordinary health challenges. They demand our very best as a department. And if confirmed and having the privilege, my responsibility would be to deliver just that on behalf of the roughly hundred and fifty thousand people who work at HHS and serve day to day.

Well thank you very much, Mister Klumpen, I just wanna say that you you have uh worked with our committee very closely, you've provided thousands of pages of documentation on all of the issues that have been thrown at you in this nomination process you have met all of the requirements and standards of this committee in vetting a nominee and you are completely and well qualified to be Deputy Secretary at the Department of Health and Human Services.

Thank you, Mister Chairman.

I'd like to shift to mister DeMello for just a moment. Uh, mister DeMello, uh, during ranking member Wyden's opening statement, he asserted that you did not respond to a majority of his questions during the committee's due diligence process. I understand that many of these questions pertain to your service as acting IRS chief counsel and as such may concern internal agency deliberations or relate to ongoing litigation where the IRS and the Department of Treasury are parties. In addition to responding to questions during the committee due diligence meetings, I also understand you've provided further written responses to Senator Wyden. I just want to give you this opportunity in the minute and a half that I have left of my time, uh, to give a brief further response if you would like to on these issues.

Thank you, Mister Chairman, both for the opportunity to be here and to respond. I've engaged with the committee's processes in good faith since the moment my nomination was announced. I underwent a background check, ethics check and tax check. When I received minority staff questions, I responded to all of them. I attended a day's worth of staff meetings and responded to all the questions that I could. After that, I offered to meet with every uh member of this committee's staff one-on-one, and two of them met with me. I also received a subsequent letter from Senator Wyden, I'm sorry, Ranking Member Wyden, uh to which I responded every question. uh the letter was dated august fourteenth it requested a seven day turn around there were by my count something like sixty questions uh even though they weren't numbered that way it was impossible to get it done in seven days but it has been sent out as of last week and we responded to every question possible it's because of my because i am an attorney and because i served at a high level there are privileges that apply and there's ongoing litigation and it's not possible to to uh break those privileges while maintaining a professional standard. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Senator Wyden.

Thank you very much uh Mister Chairman, let me start with you uh Mister Klump, you've been serving as Chief Counsel to the Secretary since February, and in that period of time, measles cases have soared. There are well over thirty-two hundred active cases in the country right now. And we know why that's the case. It's because the MMR vaccine prevents measles, but Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy have been spewing lies about measles, and scaring people away from vaccination. And at Mister Kennedy's hearing, I can tell you he lied to my face, directly, about his involvement in the measles outbreak in Samoa that killed more than eighty children. So what I'm looking for at HHS and this is what I talked to you about when we had a Zoom, I want somebody who's gonna stand up to the lies. That's what I'm looking for, somebody who's gonna fight for the truth. And so I thought I'd give you a chance today to do that. So I've got some questions that address the issue. Does the MMR vaccine cause autism?

Senator Wyden, thank you so much for meeting with me last week and with your team. I've appreciated the dialogue and I look forward to more to come. Uh, unquestionably, the MMR vaccine is the single most effective public health tool that we have against measles. It's ninety-seven percent effective after two doses to preventing transmission and is the single best thing that we can do to eradicate, uh, uh, uh, and establish our exemption from measles again. We agree on that very strongly. Uh, I do not believe, based on the preponderance of evidence I have seen, uh, that, uh, MMR vaccines cause autism. We also don't know what causes autism, and as a country that should concern us greatly, and we need to understand that answer because it affects millions.

We do know what this is all about. The MMR vaccine causes autism. You say otherwise.

Uh uh uh, as I just said, we know that the MMR vaccine is the single most effective tool against measles, and as a department, our absolute stance is we strongly encourage individuals to be vaccinated. Where we disagree perhaps is that this is a problem singular to the United States. Many countries across the world have lost their eradication status over the last few years. We've seen vaccination rates dropping all over the world, not just in the United States.

Well, let me let me move on. Robert Kennedy said that the MMR vaccine contains aborted fetal debris. Is that true?

Uh, I'm not a vaccine expert and I am unaware of that being true.

You're not aware that it is true?

I I am not a vaccine I don't know what the MMR vaccine, uh, uh, carries. I would be happy to dig into that with our team and come back to you with composition.

Well, there's only one correct answer to the question, and the an- correct answer is no, the MMR vaccine doesn't contain aborted fetal debris. Do you agree with that?

Again, I, I actually don't know the composition of the MMRV vaccine. Uh, my understanding was that the very earliest instances of that vaccine contained, uh, uh, tissue, uh, many decades ago. I do not believe, uh, that the vaccine continues to contain that tissue today.

So the third third question I have is Donald Trump called the MMR vaccine quite lethal. Do you agree with that?

Uh, I do not believe, uh, that the MMR vaccine is lethal. I believe the president said that it could be in certain circumstances. Uh, I I don't believe that he said it is in fact lethal. We do not believe that the MMR vaccine is lethal, which is why it's recommended, why it's been approved by the FDA, and why we continue to expend tremendous amounts of resource across the department in order to eliminate measles outbreaks all over the country. It is the single most important thing we can do in that battle.

Now you've been saying that you weren't involved in measles issues at HHS. But it looks to me like that's cover, because you told my staff that you picked up the phone and called your hand-picked CDC director to discuss measles just a few weeks ago. So the question again is, cuz I know that you're very smooth in terms of raising all these issues is which is it, not involved or involved enough to call the CDC director?

Senator Wyden uh uh uh ranking member Wyden, uh part of my responsibility is to enable the operations, uh smooth operations of the department. I'm responsible for personnel, among other things. My job is to make sure that we have everyone communicating with one another.

We want smooth operations. We want clear answers to the American people.

And the best way I can get those

And they're not getting them, they're getting bobbing and weaving by you.

The best way I can get those clear answers is to promote clear communication across our team members. And so I absolutely speak with the director of CDC. Doctor Schwartz is exceptionally well qualified. Uh, we're very grateful to have her leadership in the agency, uh, and and she's doing an excellent job working to mobilize our response on behalf of this outbreak.

Thousands of American kids are needlessly suffering from measles on your watch, and I don't sense any urgency here. not in your work, not this morning, not anywhere. Is that gonna change if you're confirmed?

Ranking member Wyden, I assure you we feel an extraordinary amount of urgency to alleviate human suffering, including from measles outbreaks, and the department is doing everything it can. It released an additional fifty million dollars of funds just two weeks ago, uh, targeted towards state health departments. We're considering the release of an additional fifty million dollars shortly to do just the same. We are deploying epi teams regularly across the country. we are offering assistance with our laboratory services, we are very focused from an operational perspective, which I would have responsibility for were I to be confirmed as Deputy Secretary, which I am not today

If you're con- if you're confirmed as far as I can tell,

to enable that.

you know, Donald Trump and the secretary are gonna be able to use business as usual to continue, uh, their policy. That's a big mistake. I'll have additional questions later, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Lankford.

Sure, thank you. Thank you to all of you uh for being here and going through the process. Uh it is a long arduous difficult process to be able to get through to even this point, and then to be able to take the next step from here to be able to take on the task. So I'm very grateful for folks that wanna be able to step up and to be able to do this. We've talked we've talked before about PBMs and where we are. Uh bipartisan basis around this Dias, uh we passed several PBM reforms, included in that was my Protect Patients Access to Pharmacies Act. Um, president signed, uh, it's now in the implementation phase. The the challenge of that is trying to get contracting information, getting accurate information. Uh, as you know full well, a lot of these PBMs do predatory contracting requirements, especially on their independent pharmacies, uh, don't allow them to be able to share that information at all because they don't like the transparency uh in the process of this at all. Uh, so, to get that information is gonna be difficult. So, I guess my first question for you, you have confirmed how will you get the accurate information on this so we can actually get factual data, to be able to implement this new statute and then what's the process that you'll have, to actually get the regulations out as fast as possible.

Sir Langford first, let me just say I've always appreciated our interactions, uh, and your cool and level-headed logical response,

Yes.

um, including on this topic. Uh, unquestionably PBMs are a complicated topic.

Right.

Uh, I'll tell you if confirmed in this role, my responsibility will not be to directly address policy matters, including on PBMs. but instead to ensure that we have the right experts who deeply understand not just policy around pharmacy benefit many uh uh uh managers but also the business practices uh uh the ways the funds flow that they move across offshore GPO purchasing arrangements and otherwise. I'm a big believer uh uh that that sunshine is uh the great disinfectant

Right.

uh we should not seek to stifle competition nor should we seek to unfairly disclose trade secrets. of companies in this country. That's a great free market enterprise principle. At the same time, employers should understand where their funds are going and what they are getting for them. President Trump has fought more for transparency than any president on record that I can recollect. PBMs are no different. We at the department lack certain regulatory authorities to make progress. I believe we working together with you, with your legislative authorities, could make extraordinary progress. and if confirmed one of the areas i think we could collaborate on would be to make available to you deep technical expertise which we have on the team and which we can freely access in order to understand how to increase that level of transparency how to understand the roi that folks get through the p b m system