Hearings to examine VA Police Operations.

Uh, welcome to all and welcome especially to our witnesses. Um, we, uh, I wanna recognize this day of the week, this week of National Police Week. Uh, we convened today to discuss, uh, the Department of Veterans Affairs, Police Force, and how we can best support those who protect our nation's veterans. And I take a moment to thank, uh, the VA police officers for the work that they do every day to keep our veterans, to keep our staff, and to keep our visitors to VA facilities across the country safe. I, as a Kansan, I particularly want to thank, uh, Wichita, Kansas, VA Police Chief, Chad Allen, who joins us today. Thank you, uh, for his hard work and his dedication to protecting his fellow Kansas veterans. Close up, close to ninety percent of the VA's police workforce is made up of veterans themselves. By combining their personal experience with advanced crisis intervention training, VA police are uniquely equipped to manage the difficult situations with veterans in crisis. In May, twenty twenty four, I raised my concerns with then-Secretary McDonough after discovering that VA police were not in compliance with statutory crisis intervention training requirements. In response to committee inquiries, VA self-reported a mere twenty-eight percent compliance with the law from January twenty-three to March twenty-four. Today, VA police compliance with this important training requirement is at ninety-six point eight percent. I'm encouraged by Secretary Collins' April twenty-twenty-five directive to centralize the VA police chain of command, and I look forward to to full realignment that's expected in November. This command structure should allow for more oversight, career progression, and standardization among VA police units, and I look forward to the VA's update along the way. The number one concern I hear from VA police officers in Kansas and around the country is the potential pay downgrades. While classification changes are currently paused, VA police officers are facing a pay downgrade to levels as low as GS five. In addition, in an August twenty twenty five VA inspector general re report, found VA police staffing shortages at fifty-eight percent of facilities. In these downgrades, if these downgrades go through without a new compensation package, staffing issues undoubtedly will get worse. It's my understanding that the VA leadership is currently working to update position descriptions that will bring VA police to a competitive pay rate with other federal law enforcement agencies. I look forward to learning more about that effort today and in the weeks ahead. Finally, in Sep- in September of twenty twenty-three, I requested the Government Accountability Office to conduct a review of campus security at VA facilities around the country. GAO will be releasing this report today in conjunction with our hearings. The findings warrant attention by VA leadership. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses this afternoon about how this committee can best support VA police in securing VA facilities while providing care to those that's served. Uh, almost with that I yield to the ranking member. We have three votes at, that were to start at three forty five, so the first one is now underway. You'll see some of us come and go during the hearing, but my plan is to have the hearing continue in our absence. With that I yield to the ranking member, Senator Blumenthal.

Thanks very much, uh, Chairman Moran. Um, we come here today on a really important issue to so many veterans who depend on proper safety and policing at va facilities uh va police departments are charged with the responsibility of that safety and ensuring the security of all va facilities including veterans families va staff and visitors since twenty nineteen va police officers have been among the top non-clinical staffing shortages based on facility reports to the va inspector general that's since twenty nineteen but nothing has been more damaging to the recruitment retention and morale of va police than this administration's policies of changing the staffing of v a facilities the threat of position downgrades by the office of personal management and based on v a s monthly workforce dashboard v a police officer's experience and net loss of nearly three hundred officers in fiscal year twenty twenty five the first net loss on record since the v a began publishing this data during this time v a facilities struggled to recruit police officers often failing to solicit quality applicants due to the fear of salary cuts or they stopped recruitment altogether at the same time a significant restructuring of the office of security and preparedness osp was underway this restructuring was intended to give more authority over staffing resource allocations decisions to osp thereby helping the medical center directors avoid the difficult decision of choosing between clinical staff and police unfortunately when facility leadership was tasked with cutting vacancies they were told to target those vacancies that have been unfilled the longest resulting in removal of four hundred and sixty one vacant police officer positions moving forward even though the department paused the proposed downgrades the significant damage has been done amidst ongoing consultation with opm many police officers continue to fear unsustainable salary cuts are on the horizon many are leaving the department many have already left to provide peace of mind to these officers and to prevent future downgrades and pay cuts i will be introducing the va police recruitment and retention act of twenty twenty six this legislation has been already introduced in the house by representative tim kennedy it would prohibit any position downgrades of va police officers i'd like to make this bill bipartisan and i look forward to discussing the bill with our witnesses today i'll close with a couple of quotes from va police officers who reached out to my office they expressed concern over the current status of the va police work quote we have more than fifteen floors to cover and several times we only have two va cops to respond to emergencies midnight tour only has one va cop this facility is definitely not safe for staff veterans and guests it's not safe for one cop to respond to our mental health ward alone it's unacceptable end quote second quote i often work alone my backup is the local city police and county sheriffs we run bare bones staffing with two officers only end quote i hope our witnesses will provide assurances today to congress, but more importantly the VA, police officers and staff there that VA leadership in this administration support the role of VA police departments without reservation. I hope you will support the bill that I am introducing. Thank you, Mister Chairman.

Sir Blumenthal, Senator Blumenthal, thank you very much, uh, I now want to, uh, recognize, uh, our witnesses We are joined today by Reginald Neal, the VA's Assistant Secretary of Operations, Security and Preparedness, and accompanying him is Mister Mark Engelbaum, Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and Administration, Mister Patrick Hernandez, Director of Security and Law Enforcement, Office of Operation Security and Preparedness, and Mister Chad Allen, Chief of Police for the Wichita, Kansas, the Robert J. Dole VA Medical Center. We are also joined by Triana McNeal, the Director of the U. S. Government Accountability Office's Homeland Security and Justice team. Finally, we're joined by Matthew Loeffler, a Senior Police Officer at the Wilkes-Barre VA Medical Center and Vice President of AFGE Local one six nine nine. Thank you all for your presence today. Mister Neal, you are now recognized.

Thank you, uh, Chairman. Uh, to chair, the ranking member, uh, Blumenthal, and to the members of the Committee on Veterans Affairs. I appreciate this opportunity to provide an update on the state of our VA police. As previously mentioned, I'm accompanied by Mister Engelbaum, uh, Patrick Hernandez, and Chief Allen from uh Wichita, Kansas. When people ask me about the mission of the VA police, I'm proud to tell them that our police provides security and law enforcement services to the largest integrated health care system in this country. When this administration returned to office in twenty twenty five, we inherited a fractured and dysfunctional force. One that was plagued with many of the very problems that have been highlighted for years, not only by the GAO reports but by the VA's own accounting in our IG office. Here's some of the most serious issues that we h- have had to address. There's also For years the VA police were managed by individual VA medical centers. Individual V For our VA police, of- many of our officers reported to medical center personnel instead of law enforcement professionals. Our VA police endured inconsistent policing standards, which led to a lack of both accountability and discipline. Often our professional officers were used to perform non-police functions, including in some cases serving as valets to park cars. Mm-hmm. This basic organizational problem also made it difficult to recruit, retain, Retain. and promote seasoned officers. Our officers were not a part of a larger law enforcement structure, Oh, OK. a a structure that understood policing and one that allowed for career advancement from journeyman police officer to senior law enforcement leadership positions. Since we began our police consolidation effort, we immediately began working to properly classify VA police position descriptions. This is a complex issue,

Mm-hmm.

and it has been my top priority since I was appointed by the president in December of last year. The bottom line is that police officers were not properly classified in accordance with federal standards. This led to OPM directing that these inconsistencies be identified and be corrected.

Mm-hmm.

The result of correcting these improper classifications would have indeed lowered uh grades and pay of over ninety, ninety-five percent of our VA police officers. This was not acceptable. Although these downgrades were not implemented, the very threat of lower grades and pay less pay created deep professional and personal concern amongst the VA police. President Trump charged Secretary, VA Secretary D- Doug Collins with putting veterans first. And Secretary Collins is doing just that. So what have we done? First, we recognized that VA police needed a unified chain of command. And this started at the top. This started with the reestablishment of the Office of Operation Security and Preparedness with its own Assistant Secretary. And I am that person. In addition, with the realignment of the plea- the police under OSP and the Office of Security and Law Enforcement, we finally have actual law enforcement leaders in charge of our VA police, officers leading officers. So what does all this mean? It means now we can enforce standards and discipline across all facilities It means now with departmental oversight of training and professional development. It means that VA police now have a direct line to an assistant secretary, who represents them to the secretary of veterans affairs. And we've created more stability and opportunities for officers to have a long-term career within the VA. Yeah. And most importantly, Most importantly. we are fixing the core issues with the VA police duty classifications. This is a huge undertaking. I have been personally involved with our HRA office in conducting I agree. detailed reviews of current police position qualification standards. Together we are working with OPM to permanently classify our VA police based on the complex duties that they now perform, not on antiquated job descriptions that haven't been reviewed or updated in almost forty years. I'm proud to say that we are on track to provide the pay and compensation that our police officers have earned. These critical changes have put the VA police on better footing to address the emerging challenges including those highlighted in this latest GAO report. I recently became aware of this report and its findings, and I was briefed on it yesterday. I've read it and I've I take the findings and the recommendations very seriously. However,

Mm-hmm.

I believe that our actions since initiating VA police consolidation in September have already begun to address some of the challenges identified therein. Chairman Moran and Ranking Member Blumenthal and the senators on this committee, thank you for your support. You and I understand that the VA's commitment to help veterans, their families, and our providers does not mean very much. if our facilities are not safe. I carry this weight like command very seriously. Since coming to the VA, I have personally visited thirteen facilities and met with thirteen police units in the short time that I've been here. I've seen firsthand the challenges of our that our VA police face and the improvements needed to keep our facilities safe. I'm here to testify today that prior to the findings and release of this report, that we have already made tremendous strides that have put us on the right path. Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss the importance of our VA police force, and their integral role in the department that provides care and benefits for millions of veterans. I look forward to your questions.

Doctor Neal, thank Doctor Neal, thank you for your testimony. Let me turn now to Mister Loeffler.

Chairman Moran, Mem- Ranking Member of Lumenthal, and members of the committee. My name is Matthew Loeffler. and i currently serve as vice president of aft local sixteen ninety nine at the wilkes-barre v a m c i am a proud marine corps veteran and i served twenty years in federal law enforcement including four as an m p ten as a marine corps civilian officer and the last six years as a senior v a police officer on behalf of aft and its national v a council representing three hundred and twenty five thousand dedicated v a employees including two thousand five hundred v a police officers ninety percent of whom are veterans themselves it is a privilege to testify today especially during law enforcement appreciation week afg has several recommendations raised by our law enforcement members that can help the va with recruitment and retention first and foremost the va must fully staff the va police force in fy twenty five oig reported fifty eight percent of facilities designated police as having a severe occupational staffing shortage making it the most frequently reported non-clinical shortage Because of this, expensive new security equipment in some facilities sits unused due to s- short staffing. In other locations, nurses are being forced to operate metal detectors. In some facilities, a lack of officers limits response to one emergency at a time. The staffing problem is also dire for CBOX, where the nearest officer is often miles away, or VBA regional offices, which are often protected by other police. To address this, AFT urges the VA to fully staff the VA police force, and allow us to keep everyone safe second aft strongly opposes the proposed downgrades of va police officers to address this aft supports hr eighty ten the va police recruitment and retention act introduced by representative kennedy if enacted this legislation would prohibit opm and the va from downgrading the positions of va police

it's true it's true

aft also supports the amended version of the bill being considered tomorrow by the house va committee opm actions to downgrade va police are pay cuts and put veterans at risk va police specialize have specialized training in crisis intervention to help prevent veterans from harming themselves and others additionally as ninety percent of the officers are veterans themselves they have shared experiences which uniquely qualify them to interact with fellow veterans this is critical when veterans are in crisis they need help not harm this tragically this was tragically put in stark relief in march after VA social worker Nicholas Cruz was murdered at a VA clinic in Jasper Georgia demonstrating the bravery and dedication required of our VA officers the planned downgrades are even worse when considering VA police have other lucrative law enforcement opportunities outside of the VA for example in Topeka Kansas a GS five step one makes over forty one thousand dollars annually while the starting pay for a police officer in the city of topeka is over sixty five thousand dollars similarly a g s five step one in west haven connecticut makes forty eight thousand dollars annually while an entry-level police officer in the west haven police department makes a minimum of seventy four thousand dollars a year the va should do everything in its power to recruit and retain its police force while afg is pleased that some of the planned downgrades have been paused AFT still calls for the passage of H R eighty-ten. Furthermore, Congress should extend LEO status and what are commonly known as six C benefits to VA police. Currently, the definition of LEO in the federal code does not include VA police officers, and consequently they do not receive retirement benefits on par with other federal law enforcement officers. AFT strongly supports H R thirty-two twenty-six, the LEO equity act, which would grant six C benefits. This widely bipartisan bill has sixty-five co-sponsors including chairman bost and ranking member to kano the senate version of the bill has not been introduced in this congress but was introduced last congress by senators cory booker and then senator j. d. vance granting full leo status to v. a. police will improve recruitment and retention and keep these specialized officers with the veterans they are trained to serve additionally it is important to note that the v. a. previously endorsed this bill at a twenty twenty three hearing a. f. c. urges members of this committee to support legislation to grant sixty benefits to v- v a police i would also like to briefly touch on v a police realignment under osp police officers are still funded from the same budgets as medical center personnel this forces each v a director to choose between hiring a medical professional or v a police officer with priority often going to the healthcare provider afg recommends that congress provide a dedicated funding source for v a police to ensure that officers are not disadvantaged afg and the nvac and VAC look forward to working with the committee to improve the recruitment and retention of VA police. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you. So, therefore, thank you, uh, now we'd like to hear from uh, Ms. McNeil from the Government Accounting Accountability Office. Turn around.

Chairman Moran and Ranking Member Blumenthal and members of the committee, I am pleased to be here today to discuss GAO's examination of the physical security of VA's medical facilities. The VA employs a hundred and eighty-eight thousand health care workers and serves nine million enrolled veterans. Who keeps them safe? Over forty-three hundred officers, physical security specialists, and investigators, and eight hundred contract security guards. VA police officers play a unique and important role. They are often the first and last person that a veteran who may be in crisis, sees when they seek care at a VA medical facility. They have to balance their safety and security role with ensuring that there is a welcoming and open environment for our veterans. I hope the work that we did that was released today will help move the needle and get things moving in a direction that benefits veterans, the healthcare workers that serve them, and the police officers that protect them. We examined three issues in our review. First, we looked at criminal activity at VA medical facilities. VA police reported over seventy-four thousand crimes, at VA medical facilities in fiscal year twenty-four and twenty-five. Most were nonviolent, and crimes at facilities in urban areas were two times higher than in rural areas. Second, we examined the status of VA implementation of federal security requirements. It's a mixed story. VA implemented our recommendations from twenty-thirteen and twenty-fourteen, calling on them to make its risk assessment methodology aligned with federal security standards. But, for example, they still need to address our twenty eighteen recommendations, to revise their risk management policies, to better reflect federal standards and develop an oversight strategy to assess its risk management programs. And finally, we examined VA's processes for obtaining and incorporating security and threat information into its capital planning. We determined that VA's capital investment planning process is consistent with best practices and federal standards. The one issue we found was that two VISSNs failed to meet the VA goal to close ninety-five percent of security gaps identified through the capital planning process. The reason gave was that they were never told they were lagging behind. So we have a recommendation to address this in our released report. Now, central to our work was covert testing. We needed to test the current physical security situation at VA medical facilities, so we could shed light on the impact of their efforts to date. We chose thirty sites across the country in urban and rural areas, large medical centers and smaller clinics with a range of security levels. Unfortunately, we identified serious issues. While our testing was not generalizable, the results indicate a higher potential for system-wide failures. During these covert tests, we were able to carry prohibited weapons into thirty of thirty VA medical facilities. We were able to drink from large, clearly labeled alcohol bottles while inside the waiting rooms of twenty-five of twenty-six facilities. And in other facilities, we were able to sometimes walk into prohibited areas. While we didn't identify any criminal activity part of any VA staff, we were shocked that we could freely walk into these facilities with all kinds of things without being checked. That we could openly drink water out of a vodka bottle. This is especially concerning given that in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five over seventy four thousand crimes were committed at VA medical facilities. While the majority were nonviolent, over five thousand were weapons related crimes, and over six thousand were drug related crimes. This is a serious issue and needs to be addressed immediately in a strategic way with leadership support from the top. We have a lot of questions for VA. What's the progress to fill the vacancies for VA police officers? What more is VA going to do to support its police officers? What is the plan to address the over three thousand recommendations in the risk assessments that VA never responded to? If VA does all of these things, is it's gonna be enough to address the enterprise-wide failures that we identified? Is there a culture issue? Is it a a training issue? Is it a resources issue? Is there a need for more controls to ensure proper oversight? These are the type of questions that we'll be asking VA moving forward. Thank you again for inviting GAO to this important hearing. I look forward to answering any questions.

Thank you for your report and for your testimony. Um, let me start with Mister Hernandez, uh, and reference a VA social worker, Nicholas Cruz, who was killed at a shooting at a VA clinic in Jasper, Georgia. Um, tell me what oversight your office, the VA, does in conducting security for community-based outpatient clinics for CBOCs and to make certain that those facilities and the veterans that they serve are, and staff are afforded the same level of security at a larger VA facility.

Yes, sir. Uh, Senator, thank you for that question. Uh, the uh, the the the uh, CBOC in uh in Jasper was a uh federal security level two um uh facility, which means it was low to moderate. This was ascertained through what we call a modified infrastructure staffing tool, uh, excuse me, modified infrastructure security tool, which is a DHS developed tool that we use. It's a federal standard. Uh, we had, uh, had employed countermeasures there. We had a uniform security guard. We had a key entry, uh, to any of the, uh, clinical areas that only the staff had access to. Um, and we had, uh, practices that were practiced well. We had panic buttons that not only informed the va police and from states and locals uh or excuse me local police as well as the staff inside the building um so from a physical uh security stand point uh the counter measures in place were were uh on par with an fsl two uh facility and the uh the uh um the practices that they practiced were sound the individual came in he was under uh duress he was he was uh obviously having uh, uh, um, an episode he brought, was brought in by the, the person, uh, he, a veteran friend of his. It was an announced visit. Uh, the clinic, the clinician agreed to see him. The clinician keyed into the, uh, building, walked him back to his office, and that's where the shooting occurred, sir.

Um, Chief Allen, let me ask you, are you aware of the number of sea box, uh, there are none in Wichita itself. Um, but, the Dole VA center, um, manages, supervises, CBOCs across Kansas. Do you, are you aware of the security and, police protection that occurs at a CBOC at, our home state?

Senator, thank you for the question. Yes sir, at our CBOCs, that uh, Robert J. Dole is responsible for, we do not currently staff them with VA police. We do have memorandums of understanding with the local police, um, who we have a very good relationship with. And their response times, when they have responded, have been almost identical to our response times at our facility with VA police, within approximately two to four minutes on their responses.

I would guess in most instances the CBOC, uh, is two or three, four hours or more away from the Dole VA center.

That is correct, sir. We do have some there as far as approximately four hours away.

And, Mister Loeffler, you mentioned this in your testimony about uh, not uh, making certain that it's safe at a CBOC. Tell me what uh, I should know about this topic. Please.

Thank you for the question, Senator. Uh, as was mentioned, there, there is a lot of CBOCs that are not manned by VA police officers. With their specialized training, there is a lot of memorandums of understanding. with local law enforcement, but having a VA police officer and enough staff to have a VA police officer there, I think would pay dividends and assist the veterans far and above.

So, it, I mean, your, your point is it's practical for the VA to have a, an officer. I, I wonder how, I mean, just having a conversation with you, I wonder how this works in a remote location and how the staffing occurs. I, I guess we would start with we need full staffing. uh as the beginning premise uh but i'd be glad to hear what else you'd tell me

yes sir thank you for the question again uh there are other states i know that have c box that are manned by officers uh some of them are probably the same distance but they have officers i am not completely aware of their setup and how they have it i know there's some issues with being able to manage firearms and where they are within the facility and stuff and transporting them in that nature But if w- uh, I know having them there would help a veteran in crisis.

OK. Uh, Senator King.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, uh, first, uh, I just wanna be parochial for a minute at, at Togus, our veterans hospital in Maine, by the way, the first veterans hospital in the country. Um, we were forced to cut seven police vacancies because they were vacant as of this April vacancy cut, but they were vacant because the VA was reviewing uh the policies with regard to uh consistency standards of UA uh VA job descriptions so it was kind of a catch-twenty too, mister uh uh mister engelbaum can you give me some help on this one it seems to me this deserves a little review, the these positions were not vacant because nobody was paying attention, they weren't important they were vacant because you all had told them to hold them vacant while you did this review.

Yeah, um, absolutely, Senator, thank you so much. So, um, as part of the review, um, specific installations are, for example in this case medical centers were not directed to cut any specific positions. As was pointed out previously, a lot of times police previously had to compete within the medical center for, you know, authorizations and depending on how every individual, uh, medical center looked at it, those authorizations varied. Um, so, uh and uh chairman back to your point about a standard and that's really the point, we really didn't have a standard, and we still don't, we're in the middle of that and i'll talk to that very quickly if you wouldn't mind, uh but we are addressing that right now, so we had to go to a baseline to establish where we were based upon authorized funding and what people had, we are right now in the middle, uh we are conducting a facility by facility review specifically for the police force, it's gonna be done later on this fall, where we will have defined requirements, man power standards for every single installation, within the VA uh up front.

So, so we haven't nec-

I'll be happy to provide that once we get that complete.

So We haven't necessarily lost those seven positions.

We have not. In fact, Senator, to this date, even though based upon request we've already plussed up, as mentioned this morning hearing, we plussed up West LA by about eighty police officers, we plussed up OSP, asked for additional hundred and seven officers, we already plussed them up by additional hundred and seven. So we're reacting where we identify requirements,

Thank you.

but we are gonna have a holistic man power standard done for the entire VA later on this fall.

I I appreciate that. Mister Chairman, the other the other issue of course is pay, which has already been discussed. We did a little survey in sort of community rates. The the uh GS six starting salary, forty five thousand four O nine comes to twenty one eighty three an hour. So that's the benchmark. Uh, Brunswick Police Department where I live, uh, starting pay is uh thirty dollars and sixty nine cents an hour, almost nine dollars more. Patrol Officer Waterville Police Department, twenty eight dollars. patrol sergeant buxport thirty i'm sorry yeah uh twenty eight thirty one buxport thirty five dollars a school crossing guard in bath is sixteen seventy eight not far from the from the va rate so i i think that really makes the case and and these are we have to compete i mean when we go to hire people we've gotta compete with and the numbers i just gave you are all small towns in the in the vicinity of our of our sort of halfway between togus and the major seebok that we have in portland so uh i think the case is pretty clear that if we're gonna have qualified and able people we've gotta pay em a competitive rate so i hope that uh we can uh make that part of this discussion thank you thank you mr. engelbaum i look forward to that review thank you mr. chairman

you're welcome thank you sir kenting senator sheehy uh thanks everyone for being here i think first off uh it's always important to remember that uh You know, we're veterans, not victims. And I think, um, you know, wh- whether it's our VA security, whether it's our health care providers at our VA facilities, we we need to, uh, n- not, uh, encourage the victim ideology that, uh, unfortunately I think has been encouraged by many well-meaning Americans who wanna welcome our veterans home and maybe they didn't serve. And we victimize our veterans instead of treating them like the heroes they are and the w- and the volunteer warriors that they, that they are and were. Um, and I think that's a really important aspect that we have to have in our care, that we're proud of our service. Uh, we have earned benefits that, that we deserve to, to receive. But at the same time, uh, we're not veterans. Uh, we're not victims. Uh, we're veterans. So, regarding security of facilities, uh, community care is, uh, has been the law for the VA for some time. And, and we are obligated to provide choice to our veterans and their ability to benefit from community care when available. And of course, our security aspects, when we're talking about a VA facility, that could become the focus of a veteran's ire at the VA, even if that wasn't their clinic. If they're mad about something, if they're experiencing a crisis, they will oftentimes take out their anger at, at the nearest target they have. And unfortunately, that, that could be their VA facility. But, as you evaluate our, our security posture, it sounds like, uh, Miss McNeil, you, you made some very concerning discoveries in your assessments of the security posture. Uh, how does that extend to our community care network and how do you think about the community care network since that is an integral part of the VA uh, ecosystem? And how does that fold into your um, although it's not protected by VA police, uh, if those providers are part of this veteran ecosystem, uh, where does the community care model fall into this? And that that's for anybody to address.

Senator, um. One of the things that I I learned when I first uh came into this position is the unique nature of VA policing. You know, VA policing involves so much more than law enforcement. Uh, you know, as you mentioned, uh, many veterans, and I'm a veteran as well, uh, you know, lot of challenges. And uh, but when they come and they seek care, it it's more than just going to see the doctor. You know, the issues, the emotions, all the the frustrations that uh that, you know, we carry with us when we go to a facility. Uh, you know, Our VA police is, is, as was previously mentioned, they're the first ones that uh you see when you come to a facility. They're the last ones you see when you leave. And those VA police officers set the tone for that visit. And uh in the meantime, you know, all the the the the the disruptions and all the things that uh that they have to encounter, in addition to police policing is which adds to the uniqueness of our VA police. So uh so I I would offer that that sets the tone for for care. What about you?

Yeah, I I'd agree and complete, and I th- I think Uh, the VA police, uh, unfortunately, we have a lot of work to do as we've heard there, but I think, uh, also to your point, arguably the VA police will probably spend more time in the presence of that veteran than anybody else. I mean, the waiting area unfortunately is where our vets spend most of our time at the VA clinic. And, and arguably, you know, if they're regularly dealing with the same veteran who's having the same issues, you know, uh, there may be an occasion where if we know that veteran's being referred to community care, um, i- is there a, also a referral system to let that hey, you're gonna be receiving a veteran that is regularly having violent outbursts or is regularly having issues in the lobby. As we've had multiple assaults with this so that when that veteran shows up to a local clinic, they know that they're not gonna deny care, but they're aware that they may be dealing with a situation that they're not used to dealing with. They may be dealing with, uh, someone who's been trained in physical violence, who's experiencing a crisis, and, uh, and they need to be ready, uh, to deal with that. So, uh, I'd be curious if that's anywhere in our procedures, if it's not, uh, it's correct.

Yes sir, I'm Chief Allen.

Hi. Hi.

Um, Senator, one of the things that we have is called a, a disruptive behavior committee. And what that committee does is they review, there's a system that when the staff experiences any kind of disruptive behavior, no matter how minor it is, they can enter the information and their experiences into the system. And there is a committee that's very diverse, includes VA police, that reviews that information and whether it's a flag um that maybe requires more than one uh doctor or person to be in the room with that individual or in some situations can require that individual to come to the main facility where we do have VA police to receive their care. if the concern is significant enough of physical violence or any kind of harm. And that's another way of of ensuring that that individual is not receiving their care where there is not VA police. And we do see that happen on on a fairly consistent basis where that system is used. Yes, sir.

Senator Horono.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is for Mr. Neal. Like other facilities across the country, the VAPEX in hawaii and i understand that you visited the hawaii facility last year

yes yes senator

thank you for that uh but but the they they have had a very high vacancy rates for police officers and security assistants since the positions were allocated and when facilities were given fte caps at the end of last year the then medical director opted to cut vacant police positions of which there were quite a few in favor of preserving clinical positions and I think that was also an appropriate decision. So my question to you, uh two of them, has the department reassessed impacts to patients and staff safety post FTE caps?

Senator, thank you for that, now I'm gonna ask Mark Engelbaum to to follow up, but I will say that uh because of tho- those challenges, uh I think the Ho Hawaii um facility was my third facility. And and my message to, as I met with the hospital staff, was to find a balance. You know, uh, at least have a conversation with our VA police and and let it be a two-way conversation, instead of a unilateral one. I will offer

Yeah. Uh, Senator, uh, yes, well, let me, you know, on the on the police side, speaking for Mister Neal, but he can add more, uh, um, color to it. The VA constantly and VHA constantly reviews its security pauses with respect to,

Mm-hmm.

uh, respect to its its facilities, uh, across the board. With respect to the, the positions that you're referring to, I think you highlight some of the issues that we've faced, as I had previously mentioned,

Mm-hmm.

had mentioned in previous testimony. We first had to as, understand and establish a baseline. Um, the, the way that, that was what about, uh, and as was previously mentioned, doing that at a very fractured or institutional or level-based, uh, every single separate medical center is really not a way that's sustainable. That's one of the reasons that we did our consolidation and we're looking at this. So we're looking at this an entire entity from right now. I mentioned previously today, earlier, we are in the middle of a fundamental review where we are establishing firm man power standards for every single facility in the VA system. That will be done later on this fall, and I have committed to to provide that, um, to uh to this committee. Once that is complete, we are going to man to the standard, whatever that may be. In the interim we've already addressed and have tackled individual request, uh, plussing up the police in certain locations such as west of l. a. as mentioned this morning, another hundred and seven authorizations elsewhere. So we we have a focused effort on this, um, and, uh, not only from the reclassification but specifically on the manpower standards, ma'am.

So, the VA, uh, writ large, uh, is already facing all kinds of staffing issues, shortages, uh, recruiting retention issues with the medical personnel, et cetera. And of course we've had hearings in this committee where there have been massive cuts to the VA workforce and possibility of thousands of uh other you know thousands more in cuts so there's uh uh instability uh from what i can see regarding the va and we're not doing the best for our veterans because of that now uh one of the vapics in hawaii could reassess it's uh cutting uh decision so how about the department exempting police from fta caps to ensure that the originally identified needs of each facility are met

um Yes, Senator. Yeah, uh,

Nail.

uh, the FTE caps as mentioned before actually was the UMD authorizations, you know, that we based. You have to do something about what you actually have available funding to do, since we didn't have a structure or a man-powered document, so we had to create that. But, what we have done. They're not exempt, but what we care about is, are what are the requirements? You, outside out foundation which we have now established, you just can't say this is a requirement of valid or not. So we've established that, we've got our baseline, we know how much money we have budgeted for, we have a system set up where we can validate what the actual requirement is, and we are now going through and developing the manpower standards. So there's no question whatsoever what the actual requirement is. So, to answer your question, ma'am, yes, we are developing that standard.

Mm-hmm.

We're gonna clearly know what the requirement is, that is independent of any specific medical center staff. It is specific to the police, and we are going to man to that level.

Although one would think that, you know, each specific place, I mean, we're talking about millions of veterans, being cared for. And there should be input from the people who are actually on the ground at the p- at the facility, as to what their security needs are. So would that, but would there be an opportunity for that kind of input?

Yes, ma'am. Uh, thank you, thank you very much for that question, Senator. The, their input is uh being taken. Right now I have a team of investigators and inspectors. They're criminal investigators, but they're being dual-purposed, to go down to all one hundred and thirty-nine police service units to do deep dive assessments. In that, we we do uh surveys. uh we do interviews so the input from the ground is being uh ascertained

mmm

to to determine what the requirement is for staffing contracting support services the full wrap around service for the police service unit

and when when would the determinations be made as to each facility

we i expect report in first quarter fy twenty seven ma'am

twenty twenty seven

eh eh this fall

thank you mister chairman

thank you senator Uh, let me go back to maybe a basic question. What is the The vote has been taken, yes. requirements and are they standardized for employment, uh, within the VA as a law enforcement officer?

Can you reach over to turn that off?

The requirements for a law enforcement officer, we're working those standards right now, sir. We we've just classified, I think, the sixteen position descriptions, uh, working with our human capital, uh, uh, partners. Uh, and those standards have been encapsulated in those Uh, those position descriptions. The basic entry police officers, those are outlined in the position description as well, sir.

And um, so you're saying they're being determined now, but that doesn't tell me whether they existed before the determination started.

They, they have been determined, the position descriptions, we have them, they're complete, they're signed, they're approved.

I see.

Uh, prior to that, we had. a hundred and thirty-nine different ways of doing position descriptions, uh, throughout the VA because they were being classified at the, uh, at the facility and the visiting level.

Got it. Got it. And what will those, what are those qualifications? Now, how do they compare to, we heard, um, Senator, uh, King, talk about, uh, comparisons of salary and compensation. Are they, how, how do they, to compare to someone who's applying to be a, police officer at, yeah, Mr. Lefler who's Topeka and Connecticut is,

Right.

as his examples that,

Yeah.

how do they compare in qualifications and training and certification as a law enforcement officer at the police department in the same town?

So we worked together with our human capital partners. I had my subject matter experts there. We feel that the position descriptions that were developed are very competitive. They start out at a baseline of a a G a GS six police officer, go up to a GS seven, the first line supervisor will be a nine and the second line supervisor will be an eleven. So we think we feel they're very competitive. Uh, in addition, there are incentives that we can provide along the way to ensure that the, the, their competition with the local community can be commensurate.

Mister Leifler, do you know about what the, uh, Mister Hernandez is talking about? Have you seen this, the classifications, the qualifications?

I have not seen it yet, on my level, sir.

Uh, you, I would welcome you the opportunity to see those and comment to us, uh, in, in writing about how you see the, that, that work product.

Thank you, sir.

That makes sense?

I would I would absolutely love to do so.

Thank you. Uh, it was, let me make sure that we hear from uh, Ms. McNeil. Um. Doctor Neal said that because of what's taken place at the VA in recent times, in this administration, that many of the, and I think I'm saying reasonably what uh Doctor Neal said, many of the things of that are included as your recommendations have been met. Do you, can you respond to that?

Uh, we have seen no evidence that our recommendations have been addressed by the VA. Um, just going back to twenty eighteen, the update that we received from the VA in April was that they are drafting policies and that they're in the review stage because our

Mr. Neal, Doctor Neal.

Y- yes, I'll I'll I'll I uh wanna clarify that I said that we are are in the process of meeting those requirements even before I read the uh GAO report you know the things that were outlined and the concerns were on my list. you know, a as the new Assistant Secretary as I did my assessments and I visited the field. So, so we are getting after many of those things, but again, I was not aware of what the report said until a couple of days ago.